Talk:Emporia State Hornets

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page not moved: no consensus Ground Zero | t 18:38, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

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Emporia State Hornets → Emporia State Hornets and Lady Hornets – Unlike the men, the women are called the "Lady Hornets". Changing the name of the article would include the name for the women's teams. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 14:37, 25 August 2014 (UTC) --Relisted. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 13:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC) Corkythehornetfan^Talk 10:38, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

• Do it I'm good with it. Be bold. Take action. Set up some redirects for the original page and Emporia State Lady Hornets too.--Paul McDonald (talk) 20:57, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I've moved the page and am currently working on getting all of the links redirected. Would you mind closing the move? I'm not sure on how to do that. Corkythehornetfan^Talk 23:17, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment – once you start an RM, you should wait for it to complete. Dicklyon (talk) 05:08, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • My fault don't blame the other editor, I encouraged Corky to be WP:BOLD--Paul McDonald (talk) 11:19, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose – the title Emporia State Hornets seems to be broad enough to cover both, even though the Lady Hornets have their own name. Per WP:AND, then, the we should avoid the "and". Dicklyon (talk) 01:27, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

What about the Oklahoma State Cowboys and Cowgirls, the Wyoming Cowboys and Cowgirls, the Texas Tech Red Raiders and Lady Raiders, the Old Dominion Monarchs and Lady Monarchs, the Central Missouri Mules and Jennies, etc.? The list can keep going on... Corkythehornetfan^Talk 02:16, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

And it should go on and be dealt with, on a case-by-case basis. The Cowboys/Cowgirls and Mules/Jennies cases are different names and should be retained in this form. Some are cases of the women's team named being an abbreviated version of the men's and arguably should be retained in this form (Austin Peay Governors and Lady Govs and Texas Tech Red Raiders and Lady Raiders). But most cases are just redundant, and should be Emporia State Hornets, Old Dominion Monarchs, Lindenwood Lions. Some must be simple, like Oklahoma Sooners, because there is no "Lady Sooners". Many of these articles also seem like fan-cheering excuses to create redundant articles on the team names, when we already have separate articles on the football teams, basketball teams, etc. Plenty of these need to be converted into disambiguation pages that direct to the actual team articles.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:24, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

PS: The proposal below to use names of the form "Institution_name sports" for WP:SUMMARY articles, also including non-team sports, would completely solve this problem, across all such articles.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:54, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

• Move it to be conforming like the other 'Lady' Teams It isn't like the move would be some sort of name misnomer like a Oklahoma Sooners and Lady Sooners article. If you look on this link you will notice that ESU's women's teams are referred to as the Lady Hornets. If you have a team that has lady in the title such as: Georgia Bulldogs and Lady Bulldogs, Old Dominion Monarchs and Lady Monarchs or even the absurd sounding (no offense intended) Delta State Statesmen and Lady Statesmen it should have both names in the title, and possible categories associated with it.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 23:59, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
  • "Conforming" with what? There is no Wikipedian policy, process or principle being followed in such redundant, tumid naming choices, while several are being violated.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:24, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - I've noticed variances across colleges. Actually I think most of them are a FAIL, because they should be called "<College Name> Sports" to avoid these types of silly stupid arguments over male/female naming. I think LONG article names should be avoided unless there is a shorter way to do it. In this situation, they are all Hornets, but why can't everyone just use "Sports" in the article title instead of the name of the teams, huh? It's simple and it works for all situations! • Sbmeirow • Talk • 02:31, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes, but "sports" wouldn't be capitalized in a name like that.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:38, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose, especially for cases like this where the ladies' team name isn't different from the men's (completely different, as in Central Missouri Mules and Jennies and Wyoming Cowboys and Cowgirls, or the former an abbreviation of the latter, as in Austin Peay Governors and Lady Govs and Texas Tech Red Raiders and Lady Raiders, and even that last case is iffy). Every case like this is pointlessly redundant and long-winded, just to be politically correct (and failing at it; see below).

Rationale that applies to my struck !vote

Unless it's a case like "Foobarbaz Grumpleflabs and Lady Grumps", names in the form "Foobarbaz Grumpleflabs" are adequate. "Lady" is just a modifying adjective here. At some point there'll probably be mixed-sex collegiate leagues in some sports (aren't there already in some of the less "industrialized" ones?), and we would not then change the article names to "Emporia State Hornets and Lady Hornets and Mixed Hornets", we'd realized that it should have been Emporia State Hornets Emporia State University sports (because not all sports are team sports and the team name is not independently notable by itself) all along.

PS: It's funny to me that the political correctness actually backfires; it implies that "Lady" Hornets team members aren't really Hornets players, but some kind of lesser, qualified, wannabe Lions players. I didn't hang out with jocks in college much, but I distinctly recall two UNM Lady Lobos expressing how much it irritated them that they were even individually referred to as Lady Lobos instead of Lobos. It's exactly the same as referring to someone as a "woman doctor" for no reason, or saying "Margaret Thatcher was the female Prime Minister of the UK from [date to date]".  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:54, 24 August 2014 (UTC) (trimmed)

• Oppose rename; move to Emporia State University sports instead, as essentially proposed by User:Sbmeirow, above. (See also the ongoing Talk:Lindenwood Lions#Requested move 19 August 2014, Talk:Austin Peay State Governors and Lady Govs#Requested move 2 & Talk:Missouri Western State Griffons#Requested move discussions.) Not all sports are team sports, but should be covered at this article anyway, and the team name is not independently notable, so it does not need its own article. Other articles of this sort also need to be renamed as institutional sports articles (WP:SUMMARY style, as this one already is, linking to specific articles on the basketball, football, baseball, etc., teams). Titles like Emporia State Hornets (and redir from Emporia Hornets or vice versa), and Emporia State Lady Hornets (Emporia Lady Hornets redir) should disambiguate and send readers to the proper basketball, baseball, etc., team articles.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  00:17, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think many Wikipedians would agree with naming athletic teams articles with the word sports at the end. I'm 50/50 with that idea; I like it, but yet I don't. I like it because it covers all of the sports and non-sports like you said, but I don't like it because it doesn't describe what the team names are. In most universities when the students graduate, they are called whatever the sports teams are called. (i.e. The University of Kansas athletics teams are called Jayhawks, so the alumni are Jayhawks) If anything, I would leave out the "University" part. I'd say just name it Emporia State athletics or Emporia State sports. I would say Athletics sounds better. Right now, I say just leave the article as is (Emporia State Hornets) until the issue can be resolved as whole on Wikipedia for ALL sports team articles. Corkythehornetfan^Question? 00:27, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

The four concurrent RMs on the same issue are probably sufficient to determine consensus. I didn't say anything about "non-sports". The sports already covered at these articles are not all in the "athletics" divisions of the institutions anyway, which is sometimes limited to track and field. Our heads need not asplode every time either "sport[s]" or "athletic[s]"/"athlete" are used just because they have varying shades of meaning. WP already has too many such arguments. That said, it would be better to have Emporia State University athletics, relegate intramurals to their own article, and deal with complaints that "athletics" is a narrower term (to some) than the scope of the article, than to continue these lame Emporia State Hornets and Lady Hornets rename ideas article after article. Let's just standardize on something simple and basically bullet-proof. Leaving out the "University" part doesn't work on all such articles due to ambiguities (potentially including this one - does every school kid in the world already know that there is no US or nation state named Emporia?), and it would be better to be both precise and consistent than introduce yet another thing, based on nothing but shortness, for people to argue about on a case-by-case basis, article after article.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  00:35, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I have posted a question regarding this on the WP college football project talk page. I don't really care what it is called but I like a standardized method so I know what to expect on each page. I personally agree with the argument of both teams being called Hornets or in the OSU case "Cowboys and Cowgirls" my Support conformity vote was just that. If many of the current team and lady team pages were simply say Texas Tech Red Raiders and if CTHF brought this up I would have voted oppose.

That being said if all of a sudden the hundreds of college teams would be the [University athletics] then Emporia State athletics must be the name for two reasons 1. the university's common name 2. the college of emporia's athletic teams. Also of note what about Oklahoma athletics, Oklahoma State athletics which could imply the entire state or what about Oakland athletics, Philadelphia Athletics, or UMKC Kansas City athletics; I seriously doubt that the baseball people would be too thrilled with someone wanting to create a dab page to accommodate people interested in smaller college programs. I support the current system as is.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:42, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - The consensus naming pattern for American college sports articles is well established across the WikiProjects for college football, college basketball and college baseball, and all of the other college sports follow the same patterns. It is composed of the university or college's short name (e.g., "Florida State University" becomes "Florida State") which is added to the team's mascot (e.g., "Seminoles") for a complete team name ("Florida State Seminoles"). The only variations on this naming pattern are those in which a minority of women's teams still retain some formulation of "Lady ____" in their official team names. These are not only the consensus naming conventions on Wikipedia, but they track the official names of the teams as well as the majority practice in the mainstream sports media. Anyone wanting to change the Wikipedia college sports naming conventions to something different needs to explain why we should abandon best practice under the Wikipedia article naming guidelines, including WP:COMMONNAME. When established consensus, the official name and the common name are all in agreement, there's really not much to discuss. Bottom line: SMcCandlish's proposal above demonstrates unfamiliarity with these conventions, and should be rejected. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:23, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Comment - I agree that we should stick to naming conventions on Wikipedia, but I feel the male/female naming method is silly because they are all students of the same college. Splitting them at the top level for male and female feels more of a P.C. "politically correct" thing or sexist thing than grouping them all together at a top level. Earlier I proposed "sports" as a concept but I didn't put much though into the best word because I was just trying to make a conceptual point about being generic that included both male and female, and I agree that "athletics" (stated by User:UCO2009bluejay) is the better way to go, if trying to name it generically at the top level. I understand that challenging established naming methods isn't an easy thing to change. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 04:38, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry but you have misinterpreted my statement it was in regards to another users proposal. I am opposed to using athletics because it will cause multiple issues in naming schemata.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 04:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

• @Sbmeirow: I'm guessing that you are not a regular editor of American college sports articles, but found this discussion because you regularly edit articles related to Kansas. If so, please tolerate my explanations in the well-intended spirit in which they are given. This article is the main article for the Emporia State University varsity sports program, which is known by its WP:COMMONNAME, and it is the "parent" article for a family of related Emporia State Hornets sports articles. The Emporia State family of articles are not particularly well-developed yet, but let's take a look at another more typical NCAA Division I sports program whose family of Wikipedia articles is well-developed:

1. Florida Gators - University of Florida intercollegiate sports program, overview of all 19 sports teams

2. Florida Gators baseball - individual team article

3. Florida Gators men's basketball - individual team article

4. Florida Gators women's basketball - individual team article

5. Florida Gators cross country - combined team article for men's and women's teams in same sport

6. Florida Gators football - individual team article

7. Florida Gators men's golf - individual team article

8. Florida Gators women's golf - individual team article

9. Florida Gators women's gymnastics - individual team article

10. Florida Gators women's lacrosse - individual team article

11. Florida Gators women's soccer - individual team article

12. Florida Gators softball - individual team article

13. Florida Gators swimming and diving - combined team article for men's and women's teams in same sport

14. Florida Gators men's tennis - individual team article

15. Florida Gators women's tennis - individual team article

16. Florida Gators track and field - combined team article for men's and women's teams in same sport

17. Florida Gators women's volleyball - individual team article

And there are also other articles related to the individual teams (see, e.g., List of Florida Gators football All-Americans, 2006–07 Florida Gators men's basketball team, List of Florida Gators head football coaches, etc.), and such naming schemes are carried through an entire family of categories, too (see Category:Florida Gators). As you can see from these typical examples, there are clearly established article naming systems that apply not only to the primary team articles, but to the entire family of related articles and categories. All American college sports teams follow these naming conventions, too, and the only variations are those where the women's teams have a distinctly different name from the men's teams (see, e.g., Georgia Bulldogs and Lady Bulldogs, Georgia Bulldogs football, Georgia Lady Bulldogs basketball). Hopefully, others will find this example naming system helpful in this discussion. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:50, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support requested name change but wholly reject SMcCandlish's proposal. The evidence for moving Emporia State Hornets to Emporia State Hornets and Lady Hornets is there for me to support that request. However, SMcC's proposal of changing literally tens of thousands of article names, navbox names, and category names to "Foo University sports" is off-base and ridiculous, frankly speaking. Quite literally 98%+ of media outlets refer to United States college sports teams, i.e. WP:COMMONNAME, to "Foo Nickname." Also, it seems as if SMcC is attempting to (wrongfully) standardize all college sports names so that he doesn't have to be bothered participating in more consensus-reaching discussions on specific schools whose nickname might be different by gender – it's as if the proposal is "I'm personally tired of participating in these (very few) case-by-case discussions and so, to save myself trouble in the future, I'm going to attempt to unilaterally screw over broad-reaching and historical consensus of these naming conventions." There has never been something on Wikipedia I've ever been more opposed to in my ~8 years as an active editor than this nonsense. Strongest oppose possible to that. Jrcla2 (talk) 18:02, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose the proposed change. I suggest following the precedent used at Tennessee Volunteers. When women's sports teams became the "Lady Volunteers", the name for the umbrella article Tennessee Volunteers was not changed. Instead, a redirect was created for Tennessee Lady Volunteers directing viewers to the umbrella article. That seems like the best way to deal with it for Emporia State as well -- create Emporia State Lady Hornets as a redirect to Emporia State Hornets. (If there were something gender-specific about the mascot name, I might adopt a different view, but there is nothing gender-specific about "Volunteers" or "Hornets".) I am also strongly opposed to SMcC's proposal for the reasons articulated by Jrcla. Cbl62 (talk) 19:37, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Somebody has already created the redirect at Emporia State Lady Hornets, so I think this is already fixed. Cbl62 (talk) 19:38, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

• Weak oppose: Per Dicklyon et al. While 'cowboys' is an implicitly male term, 'hornet' seems gender-neutral and encompasses both male hornets and female hornets. The proposed name is also undesirable due to it implying that hornets are male by default. If we want to split the name to mention both male and female hornets explicitly, some modifier should be added to clarify the male hornet name as well. Also, why list the males first? How about "Emporia State Lady Hornets and Gentlemen Hornets"? No thank you. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:53, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

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