Talk:Emma Frost/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Emma Frost. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Endsong events

Someone changed the Endsong events to conclude that Emma could not host the Phoenix because she was "cold and cynical" as explained in Warsong #5. In Endsong, it makes it pretty clear that only Omega level mutants can be proper hosts of the Phoenix Force and Emma not being one is the reason why it was consuming her so easily. The Warsong events had not happened yet during Endsong, so I think it is rather unnecessary to reference Warsong in Endsong. Finally, the quote in Warsong being used is mainly about Frost regretting how she trained the Cuckoos wrong to become so distant and aloof. It was not about how people with full human emotions can host the Phoenix Force or not. It goes:

Celeste: No. You told me yourself -- I am too weak. I can't control the Phoenix -- Emma: Celeste... Please... Oh Celeste, I trained you so stupidly -- tried to make you cold and cynical. Because that's how I survived. But you're stronger than that. Stronger than me. I'm thinking... I'm hoping... that's why the the Phoenix chose you, Celeste...

There is absolutely no conclusive proof stating that Emma's lack of human emotions denied her the ability to properly be a Phoenix host. Actually, one can argue that Emma shows more emotional range that any one of the Cuckoos, yet Celeste was able to wield the Phoenix Force better than Emma. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phantasmex (talk • contribs) 16:55, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

* Firstly Warsong is a sequel to Endsong and that in itself justifies its mention in Endsong since a lot was actually explained in the series. In Endsong they don't say such a thing about why Emma couldn't host it, all Emma says is that "I'm not strong enough" which was never explained in context.(Emotional strength or Raw power strength) Back then people assumed that its because she's not an Omega Level Mutant.(Raw power strength) However Warsong has come out, contradicted that theory and explained what Emma meant by not being strong enough. Oh and BTW in Endsong they actually say both Omega Level Mutants and Psychics can act as hosts for the force.(Phoenix Endsong #3 - Scene where Emma and Scott talk to the Shiar Commander). Which is the first contradiction in that Theory where only Omega mutants can act as proper hosts.

The Hunger is what makes the Phoenix so hard to control...we see this in Emma's dialogue in Endsong, Jean stated it plenty a time. In Endsong Kid Omega(An Omega Mutant) was unable to satisfy the Phoenix's Hunger for love and it abandoned him. Once the Cuckoos and Emma channeled the love of all the X-Men into Jean she was finally able to control the hunger. You're also forgetting that Celeste is not an Omega Level mutant and Rachel Grey has never been cited as an Omega level mutant and they both are cited as hosts of the force. Which is another further contradiction on panel to the theory that only Omega Mutants can act as proper hosts. And furthermore this whole Omega/Phoenix theory is based on assumption. The reason was clearly explained by Emma on panel right before Celeste got full control. Even the choice of words is a direct reference to her experience in the prequel Phoenix Endsong.

"Celeste: No. You told me yourself -- I am too weak. I can't control the Phoenix -- Emma: Celeste... Please... Oh Celeste, I trained you so stupidly -- tried to make you cold and cynical. Because that's how I survived. But you're stronger than that. Stronger than me. I'm thinking... I'm hoping... that's why the the Phoenix chose you, Celeste..."

I highlighted the bit...Celeste is stronger than that,(Stronger then what? Being cold and cynical) that's why the Phoenix chose her. .

That is the difference between Emma and Celeste and that is the reason why Emma, Mindee and Phoebe can't host it. Note It's not about raw power because Emma actually states that she is "much, much stronger"(Warsong #4) then the Cuckoos powerwise in the Warsong Series when she takes over Sublimes machine.(The third contradiction in this whole ordeal whereby people assume that Emma is not strong enough in the raw power sense. If Emma is stronger then the Cuckoos powerwise then Emma is strong enough to host the Phoenix. However it's not about raw physical power it's about emotional power) It's about being emotinally different to Jean, Rachel and Celeste. That is more conclusive proof then the Omega Level Mutant assumption, which was never stated on panel and has been contradicted on panel. Not only that but the Warsong explanation continues from the intial depictions of the Cosmic Phoenix Force which changed once bonded to Jean and became addicted to her humanity. Once her desires were exploited by Mastermind the Phoenix's hunger emerged and drove it insane.ExodusCloak 17:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

In Endsong, there is an entire subplot concerning the Shi'ar wanting to kill Quentin Quire because him being an Omega class mutant makes him a potential host for the Phoenix Force. This is no mere unfounded "assumption." The theory that Omega psychic mutants have affinity to the Phoenix is stated quite clearly in Endsong #2 and Endsong #3.

1. Shi'ar Helmsmen: The Phoenix may be injured now, but an Omega mutant could be a host, or give it the strength it needs. (Endsong #2 page 17)

2. Emma: This isn't a coincidence, Scott. He's an Omega level mutant, just like Jean--- (Endsong #3 page 6)

3. Shi'ar Commander: We don't have time for this. The Omega is running north... If traces of the Phoenix have survived, he could become a host. (Endsong #3 page 15)

4. Cyclops: We were prepared to destroy Dark Phoenix -- because we know what she's done. But Quentin Quire is innocent.
Shi'ar Commander: There is no difference. As a potential host, he could--
Cyclops: By your reasoning, we should kill any mutant with psychic powers and omega potential. (Endsong #3 page 16)

I highlighted the bits that shows where the theory of why Emma cannot properly host the Phoenix Force, evidencing that the reason behind Emma's inability to become a real host stems from her not being an Omega mutant. No, nothing is stated outright as, "Emma Frost could not host the Phoenix because she is not an Omega mutant." It's a theory that is derived from the dialog and plot of Endsong and it is no more an "assumption" as your theory that Emma Frost's "cold and cynical" personality was the main reason of her not being able to host the Force. The 4th quotes clearly states the notion that mutants that have psychic powers and omega potential (not "or") are the ones who are the potential hosts of the Phoenix. So your contradiction #1 is refuted there.

In Endsong, the Phoenix did not abandon Quentin because he "was unable to satisfy the Phoenix's Hunger for love and it abandoned him." The Phoenix didn't even consider Quentin a host. It dismissed him because he promised to show her what love was, and when she resurrected Sophie only to have Sophie blow him off, he failed to do what he promised. And in New X-Men 154, Quentin is eventually shown to be a Phoenix avatar in the White Hot Room. So if he was "unable to satisfy the Phoenix's Hunger," in Endsong, how did he become an eventual avatar in the future?

The fact that Rachel or Celeste have not been officially stated as Omega class does not contradict the theory that Omega level mutants are the ones who can potentially properly host the Phoenix Force. If those two were ever stated as not being Omega class, that would be the contradiction. If anything, Endsong set the precedence that Omega class is a strong consideration for being a proper host, else the entire subplot about killing Quentin was worthless. So that is the reason why your contradiction #2 is unwarranted, because it's not a real contradiction unless Rachel or Celeste are stated as not being Omega. Lack of proof (officially stating Rachel and Celeste are Omegas) is not the same as proof of absence (of them not being Omegas).

Your contradiction #3 states that Emma is raw powerwise stronger than Celeste, yet Celeste was able to host the Phoenix Force while Emma could not, meaning that raw power is not a requisite for being a proper Phoenix host. However, under the theory that Omega class mutants are the ones who can potentially host the Phoenix Force correctly, there is no contradiction. By definition, Omega mutants are those who have limitless potential. It is not their current raw powerlevel, but their overall future potential that is taken into account.

As far as Emma being "emotionally different" from Jean, Rachel, or Celeste making her unable to host the Phoenix, that is just conjecture itself. Rachel is far more hotheaded than her mother or Emma. She went on a space mission with the initial intent of killing the Shi'ar involved in the mass murdering of her family. Celeste, like the rest of the Cuckoos, were described as being "quite, obedient, and reserved," basically emotionally detached from others. The idea that Emma's emotional personality being a factor in not being a host is just as much conjecture on your part.

The panel of Warsong in discussion is under heavy interpretation. While you believe that it clearly is stating the reasons why Emma could not host the Phoenix but Celeste could, all I see is Emma lamenting over her regret of raising the Cuckoos in her image. The fact that Emma says, "I'm thinking... I'm hoping..." doesn't really give much definitive credence to what she is saying. If anything, it's just Emma's hope that the Phoenix chose Celeste because she is somehow a good person. And about Mastermind, the Uncanny panel states, "He screams. Unable to cope. He runs. Unable to escape. He drowns. He is, after all, only human -- a man of limited awareness, limited power, limited ability, transformed in a twinkling into a god." It seems more of his inability to comprehend such massive power due to his limitations. If so, it would be more in line with the Omega theory, because Omega mutants have unlimited potential rather than non-Omegas who's powers are finite.

In any case, I think that your "emotional hunger" theory, while a plausible interpretation, is not as conclusive as you think and that it is rather more conjecture and interpretation on your part over Emma's vague line in Warsong. I am willing to not conclude that Emma not being an Omega as being the reason she could not host the Phoenix Force, even though I think that it is a more substantiated theory than your emotional hunger one and is not contradicted in panel as you say. But I'd rather not see that the wiki have your theory as being the definitive one.

Fair enough, there will be a 3rd installment, and we'll get to see from then on. I think the latest edit you made is a fair one. Mainly because if we go by your Omega theory that would mean Celeste is an Omega Level Mutant...which brings up a whole lot of other issues. 86.43.166.207 11:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the final opinion, but if you're going to cite alternate timelines and futures as evidence to the Omega theory, then consider the "What if...?" 2nd Series, #79 where Storm attempts to pilot the shuttle upon its entry to earth in place of Jean. It ends in disaster, but Storm emerges as Storm-Phoenix and manages to rule with the power of the Phoenix for a significant amount of time. If an Omega mutant with psychic powers is the theory, then Storm, an alpha mutant with limited potential and no psychic powers, is the exception. Certainly there is evidence for the emotional basis of the Phoenix host as Jean's doomed attempt is referenced as emotive enough to reach the Phoenix, as well as its eventually corruption, the lines Emma says to Celeste, and Storm's alternate storyline int he "What if...?" Luminum 21:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Good Point, and there's also Korvus' ancestor in the Uncanny X-Men arc and the bug from Endsong #1 who were hosts for the Force and they aren't even mutants or psychics.

Xavier from the Spotlight on the Starjammers #2 was a host. And there was Feron another non-mutant who was it's first host and then Giruad IRRC. 86.43.162.75 15:11, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

In the most recent Phoenix What if Rachel states that the Phoenix reacts poorly to negative emotions...it causes the host to lose control and become consumed. Similar to what happened to Emma and how Celeste could act as a host.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2296/whatifdcp0032rb1.jpg 86.43.171.190 (talk) 21:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Greg Paks thoughts on the situation:

http://www.brokenfrontier.com/columns/details.php?id=872 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.171.27 (talk) 14:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Diamond Form Immunity to Psionics

This ability has been inconsistent even under Morrisons pen but in the most recent occassion they have stated that she's immune to telepathy in diamond form(Warsong). It's an assumption to assume that it's only low level telepathy when Cassandra Nova on two occasions once on Cerebra and once without it couldn't detect Emma in diamond or read her mind in diamond. In Phoenix Warsong 1000 Cuckoos linked together couldn't get through...which is hardly Low Level telepathy.

Under Morrisons pen Emma was shown to access her powers in Diamond Form when she sensed the Phoenix while her and Beast were stranded and she also used her powers while in Diamond in her confrontation with Jean in New X-Men #139 where she tried to telepathically fight back so that in itself makes the whole occurence very iffy since Emma is not suppose to be able to access her telepathy in Diamond Form.

No-Girl is not a true telepath her powers are Chemical based, she emits Psycho-Chaff...it's not psionic but Chemical based.

I'm going to change it back for now, because the only occurence where Telepathy got through was an occurence where Emma had access to her powers in Diamond Form and in the most recent case they mentioned she is immune to telepathy. Not partially immune or semi-immune but immune. 86.43.162.75 14:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

In the instance you're mentioning, it's only an assumption that Emma was telepathically fighting back. If anything, I would interpret the confrontation with Jean Grey as Emma using her diamond form to force Jean out. You can see this in the panel where Emma is in diamond form and telling Jean that the situation she's reliving is none of her business. Jean asks if Emma thinks she can really protect herself against her onslaught when Emma is envisioning herself in diamond form. At the end of the struggle when Emma is barely holding Jean off, she's in her normal form. Emma makes no attempts to attack Jean, she only attempts to shield her own thoughts, which isn't working. And besides this, psychic shielding isn't an ability that requires the user to be a psychic, as seen by the fact that other X-Men were trained by Xavier to shield their thoughts, even to "level 8" in Wolverine's case. So the situation where Emma was susceptible to Jean's psychic Phoenix attack and Jean's return from Asteroid M were not necessarily examples of Emma accessing her telepathy while in diamond form, instead equally supporting the idea that Emma is susceptible to powerful psychic attacks even while in diamond form.Luminum 08:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Well in the Asteroid M case Emma would have to have had access her telepathy in her Diamond Form in order to decipher Jeans telepathic emissions as Beast couldn't feel anything when Jean approached them. Because logically if that was the case both should have noticed the telepathic emissions. It's just one of those inconsistencies where she was able to use her telepathy and diamond form like in Astonishing X-Men #5 and World of War Hulk: X-Men #3.

http://upload5.postimage.org/400583/photo_hosting.html

As for the Phoenix incident, Jean wasn't in Emma's thoughts, Jean enfolded them into her own thoughts. So Emma couldn't have been merely trying to shield her own thoughts from Jean as they were in Jeans mind. Not Emma's. Therefore Emma had to have had access to her telepathic powers in Diamond Form in order to severe and undo that link. http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p09ec3.jpg

She didn't just change into Diamond Form here...and start trying to push Jean out http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p14zz9.jpg

She was already in Diamond Form in here http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p09ec3.jpg

As you can see Emma who was already in Diamond Form this entire fight suddenly tries to fight back, it's not mere thought shielding since we're in Jeans mind not Emma's. She manages to severe the link for a few seconds but then gets taken onto the Astral Plane again and tries to protect herself. Jean says "Emma do you honestly think you can protect yourself from this" and projects an illusion of every child Emma lost. Weakening Emma's defences and allowing her to access the Hong Kong thought where Emma manages to resist even though still in bits. http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p15fl9.jpg http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p16hv5.jpg http://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p17km8.jpg

Sometime between here http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p14zz9.jpg and here: http://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p17km8.jpg Emma changes out of Diamond Form. But the main point is that she had to have had access to her powers in Diamond Form. It wasn't just mere thought-shielding it was undoing Jeans enfolding of thoughts. Which makes it just another inconsistency...I don't know if Morrison intentionally did or it was another art inconsistency because earlier on in his arc Cassandra Nova(Who was shown to be more powerful then that Jean at the time)couldn't even do it, even when she was boosted on Cerebra. As the same could be said about whether Joss or Christos Gage intentionally allowed Emma to access her powers in Diamond Form or it was an art inconsistency. The only proof we have to go by is panel wording. In Carey's X-Men we know that Emma can't use her powers while in Diamond Form because it was worded on panel. And we know that Emma is immune to telepathy in Diamond Form because it was worded on Panel by Cassandra Nova and In Phoenix Warsong.

As for that Level 9 thing, Wolverine said that his resistance to probing is due to Xavier installing level 9 Psi-Shields in his mind. But yeah a lot of Xaviers X-Men would have been conditioned to try and prevent probing and mind control but also a lot of the shielding would have come from Xavier placing Psi-shielding blocks in the X-Mens minds like how Emma did to her Minions. Hmm just found another Morrison inconsisteny... http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xmen11609yt9.jpg 86.43.162.75 13:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Given all this discussion, I still added it in, noting simply that it's depiction has been inconsistent and that the level is of her immunity is unknown.Luminum (talk) 04:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Phoenix Endsong does not prove Emma has latent telekinesis.

In Emma's Powers and Abilities section, someone cited Phoenix Endsong to prove Emma possesses latent telekinesis. This, however, is an erroneous citation. The situation described, where Emma blocks the Phoenix from absorbing Scott's eye beams, was not necessarily a product of Emma's telekinesis. The illustrated bubble appearing around Scott's head is most likely an indicator that Emma's telepathy was employed to "shut off" Scott's power by telepathically controlling his cognitive functions. It is unlikely that a latent telekinetic could hold off the incredible telekinesis of the Phoenix Force. However, Emma's telepathy is formidable, and as we see in Astonishing X-Men, she does possess the ability to control Scott's optic blasts and shut them off (though in this instance, the damage was not permanent).

I've also seen someone try to input that Emma hit Kitty with a telekinetic blast in Endsong as well. However, a telepathic mental bolt can convince your brain that you've just been hit with something physically, so your body naturally reacts and flops to the ground. This is, again, no indication that Emma is a latent telekinetic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aragni07 (talk • contribs) 09:08, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

And how could a latent telekinetic who isn't even aware of her latent telekinetic powers attack and knock down someone with a telekinetic blast who is essentially a ghost. It doesn't make sense. Psi-bolts from telepaths do have a history of knocking people over. And the original Psylocke in her original body had a psychoblast that was an attack that concentrated all of her telepathic power into one blast could harm people mentally and physically in addition to being capable of shattering metal objects. So it could be possible, Emma could be utilizing that special ability or just a regular mental bolt. Elemental5293 (talk) 22:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The Kitty incident was already removed however the blocking Telekinesis incident shouldn't. You're refering to the second time she did it after she was revived by Angel...the section is refering to the first time.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2285/page0304zb4.jpg

This was worded very carefully in the powers and abilities section. Emma used her powers to block the Phoenix's telekinesis from coming near Scott as shown in the scan. That doesn't prove latent telekinesis, it proves that she can somehow block telekinesis with her powers. Look at the scan, the Phoenixs telekinesis is enshrouding Cyclops at first...when Emma's powers intervene the telekinetic flames can't get near him.86.43.161.163 14:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

In the power-section I saw this sentence: "Jean Grey's displaced psyche was able to use Frost's brain to generate a strong telekinetic force-field and fly while it inhabited the White Queen's body." Did Jean really use Emmas mind to do that? I thought that Jean moved her consciousness to Emmas mind, togheter with her own psi powers (tp and teke), while Emma moved her mind (and psi-powers) to Bobby's mind. 130.241.18.31 11:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Jean just moved her mind to Emma's body...she used Emmas powers to generate a strong TK forcefield. Emma had Bobby's ice powers in his body. Mutant powers are genetic. On a side note, Synch synched with Emma and was able to use telekinesis. 86.43.161.63 19:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Just saw that someone removed this which is the possible reason as to why a particular user keeps editing that powers and abilities section (See Gen X #40) ,

Is there a reason for the Revision Regarding Synch and Emma's so called TK?

http://img443.imageshack.us/my.php?image=generationx4003ax2.jpg

http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=generationx4004vd9.jpg

http://img443.imageshack.us/my.php?image=generationx4005ys0.jpg 86.43.161.63 00:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The citation is noteworthy. Can we undo the action?Luminum —Preceding comment was added at 02:10, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

-

Fixed. Please see comments on update page. Thanks for the addition. --RossF18 02:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Amalgam Comics

I actually thought it was a Hoax as well until I went and bought the Generation Hex Issue from by local comics book store. This is the issue when Emma becomes the White Whip. http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1977/generationhex00hh9.jpg http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8502/generationhex06ee1.jpg So should be restore that entry? 86.43.171.190 (talk) 15:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

That's not the only problem with the Amalgam mention. See discussions at WikiProject Comics' talk page and Archive 29. Doczilla (talk) 00:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I read it, the only problem I can see with the entry is deciphering which two characters make up the amalgam however the website that's in charge of the Official Handbooks of the Marvel Universe(marvunapp) have stated who is what on their website. That's an official source http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7078/handbook00ifcbf6.jpg.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/amgenhex.htm

The other question raised in the discussion was whether Amalgam entries are relevant enough to include in character profiles. My reasoning would be if we're not including the Amalgam versions because they aren't significant enough then why include the What if...? versions since they're significance is of the same magnitude as the amalgam versions? 86.43.173.190 (talk) 17:19, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Newx156.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 22:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Emma white2.jpg

Image:Emma white2.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

This Article Needs Condensing

Emma Frost's page desperately needs condensing. I did a little last night and will continue to condense/delete in a little while. [ StarIV (talk) 20:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC) ]

I was meaning to ask where you draw the conclusion that Civil War is pre-Breakworld when Astonishing has not established any particular continuity anchors with the other X-Events, let alone Marvel, unless of course, you man publication history.Luminum (talk) 21:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Have you read Uncanny X-Men #496? The end of Unstoppable is hinted within, effectively spoiling the end of the Astonishing arc, and Torn and Unstoppable take place back-to-back continuity-wise obviously. I don't want to spoil Astonishing for anyone who just happens to read this... Let's just say that the appearance of a character in Torn/Unstoppable, X-Men's Blinded by the Light arc, and then everything during Messiah Complex and after actually place Torn and Unstoppable between Blinded by the Light and Messiah Complex. So, in fact, I need to move that section one more time. Is that placement even possible? Apparently. Gotta love Marvel continuity. [ StarIV (talk) 00:58, 14 March 2008 (UTC) ]

I know of it, but I would rather save changes about character continuity when Marvel effectively states where Astonishing's plotline fits in. There's already been a ridiculous debate about it on the Kitty Pryde page concerning those events. However, Marvel editors have said that they will make Astonishing's continuity more clear when Whedon is done. I don't know how they'll manage to do it, but until then...Besides, in terms of article layout, it makes no sense to throw Civil War right between the X-Men being beamed up into a ship headed for Breakworld and the X-Men heading for Breakworld in said ship. Why not keep Astonishing's out-of-continuity plot lines together, which would make a smidge more sense and just put Civil War after it?Luminum (talk) 01:21, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I merged the Torn and Unstoppable sections. I should have done that to begin with; I just wasn't thinking. Unless Marvel states otherwise though, it should stay right before Messiah Complex. It's the only logical place that it fits right now. [ StarIV (talk) 01:51, 14 March 2008 (UTC) ]

Main Image

How about finding a better main image? This is Emma Frost. Don't tell me this is the best image of her out there?--RossF18 (talk) 04:04, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The current one from Uncanny X-Men Annual #2 is much better I think. --193.185.55.253 (talk) 10:06, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

The previous comment referenced a rather poor image that existed beforehand. Also, main images need to meet certain criteria. For example, full body images for characters are preferred over face-only, half-body, or otherwise incomplete pictures, and if the image depicts the character recognizably and accurately, not just whether or not we like one more than the other. You can make a case for the Uncanny Annual picture, but it's got to be better than just liking it more. In my opinion, the advantages of the current image are that it's her new costume. The disadvantage is that it's 3/4 body. Advantages of the previous are that it's full body while the disadvantage is that it's not her new costume (though Emma's current costume is not that different from the previous one and can still be identified with her).Luminum (talk) 17:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Another disadvantage of the previous main picture is that it was badly cut from the comic, you could see parts of the other frames in the page it was taken from. It also had text bubbles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.157.153.6 (talk) 15:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

That was actually done because the one before it was a clean white background version and it was deemed "too sterile" whereas the previous version was lifted from the comic itself.Luminum (talk) 16:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Whatever the reason, it did not look good. None of the main images for the other X-Men that I have checked has speech bubbles either and many of them are not full body, some where only half. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.185.55.253 (talk) 12:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Then that means that those pictures are not optimal wiki-standard images for those characters. And "not looking good" is not sufficient justification for changing a picture, as noted by Emperor.Luminum (talk) 19:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, perhaps I should have said "unprofessional" instead of "not good" then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.185.55.253 (talk) 10:09, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Reception Section

I was wondering if a Recepetion section would be valid on Emma's page. Emma is well known in comic circles as being a sexual icon (hence the win for Sexiest Comic Babe) as well as being a "bitch." The reception of her character since her reintroduction (I imagine) in Morisson's New X-Men and her "disruption" of an iconic comic book couple (Jean and Scott) has lead her to be either immensely hated or greatly loved. Also, I think she poses interesting dynamics as a highly sexualized figure while also being a dominant leader of the X-Men and interacting withing a highly aggressive environment such as the Marvel universe. I won't lie that I've been thinking about her characterization and reception since revisiting this article by Deanna Lytle on SequentialTart.com concerning the ways men and women communicate in comics that she wrote as her thesis using New X-Men v.4: Riot At Xavier's. (Read it here: http://www.sequentialtart.com/archive/mar05/cv_0305_2.shtml) Do any of you feel that it's warranted? Or do you disagree? Just throwing it out there.Luminum (talk) 22:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Um, no. Sex icon, maybe, probably. One time villain, yes. A "bitch", no. See how one's opinion instantly enters into this. This is not a comic fansite. It's an encyclopedia article. If you can actually find a source for what you're saying, then I see a possibility. However, if the proposed section will entail just your opinion as per your above comments, then it'll likely be quickly deleted or you'll have an edit war on your hands between people who find every sentence of your above post either offensive or true. Of hand, I see people having difficulty with personification of a strong woman who get what she wants as a "bitch." Alternatively, there is one argument of a woman being pushed to make use of her sexuality to get ahead regardless of her initial desire to do so. With Emma, there doesn't seem to be that problem as she seems to enjoy throwing men for a loop, but again, it's a highly charged issue that unless you can have a source heavy balanced section is just a recepy for an edit war. (Besides, there are those who'd question Jean and Scott as being that iconic. How iconomic could they be if they basically often felt deeply, sexually and emotionally, for other people. Jean with Logan and Scott with Emma, who he recently admitted to truly loving and with Emma admitting true love for Scott in Astonishing. Jean herself all but put her stamp of approval on the now true relationship between Scott and Emma b/c she kept dying on Scott and wanted him to finally be happy with someone). And as far as Emma being hated, I don't know about that either. From what I understand, she was always loved by the majority, just as a bad guy. What many people dislike is her current bad girl turned good (with relapses) personification. --RossF18 (talk) 22:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I mentioned "bitch" because it came up in writer's interviews about why they enjoyed writing Emma. It's not my opinion. By and large, reception (both "fan-based" and more importantly, writer-based) has noted Emma's attitude as a reason for why they like/dislike her. I avoided the vernacular in her intro, instead opting for "An urbane, mutant telepath with a well-noted dry wit" with a reference that links to a writer saying he enjoys writing her because "she's a bitch." Likewise, the ways in which she is used as a character, her speech patterns, and contributions to conversations, her noted sexuality were also included in a thesis by the link I posted above. Considering those things, I was just asking if it seemed appropriate to mention aspects that seemingly set the character apart in the comics. What I suggested wasn't a section about how Emma is "so hot," or "so bitchy," or why that makes her "so cool" but rather a section noting that she's known for interacting abrasively with other characters and the thesis above that highlighted Emma as speaking and engaging with more "masculine" dynamics and what analysis that had with her being both "highly sexualized" but not stereotypically docile and feminine in her portrayals as the writer noted with other female characters. ::shrug::Luminum (talk) 01:19, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, highlighting one thesis is not a good idea unless you want to do a full blown section with more than one source. I don't think it's really right for that sort of a section in an encyclopedia article. This is not a scholarly journal on potrayal of women in the comic books. At best, I think it would be best to add the link to the External Links/Further Reading section so that for those interested, they can look at it. And there is no reason to take things so personally. --RossF18 (talk) 00:09, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. And also, I wasn't taking things personally. I thought you were edging into "fanboy" paranoia unprovoked. Good to see that we're on the same page.Luminum (talk) 05:43, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Removing Copyright Image Notice?

I edited some of the Free-Use rationales for the pictures on the page in an attempt to nullify the notice at the top of the page. Is it appropriate to remove it now?Luminum (talk) 07:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required

This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 16:26, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Done. It gets a little thin in the later stages of "Joining and leading the X-Men" abd could do with some more (especially in the earl parts of the character biography) but nothing that is a major statement that needs sourcing. I think some of the "Publication history" needs trimming back (it is a little too in-universe) and other bits expanding - like character development (as seen with the bit about Grant Morrison's use of her as a character). However, it is good enough for a B - those are the areas that would need tightening up to push this higher. (Emperor (talk) 19:58, 16 September 2008 (UTC))

Accent

In the new series Wolverine and the X-men, Emma is depicted with an English accent. I'm not sure about this so I'm asking if anyone, but I've always assumed that she's spoken with a transatlantic accent, since she uses certain English terms, but she's from Boston. One would think she would speak in a similar manner to say...Frasier Crane, and not Sr. Ian McKellan. I realize this is fan view but what I'm asking is, is there any sort instance where her accent is defined in the comics? 69.209.205.81 (talk) 07:16, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

New X-Men (Vol. 1) #116. Taxi driver asks, "Is that an English accent, honey?" to which Emma responds, "Mm." But as you've noted, how she sounds is a fannish miniscule detail and speculation. I think some readers commented on Morrisson's depiction of Emma with an English accent noting that there was really no basis for it, so it's just one of those comic things. She certainly speaks however other writers want her to speak.Luminum (talk) 18:00, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes I see. And looking back on it further it is much more minuscule than I figured at the time...I suppose I had this idea that the accent in which she speaks is related to her snobbish attitude...but that's a bit lofty lol. Thanks for responding anyway, I guess this should be deleted or something. 76.223.81.199 (talk) 02:48, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

The singlee flaw in her diamond form

I was wondering, since the stepford cuckoos are clones of her- and their flaw was a tiny flaw in their hearts (which they sealed the phoenix in)- wouldn't Emma's flaw be there too? Jacobshaven3 (talk) 22:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

No. The Cuckoos are explicitly stated not to have a flaw in their diamond forms.Luminum (talk) 09:50, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Other media detail

As stated before, other media portrayals should be limited to the appearance, not the content. That level of description is reserved for the Wikipedia page of that media. Details of what the character in the television show did and when they did it can be found on Wolverine and the X-Men. It does not belong on this page. Please see Vision for guidance in future editing for this section.Luminum (talk) 21:43, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Image

Please stop removing the image in the Wolverine and the X-Men section. Tarysky (talk) 17:51, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

As I suggested on your discussion page, your edit is being challenged. You will need consensus at this point. And please, don't send me obscure comments such as this one. It's nothing short of misleading and bewildering. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 17:55, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

A consensus was appointed and is not required for the image to remain the page. Tarysky (talk) 18:02, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I have seen no consensus. There is no rationale for the image to be on the page or how it meets Wikipedia notability standards. Does it enhance understanding of the character to a reader of the article? No. Is it a full image of the character? No. Is it a clear image of the character? No. All of those reasons make the image problematic for what is essentially a minute section of the character's page.Luminum (talk) 18:05, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Radical Changes to the Powers and Abilities Section

Will David A please stop making radical changes to this section. He clearly does not possess any of the material that's already been referenced there.

His Handbook is outdated he's using Emma's X-Men 2004 bio instead of her most recent one from OHOTMU v4 which upgraded her intellect.

This is the handbook,

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Official-Handbook-Marvel-Universe-Premiere/dp/0785131019 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.160.35 (talk) 11:53, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Her psychic abilities were cited as enormous in Gen X 3 times. The Intro page to X-Men Legacy 216 says her abilties rival that of Xavier's among other things. Found this page;

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/2043/xmenlegacy216001pl8.jpg

This make over is clearly due to someone thinking they know stuff when their sources are clearly outdated.

On top of this he removed like 40 references from the article all of which see reference 64 list issues which are useful to gauge her power level.

86.43.160.35 (talk) 11:53, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I am in fact using all of her previous bios which each listed her as gifted, and in the referenced issue in question (as opposed to the irrelevant recap blurb, which is supposed to build up exaggerated suspense) Xavier and Emma both stated that his power/mind was stronger than hers, but that taking him entirely by surprise/infiltrating his mind like a virus enabled her to overcome him anyway. Every single bio I've ever read has stated that her abilities are below Xavier's, even before his recent power-up. Emma has never ever demonstrated 'enormous' abilities. Heck she was stated as "hogwash" league in comparison to Xavier and Cassandra Nova (and per extension Moondragon and similar planetary level psychics) in Astonishing. You're a temporary ip (which is always extremely suspicious in itself) that is trying to re-insert the blatant very fanboyish and far too decompressed pov exaggerations. The revert I used is far more matter of fact and npov. There is nothing 'radical' whatsoever about it beyond enhancing the overall article text quality and reliability. Dave (talk) 16:05, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

No actually Emma and Xavier did not both state this. Xavier claimed he was more powerful and Emma said that was moot which means that it has yet to be proven and is irrelevant because they aren't going to be fighting. The recap blurb only proves this point by stating that she rivals him in power. Emma was actually called to be Xavier Level in New Mutants by Illyana and a Psi of the Highest order by Xavier himself...please do give examples of bios where it's stated that his power dwarfs hers? Please do I'm very interested. No actually if you read Astonishing that was Cassandra Nova trying to prey on Emma's insecurities Emma herself blocked a recently upgraded Xavier. In fact that event where Nova created her diamond form may or may not have happened. And Nova is >>> Then Xavier + Cerebra. You haven't enhanced anything but state your opinion with little to no fact that is what makes it radical not to mention rude. The powers and abilties article has been like that for years now and references have been added and checked. You blatant disregard for the content already there is very rude especially when you consider all the time it took to sift through all the dates of issue numbers and checking of references to make sure that they correlated with the content. And FYI Emma has planetary level feats as well.

In the case of "enormous" three entries in Gen X; http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=74987541.jpg

The bios you are outdated. If you feel something is incorrect then please discuss it before you try and force incorrect information into an article that's been like that for year and a half.

http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=93836910.jpg

But I do agree that some of it can be trimmed down...things like the mental surgery have been there for over 10 years though and that is something that is a core part to how she uses her powers. BTW The Bio also states that she has enhanced speed in her diamond form. 86.43.160.35 (talk) 17:20, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Solicitations

I believe I've explained this before, but solicitations are not credible sources on Wikipedia. The purpose of a solicitation is to offer a preview and oftentimes to be misleading. Plot points are shown out of context and literary twists and turns are depicted in such a way to draw interest, not to provide clear understanding like the actual issue. Since the purpose of Wikipedia is to be an encyclopedia (re: "encyclopic") and since solicitations are only partial information depicted sans context, using information from them for character plot points is dubious.

This is also why major additions are usually put on hold until something such as a cliffhanger throughout a series is resolved. An example of this would be on the Kitty Pryde page when there was a debate over stating the status of the character when the last issue of Astonishing X-Men had not been released, although other X-titles had discussed the character's situation in roundabout language. Some individuals wanted to state that Kitty was dead, drawing assumptions from the vague language presented in other issues while others preferred that the information wait until the actual final issue depicting her state was addressed. In truth, the character's fate was left in question in the last issue of Astonishing X-Men, neither stating that she was certainly dead or otherwise, and so the assumptions would have been technically false.

It's my fault for reforming that information on the Dark X-Men and posting it there, as I assumed that the information was based off of sources that had been understood in their entirety and only needed some clean up. For the future, editors should stick to what is actually complete and understood when adding information.

Also, editors should bear in mind that because an edit is reverted or challenged, it does not necessarily mean at all that the reversion was made for any personal reason or out of personal preference. Assuming that it is malicious or somehow something someone would "want" to do, rather than something an editor is doing to uphold Wikipedia entry standards is counterproductive. Let's all get along.Luminum (talk) 04:44, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Also, the only thing that can be documented from a solicitation (when it is acceptable to do so) is that "Solicitations from Marvel show this character in this setting." To interpret anything more than that is considered original research; like Luminum says, we can't draw the conclusion that just because something is shown in a solicitation or on a cover, that this is exactly what will happen inside the actual comic.67.175.176.178 (talk) 22:06, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits

I've reverted the massive edits on this page because changes to the extent made by the user should be discussed first here on the talk page. While generally some of the edits I personally agree with in general as improvements (ex. the changes to the publication history) other edits in the fictional biography were problematic, particularly due to problems with appropriate tone, neutral language, and additional unexplained removals.

Please utilize the talk page to discuss these edits, which remain in the Wikipedia archives if they need to be retrieved, if not selectively.Luminum (talk) 17:41, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Restored the Bibligraphy section since you approved of it. Also the background stuff (the Gen X issue which her brief ongoing comic nullified from canon and the retcon from Deadly Genesis) should be incorporated into the biography section. I'll also be reworking the biography to fix some of the concerns Luminum mentioned contextwise.

The biography needs to be trimmed down. Most notably, stuff like Astonishing X-Men, Emma's battle with Astrid while in college, and Mesiah CompleX and "United We Stand" can be considerably trimmed down while stuff like the Sisterhood of Mutants section should be removed since Emma played too small role in that arc to warrent a mention. Also the Cabal stuff in relations to Uncanny X-Men Annual #2 should be placed in the section covering the Hellfire Club stuff (chronologically, between Emma switching bodies with Storm and before Mastermind put Emma in a coma during "From the Ashes").

Similarly, given continuity issues with the 3/4ths of Whedon's Astonishing X-Men taking place between Blinded By the Light and Messiah Complex, it should be placed there in the order of information. --BakerBaker (talk) 19:59, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Power levels

Given that there is clearly a schism between former portrayals of the character's power levels and more current ones, I suggest we take a line similar to the "Diamond Form" section and describe out of universe style inconsistency. It would be inaccurate to gloss over her abilities as if she has always been "Xavier-level" and it is also inaccurate to maintain that she is less powerful when multiple recent issues demonstrate a formidable ability against Xavier or equate her power level to Xavier. It's not uncommon for characters to be beefed up, and given Emma's role as the X-Men's (and to a lesser extent Marvel's) primary telepath, not surprising that she's been made more powerful than she is "supposed" to be. Ex. "Though regarded as a largely powerful psychic, Emma's exact levels have been portrayed inconsistently. Earlier depictions rank her distinctly below telepaths such as Jean Grey and Charles Xavier, while more recent depictions portray her as being able to challenge mutants such as Xavier and triumph." I would probably throw that in next to the Rachel Summers line from Uncanny X-Men if it still exists. Cite and all that. What do we think?Luminum (talk) 16:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

It's too wordy and unnecessary. Way back then she was called Xavier Level by Illyana in New Mutants the only thing is she wasn't as prominent as she is now days so she never had the feats to back those citations up or most importantly readers gloss over those little boxes because it pretty much was a few lines in a box and not actual action. Back then she was also called a Psi of the Highest order, One of the most powerful telepaths in the world etc...by Xavier and Xavier also told Jean that both of them are needed to work out the a mind as powerful as the White Queens when she was in a coma. She was portrayed as the superior telepath to Selene and smacked down Dani in the process. Those citations used in the wiki article are from the omniscient narrator and that one introduction panel was used throughout the Gen X run. Heck even the Xavier Files '93 had him say that she as formidable and that she blocked his probes. Back then Emma's only problem was lack of feats due to not being as prominent back then, there have been plenty of character references to how powerful she is. Heck Nightmare even paid her visit in Gen X because he believed she could find a way into his realm. It would be false to say she was weaker just because she had few feats back then when it has never been stated or shown that she's far below Xavier and Jean sans Phoenix. She also managed to cloak herself from Xavier and the Phoenix once the building collapsed in UXM #131 and managed to cloak herself and students from Onslaught, Magneto and Cerebro.

Besides it says that "it has been stated that she rivals Xavier", that doesn't mean she's more powerful it means that she rivals him as proven by the times she's given him grief. Xavier was kidnapped by her in her first appearance. Heck Moondragon sans Mind Gem and Influence from the Dragon of the Moon doesn't have the feats Emma has. ExodusCloak (talk) 16:52, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

As every single handbook has stated that Xavier possesses far greater power, that he has recurrently been referred to as the most powerful mutant mind on the planet (technically incorrect, but still), including one of Matt Fraction's more recent crossover issue if I don't misremember, and that even the aberrant reference in question is highly debatable as it is simply a promotion blurb and Xavier states himself to possess more raw power as such inside it, it couldn't be a much more contradicted point, and should go. "Among the five most powerful telepaths" isn't explicitly contradicted anywhere though, even if it's technically incorrect (there's Xavier, Cassandra Nova, Gamesmaster, Shadow King, Rachel Summers, and especially Moondragon, and that's just off the top of my head. All far more powerful than Emma. Likely Exodus as well), but again, strictly somewhat misleading rather than explicitly contradicted, so it could stay if you really want it. "Enormous" or "Tremendous" would also be hyperbole and severely misleading in relation to what it generally takes to get that kind of rating around here. She'd have to be planetary scale mind-control at least. (Then again, she could always steal Xavier's Infinity Gem for herself. Then she really would be Earth's by far most powerful psychic). Although Luminum sent me a message stating that she recently broadcasted globally without aid, so that could come halfway through at least, but you'd have to adjust the references. "Extreme" is okay though. That said, the ridiculously long list of references to it should be scaled down to her 1-3 most impressive/extreme displays. It's too confusing right now. Dave (talk) 21:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

All good points. Just remember that we can't really rely on the Marvel encyclopedias, since they're their own separate encyclopedias (and copy written at that). The main goal of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia for this project is to base itself on the comics themselves and what is said/happens there, which I suppose would also include contradicted issues (such as the description of Emma's telepathic abilities/immunity in diamond form.Luminum (talk) 01:03, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Rely solely on, no. Form a pattern built upon them and all the regular books they are based on in combination, when these explicitly overlap, yes. Deliberately contradict based on personal opinion or aberrant references, no. Dave (talk) 01:25, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

You always assume people are deliberately trying to detract from an article?Luminum (talk) 02:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Not always, but you do have a good point in that I've gradually turned far more paranoid in that regard during my 'visits' to Wikipedia. It's partially that this place can tend to do that to you after a few years, given a sufficient amount of experiences with overt manipulation of information or/and regulations, but I also tend to take things and people literally, and have communication problems. It's not at all fun when people severely misunderstand my own viewpoint and intentions, so it's probably similarly frustrating when the intents behind similar profile structures start to blur together, and innocent people who simply used the available information, and were unaware of the conflicts, get lumped in with the deliberate information-distorters. I'll try to do better in the future, or at least be active when in a less bad mood. Sorry about that.

Regardless, the point that these pieces of information themselves are severely contradicted, conflict with the context of other profiles, and that it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to use very editorially accuracy-loose information blurbs before very editorially strict handbook information, and actual in-continuity events/demonstrations stands. Dave (talk) 17:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

1) Sigh* there are some significant errors with your post Dave. Firstly every single handbook has not said Xavier is far greater then Emma. In fact I can bet that you can't list one handbook. Since I own most of the handbooks and they hardly ever compare characters powers. Now if you want to go into cards which are not canon then Emma is actually listed at the same power level then him and higher then Rachel Grey but that is not canon.

2) Gamemaster does not have the feats to be considered more powerful then Emma. Just because he's an Omnipath does not make him more powerful, see when Jean Grey took him on. Moondragon and Rachel without their upgrades don't have the feats to put them on Emma's level. Exodus doesn't have Emma's feats either but we know he's up there with Xavier. None of those you listed have displayed planetary mind control without amps. Xavier is the only one. Not even Cassandra Nova has displayed that but we know she could probably do that so your point is moot.

3) That character bio is from Gen X, which appeared at the beginning of each issue starting from #30 IRRC. Her abilities are described as enormous which they are. She was cited as a rival to Xavier by Illyana in New Mutants. She was called a Psi of the Highest order by Xavier that in itself means that Xavier considers her a rival. She blocked Xavier in World of War Hulk. And her abilties were cited to rival Xavier on the re-cap page not some promotion. She's also Xavier's foil in the Cabal.

4) Also you do not understand the point moot I see. Emma's reply in that issue is it's moot. Which in that context means that it has yet to be proven.

She also broadcasted to Antartica without aid and blocked Sinister, Lady Mastermind and Exodus. This is what Mike Carey stated in his interview during the event. She also broadcasted to Tokyo from her office this is without aid. She also took out 7 Super Skrull telepaths who have been training all their lives to take on the X-telepaths who were amped by Cerebra machines and blocking all telepathy across the globe. She sifted through 8 billion minds during the X-Men #200. ExodusCloak (talk) 11:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

5) Also to add on to that, Tokyo thing, she didn't just broadcast to there she mind controlled the airport attendant to cavity search Logan as a prank. She also broadcasted to Ireland without aid to mind rape Nate Grey. When he confronted her she mind raped him again. It should be noted that he didn't realize he had his telepathy but was using it subconsciously. And if you really want to use characters quips such as the one from #216 where Xavier says he's more powerful and Emma replies it's moot as in it has yet to be proven then in X-Man 50 Emma calls herself the superior psi to Nate Grey and mind rape him. And there's also the Omega Level telepath thing which also suggests that she's in the same ranking as Xavier much like Exodus, Sinister etc. Nova IMO would be higher then all them. Nova got Xavier from halfway across the world when his powers were amped 10 times. ExodusCloak (talk) 12:25, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

6) And one last thing, Emma did far better against the Skrull telepaths then Xavier did. One Skrull telepath (Not amped) mind blasted and floored Xavier in Illuminati #5. 7 Skrull Telepaths amped by 7 Cerebra machines got wtfpwned by Emma who at this point in time was disconnected from Cerebra, the Cuckoos and her body which means she was just like the Shadow King and wasn't amped.ExodusCloak (talk) 12:29, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll ignore the "sigh", and "do not understand I see" phrases, but to be able to sort through the multiple topics and reply without making a complete mess of it, I've tried to number the sections.

1) Of course I can list the handbooks. As usual with me, it's just a matter of how much I can force myself to spend on focus and time for this sort of less relevant thing I intensely dislike to get stuck in. Case in point: Here is a Megaupload link (photobucket automatically scaled down the size too much to read the text) to a panorama of the handbook profiles that I have available, with the relevant parts underlined in green (I have some game statistics as well, which similarly place her below Xavier, but I suppose that those are usually considerably less tighly regulated): http://www.megaupload.com/?d=OCLFNW7Y

Xavier is consistently described as having "vast" and "numerous" abilities that "make him the most powerful telepath on Earth", whereas Emma doesn't get any adjectives at all, simply a very modest "various psychic abilities", with a particular focus/mention/displayed talent for psychic torture. (Is that mentioned in the Wikipedia description?) I have no idea how you could have overlooked this vast gap if you've read the profiles.

2) Gamesmaster is in constant contact with all the minds of Earth unless that's been retconned, although he hasn't actually controlled them all, so he's probably considerably below the level of Moondragon, Xemnu, and Overmind.

Moondragon has pierced the psychic shields of Galactus without effort (whereas Professor X and Magneto could not even make him notice their attempts), and when Thanos used her powers it was almost enough to win against the devourer in a psychic duel. Thanos and Doctor Strange (who is probably the most spiritually powerful mortal in the Universe) were also very narrowly able to best her after extremely long and tedious struggles. Before being temporarily depowered by Odin she simultaneously mind-controlled billions of minds at the same time, along with the thunder god Thor, whose mind is far stronger than almost any mortal's. The depowerment is long gone btw. In combination, and taken literally rather than biased (the character is extremely unlikable after all), this puts her millions of times ahead of either Emma or Xavier even without the mind gem.

Xavier has never displayed remotely planetary mind control that I'm aware of, and the handbooks state him to not even have a range for mind-reading beyond 250-500 miles.

Rachel is probably less than or at best equal to Emma in raw power without the Phoenix connection, and has been listed as possessing "virtually unlimited" psychic abilities with it, but doesn't nearly have Emma's experience and ruthlessness in using her abilities, and as Emma stated it Rachel is far more powerful in raw power, but it isn't enough to win in a confrontation.

Exodus was originally supposed to be just a step or two below Nate Grey in the über-psychic prowess department (however Cable's equally great, and more experienced, full potential wasn't even enough to beat the Silver Surfer), but seems to have been downgraded recently as Emma was able to stand up to him with help from Dust weakening him from within.

3) I know that the bio is from those old first pages brief new reader character intros that took up space for a while before being discontinued, and the point stands that all pre-comic information blurbs are extremely unreliable, and it makes no sense whatsoever to favour them before the official handbooks. "Enormous" put in context with the rest of Wikipedia's entries would imply that she can play telekinetic ping-pong with planets, or control billions of beings simultaneously. In which issue of New Mutants did Illyana state that she was a rival to Xavier, did she mean in terms of raw power or simply that she tried to mind-wipe the New Mutants into becoming students at her academy as "valuable commodities" (if I remember her wording correctly), and Illyana isn't a reliable judge. Xavier would be a far more reliable statement, although it doesn state where that line would be drawn in relation to himself, and goes strongly against the original characterisation, and that "highest order" would mean Franklin Richards "create universes made of ice cream" level. The Cabal issue is irrelevant in terms of power rather than function comparisons, and Bendis stated himself that she was simply inserted because Magneto was unavailable. World War Hulk was a specific very-time-pressed and physically dangerous situation. If Xavier would have directed any true attention to overcoming her blocking of attempts to freeze the other X-Men it would put them both in severe jeapardy. Not a good gauge. Broadcasting to Tokyo or Antarctica are irrelevant very minor feats. She only fought Exodus on her own, and with help from Dust weakening him, but was able to simply protect the X-Men before beign distracted. But by that logic Sinister would then be more powerful than her as following this he then blocked her attempts to resume the protection. It was written as strictly a matter of leverage/who made the first move.

4) No, in that context "moot" was very clearly a reference to that it didn't matter that his mind is technically stronger, as always explicitly stated by the handbooks, and all the in-comic mentions of him being the most powerful mutant telepath on Earth (although that editorial/local writer jurisdiction only extends to the related X-Universe characters, rather than aliens and non-mutants who have performed far greater cosmic entity level feats), given that he wasn't in a position to defend himself.

5) Mind-control over single ordinary minds is still irrelevant in the context of "enormous". Cassandra Nova is explicitly written as (the entire point of the character being that she is) exactly as powerful as Xavier, as she is using his own genetic abilities, but as far more ruthless, twisted, and adventurous in doing so, which is a major advantage/he usually greatly restrains himself whereas more amoral and sadistic characters such as Emma, or to an even greater extent, Nova, do not. And no I _don't_ want to use character quips as major references, but in-comic references are certainly more reliable than loose editorial introduction blurbs, especially if they occur in the same book, and far far less so than the editor-in-chief coordinated official company stances and summaries of all in-comic instances handbooks. It's not the sort of thing that should ever be used in any Wikipedia profile.

6) I tend to associate the combination of expressions such as "wtfpwned" and "mind-raped" to creative sadism addicted über-brats, since that's the type I have mostly seen use them previously, but that's a faulty instinct. You're probably a very decent person for all that I know. Anyway, regardless of my personal bad experiences(/prejudices?), it's a bad comparison. As far as I remember, Emma was not alone against the Skrull telepaths, they apparently did not have the extreme enchantments of the first shown Super-Skrull, which was a combination of Namor+Black Bolt+Xavier+Tony Stark+Reed Richards (+ I suppose Doctor Strange) and hence intended as as powerful (but not experienced) as Xavier himself. The revelation that Black Bolt was a Skrull imposter also took him completely by surprise. This first Super-Skrull had far greater power-levels than any of the ones shown later (with the possible exception of the Titania/Volcana/Battleaxe combo that Thor had his hands full against) as it shattered the Crimson Bands of Cyttorrak, and took the combined efforts of all the present Illuminati members to stop, whereas Ms. Marvel, who in ordinary state is far less than a physical match for Sub-Mariner alone, was later able to take down dozens of them, and Captain Britain effortlessly punched the head off one that supposedly copied Silver Surfer + Hulk + Namor combined, and Stature took down a Galactus-Skrull if I don't misremember, so the initial supposed enormous threat fizzled to "here comes more canon fodder with 1/1000000th to 1/100th the power of the originals", but I'm getting sidetracked again. The Skrull telepaths that Emma, the Cuckoos and any other available telepaths went up against were apparently "ordinary" Skrull "psi-priests" also shown in the flashback chapters, rather than Super-Skrulls that (to wildly shifting displayed extents of success) copied the abilities of various superhumans. Again, completely different contexts, and I'm not sure about your representation of the events. I'll have to check it up. I don't get the comparison with the Shadow King, but will have to re-check the issues.

7) Conclusion:

In final context the potential useful/explicit non-slanted or severely contradicted noteworthy/"high enough to warrant feat-level" references that you have mentioned above, and thus could be useful to mention in the profile, would be scanning the minds of 8 billion people in X-Men 200 (which I wasn't aware of, and have to check for accuracy), allegedly overcoming Nate Grey (although that could have been a similar case to Rachel/a far greater experience thing, which come to think of it would also be a useful mention in the profile as a statement that her skill can overcome inexperienced people with far greater raw power), being called an "Omega-level telepath" (although I'd like to get and check an issue reference for reliability), and possibly dealing with 7 Cerebra-enhanced (Accurate description?) Skrull telepaths. Those would all be good if correct. Will check. However, the problems I have with this page remain that you quote an unreliable blurb in favour of the far more reliable handbooks that all contradict it, along with the rather frequent in-story mentions of Xavier as the most powerful mutant telepath on Earth. I also have an issue with using the phrase "enormous", since it contrasts with more powerful mentions required elsewhere in Wikipedia, unless Emma really did put herself in simultaneous report with all the minds on Earth without assistance. That might barely rate it. Also, the multitude of unspecified references are still confusing after "extraordinary telepathic feats". I think it would be far preferable to simply stick to explicitly state the greatest shown upper limits to her abilities, along with the "Omega level telepath" thing, to skip the extremely contradicted stuff, along with referencing any extremely unreliable playing-fast-and-loose intro blurbs, and get rid of the overflow of mostly irrelevant references that nobody can check. The structure should preferably turn somewhat more explicit.

Minor update 1: Ok, I checked X-Men 200, and Emma did not put herself in simultaneous report with 8 Billion minds. She simply astrally entered the mind of Rogue after the latter had "absorbed"(/created facsimile replica sub-personalities of) them, and started searching for Rogue's original mind, which she described as "Sifting a desert for a single grain of sand. Except that sand doesn't scream." and in the following panel "Rogue's consciousness -- as far as I can tell -- is intact. But it's been backed into a corner by these countless other minds. Her sense of her own identity is breaking down under the strain." She was clearly overwhelmed 'simply' from the effort of trying to find her way through Rogue's mind. It is not a case of simultaneous report with 8 Billion minds, but rather like when Wolverine or Daredevil attempt to isolate single smells in a major city, which is very impressive in itself of course, but not quite managing to sift through one brain frantically attempting to co-run uncountable personalities is not remotely of the same scale as the entire population of Earth at the same time. I will check the rest later. Dave (talk) 17:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

1. Just wanted to say first of all that I looked through all those handbook as well. And my point still stands, that doesn't contradict anything. Xavier's snikt has always been that he's the most powerful telepath on Earth and there have been times where otherwise aka Legion have been stated to be more powerful there have also been times when he rivaled other telepaths aa Emma and Magneto. Same goes for Hulk and the Strongest line that gets played all the time yet. BTW Jeans and Nate Grey abilities are described as quite modest in her 2004 Handbook, Exodus is always been described as a mutant with vast psionic powers even in his latest handbook yet in the X-Men Annual 1 when he reappeared Emma was called the most poweful psi on the planet. Asafa Powell can rival Usain Bolt.

2. When Gamemaster kidnapped Jean by drugging her and made the world forget about Joesph in one of the Uncanny X-Men Annual I think it was that annual I can check if you want the issue for that he said that it's only 10 million minds so yes it must have been retconned and he got beat by Jean in Astral Combat. Moondragon under the influence of the Dragon of the Moon is what gave her the boost. That Thor thing is moot since he's very inconsistent when it comes to telepathy. If you look at her in Annihilation she struggled to control a room full of bugs and overpowered by a controlled XEMNU. Moondragon without any boosts is no where near Xavier level. Thanos also punked Moondragon and he doesn't have telepathic abilties so saying that he almost dominated Galactus is not entirely true cause that would be mostly down to Thanos skill besides Galactus punked him afterwards. And Handbooks are written by a third party source and have to be updated every now and again, that 250 miles is wrong and you know it.

3. No enormous is what the blurb says it is, in this case you're giving your opinion as to what enormous means. And since your opinion regarding Emma and the other telepaths is obviously that she's now where near them then clearly that's why she can't be enormous. It's your personal opinion, the blurb is actually more official then the Handbook since the blurb is written by a first part source. I think the Illyana thing is New Mutants 14 and it was in terms of ability. I don't see how you can argue that she's not up there with Xavier if he called her a psi with the highest order. Again Franklin is a psi/reality warper not the same thing. And again Xavier outright stated that she aws a psi of the highest order, if he's the most powerful psi on the planet then she's up there. Claremont wrote both of those issues. As for Sinister, Emma blocked him from using his powers half way across the world after she lost contact and he locked her out from his base he used TK on Angel. Emma was still able to make contact with Wolverine and Nightcrawler in Antartica though. She locked him out from using his powers, he but up a psi-shield around his base. She also proved that she was better then him in psi, he had no idea what to do with Rogue she at least had a plan. Also Exodus is no way near less powerful then he already was. Exodus has caused Xavier and Jean problems, he humiliated Jean a second time. Stalemated Sersi, Beat Thena only got beat by Quicksilver thanks to Thena's psi interference, Fought Nate Grey and Cable when he was weakened, the story stated that he was reduced from a very high level psi to a power leech and Emma stalemated him. That should give you some idea as to where Emma stands in regards to Xavier.

4. Again your opinion, Emma would never admit that she's outgunned in front of a person that is OOC. The context is clearly yet to be proven especially when you consider that Carey is one of the few writers pimping out Emma's feats this decade.

5. Again Blurbs >> Then Handbooks in terms of sourcing. Handbook only come into play when explanations haven't been given in comics like Storm and how she's resists the elements or Emma and Colossus can get stabbed by Vibranium knives.

6. Actually that first Skrull was not that powerful. Skrullbolts scream could only blow up a building, Dr. Strange was weakened after he had his hands crushed, that Skrull got impaled by Namor even though it had Reeds, Blackbolts and Namors durability. The Skrull in Thor was a lot more powerful. The Skrull cross between Emma/Medusa/Jean in the Inhuman story was again was a very powerful psi to subdue Blackbolt. Also remember that the 7 Skrulls were the Dreamers, they stopped all Global transmission of psi (read the Blurb). They were the Skrulls premier telepaths. The issue with the Shadow King is that Emma was detached from her body just like the Shadow King. Cerebra amplifies brainwaves, there was no brainwaves in Emma's body and the Cuckoos were not attached to her anymore. Emma was not boosted when she took those Skrulls on. Ms. Marvel is able to access her binary powers from time to time if blasted by enough energy. And yes the Skrulls had a hard time copying certain powers however their telepaths seemed to be able to render Blackbolt and Xavier useless.

7. That's one way of describing the 200 event, except it doesn't go with the analogy of each mind screaming. Emma located Rogues essence in the presence of 8 billion essences that's still very impressive with all the mental anguish going on when you consider that those beings are stuck between life and death. Emma also made an entire town forget with little to no effort at all. Emma just lobotimized the Void after herself and a weakend Xavier breached the Voids mental defences. The Void has access to the Sentry's powers which were used to mind wipe everyone on Earth. Then there's the global broadcast to all mutants. I don't think the Omega level telepath thing should be added, the amount of references at the end of extraordinary telepathic feats is a bunch of references to show her highest showings. I'm against adding listing out her best feats to the articles because it was like that 4 year ago and 1.) the article became too long and 2.) It came across to defensive. And again Blurbs >> Then Handbooks.

BTW You mentioned it somewhere about Xavier and Global feats, and he did it when Galactus was destroying the Skrull planet. He linked 8 billion minds (Yes that number is quite popular) and attacked Galactus. Didn't phase galactus but he linked those minds from a Skrull Moon. Then he did the same against thing against the Planet Ego. ExodusCloak (talk) 09:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)