Talk:Emergency vehicle lighting

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This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Untitled

Have I wrongly classed this article? If so, Please change it! Dep. Garcia ^{(Talk to Me)} 17:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the propper name for a lightbar that is constructed of multiple single beacons? I'm thinking of the Vector lightbar ([[1]] - which is a link to Federal Signal's page for the Vector) and the early light bars which consisted of a pair of beacons mounted on either side of a long bar, often with a siren speaker visible in the center. Would this be better discussed under 'beacons' or somewhere else? --Badger151 00:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Probably better discussed under beacons. Latlely i have been thinking about moving the "single beacon" section of the article out of the article and starting a new article with it, or placing it in a new article. Strictly speaking, single beacons are not lightbars because they do not meet the generally accepted image of the lightbar. TomStar81 04:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

CA vehicle code, &c

I've removed the information pertaining to CA code, because this is not a page dedicated to CA warning lights - I have moved some of the information, in a more generalized form, to the Emergency vehicle equipment page --Badger151 01:04, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup, reorg &c

This page badly needs a total cleanup and reorganization of thought. Perhaps into categories such as Legal Aspects, Local Information (for states' info on lighting policies), etc. Also, there should be a section dedicated to volunteers, as there is a lot of information on that. 204.52.215.2 20:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)Jantman[reply]

Refactor?

Personally, I think this article could do with a bit of refactoring. Firstly, it should be moved to somewhere more general - the form factor section's already covering individual lights, and few regulations distinguish between light bars and individual lights; they're just separate ways of meeting the same end. I'm not sure what the new article should be. Emergency vehicle lighting, while a possibility would tend to exclude utility vehicles. Secondly, the 'colours' and 'lightbars by service' sections should be merged into each other as both vary enormously from country to country (the latter is already very USA-centric). Any objections or suggestions (especially with regards to a new name)? --Scott Wilson 21:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree in that "light bar" is really the only unique term for roof-mounted warning lights on vehicles, even if it does tend to marginalize single beacons. "Light bar" is what people will be searching for. 151.203.54.174 19:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, i'm the one who created the "lightbars by service" section a few months ago. This was to refactor the preexisting "lightbars and emergency vehicles" and "lightbars and utility vehicles" sections. It was also to separate the colors from the services, so that, say someone searching for "green" would get a general discussion about Incident Command, volunteer firefighters, and security guards, while under "by service" there'd be a more detailed discussion about red vs. green vs. blue for volunteer firefighters. However at the time, the article was 100% USA-centric. Perhaps we could create "colors" and "service" categories subcategories for the specific countries. 151.203.54.174 19:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification on the term "lightbar"

"Lightbar" refers to a bar of lights or group of lights arranged in a bar-like formation. A lightbar does NOT include beacons, single unit strobes, or any other kind of light. A Vector is classified as a lightbar, by the way.

Vectors, though, can be mentioned in an article about beacons, but is classified as a lightbar. -StonedChipmunk 01:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: I remember making this section a long time ago and not signing it, sorry if I accidentally took someone else's work to be my own (if I screwed up)

I agree, and move to start a motion to move this page to a more appropriate title - Bennyboyz3000 09:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Move page

I belive this page needs a move to a more appropriate title that encompasses all these forms of lighting mentioned here, not only lightbars. -Bennyboyz3000 09:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree. There's all kinds of names for emergency vehicle lighting ( I'd never heard of "single beacons" before coming to this page ), but "lightbar" is what people will be searching for. Squidfryerchef 05:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We can always leave a redirect from light bar - just as there currently is one from lightbar. The fact that there are many different names is, IMNSHO, even more of a reason to move this page to something generic, although I'm blowed if I can figure out what. --Scott Wilson 10:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't this be covered under emergency vehicle equipment? The pictures on the page are mostly showing off the cars, not the lightbars, and the close up of the inner workings, while a good picture, is a beacon. Vote for move and leave a redirect.CptnSkippy 16:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merging this article to Emergency vehicle equipment would quadruple the size of that article, which also has to include radios, winches, stretchers, and many other types of equipment. I'd say lets direct our efforts to improving this page as it is. The point is that yes, parts of this article also apply to "gumball" lights or lights under the grill, but "light bar" makes a good archetype for all the different warning lights you see on the road. Squidfryerchef 02:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What about emergency vehicle lighting then? --Scott Wilson 02:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Better, but it's just that the page has a long history of edits as "light bar" that it's one of those "don't move the cheese situations". I'd have preferred the single word "lightbar" anyway but since it's been here a long time let's leave it where it is and spend our energy working on the article itself. Squidfryerchef 05:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good point about enlarging the equipment page, and EV lighting would be a good cover all. I know light bar has history, but the general lighting term might be better encompassing and allow for beacons, dash, deck and those little tir3 surface mount things.CptnSkippy 17:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can we get a show of hands of US vs. UK language preference? I'm from the US, and "lightbar" seems to have taken on an umbrella usage here, at least on the various forums i've seen. That might not be the case in other English-speaking countries and may account for the periodic suggestions to rename page. On the other hand "beacon" seems to be used in Commonwealth countries but not the US. Squidfryerchef 02:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In my (UK) personal experience, lightbar (not sure about the spelling though) and beacon are both perfectly valid, but separate terms. Beacons aren't lightbars and vice-versa. This is why we should put this at something generic; that way it works for UK English as well as US English - even if lightbar is a generic term there, they would still understand what emergency vehicle lighting meant, and we could mention that lightbar is used generically. Also, we can always have redirects from lightbar, light bar, beacon and anything else we can think of to rescue those looking for specific items. --Scott Wilson 13:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

US here. Beacons and Lightbars are both types of lighting equipment. To me, the term beacon reminds me of the 1980's blue gumball lights from the Florida Highway Patrol. If I'm not mistaken, Michigan State Police still use a single beacon on the roof of their cars.CptnSkippy 15:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've dropped my objections and now vote for "Emergency Vehicle Lighting". It will make a nice branch from Emergency Vehicle Equipment as well. Squidfryerchef 02:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A agree, the details about lightbar and the history is good knowledge and belongs on the current page, but different colours used by different countries should be somewhere else. Btw. I could add a few countries to the list, but i am hesitant to shuffle around the countries already there.

What about the term gyrophare ? 72.53.102.43 (talk) 09:50, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PAGE MOVED

I am just about to move the page to Emergency vehicle lighting per consensus above. --Ben 05:48, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As the page has now been moved, please feel free to share concerns on this talk page. The article will still need rewording to replace the generic light bar term with emergency vehicle lighting or something similar. --Ben 05:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Photos

The photo of the NYPD cruiser, though a good one, didn't really illustrate the Vector lightbar. Since things were becomeing cramped, I removed it to here, in case someone can make better use of it than I. --Badger151 00:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This Picture shows a flat police lightbar. This picture was taken at the Hopewell Township Police Department. --FBIgnelson 00:44, 13 March 2006

The NYPD pic is definitely a Vector, but you're right, it's hard to tell in that thumbnail. Thanks for moving it. -StonedChipmunk 02:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Japan pic, Section?

There's a pic there, but it would be great to see a section added to put it in. But I know exactly 0 about japanese colors / law enforcement so... Zotel - the Stub Maker 14:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would you like a pictues of a newer police units or other departments to be add?
Rasseru 22:32, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NJ EMT's vehicle

Although it is an impressive display of lights, there should be clarification on this. Even though it has a lightbar, I think it should be moved to something like Emergency vehicle equipment because there are many other lighting implements on the vehicle that have nothing to do with lightbars. -StonedChipmunk 02:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge Dashboard light into this article

I propose a merge from Dashboard light into this article, as they significantly overlap (see WP:MERGE). A dashboard light is an Emergency vehicle lighting product. I have tagged the articles as such, and will go ahead and merge them soon provided there are no objections --Ben 08:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Texas legislation

I'm questioning whether some legislation in Texas is relevant to the page. The web page linked to has several versions of the bill, but the one I'm looking at (enrolled/bill/html) [2] doesn't really mention lighting. Most of it had to do with which vehicles can go through tollbooths for free during a disaster.

The only mention of lights was in this context:

	The exemption from payment of a
 	toll for an authorized emergency vehicle applies regardless of
 	whether the vehicle is:
 	             (1)  responding to an emergency;
 	             (2)  displaying a flashing light; or
 	             (3)  marked as an emergency vehicle.

And the only mention of RACES was in this context:

 	The emergency management council shall make
 	recommendations to the Department of Public Safety as to which
 	private emergency organizations, such as the American National Red
 	Cross, the Salvation Army, Radio Amateur Civil Emergency Service,
 	and other similar organizations with the capability to supplement
 	the state's resources in disaster situations, should be authorized
 	to operate certain vehicles as designated emergency vehicles in the
 	case of a disaster.

So this law doesn't actually designate RACES vehicles as emergency vehicles. It just says that this council will have the power to designate private organization's vehicles as emergency vehicles during a disaster, and they happened to use RACES as an example.

Now the law that's being amended, it might have something that says emergency vehicles may have flashing lights. But we're way, way out on a limb there. Besides, even if it was true it might be overspecific. For example, in states that enumerate a list of which vehicles may use amber, I remember Rhode Island included the REACT CB organization, I'm sure there's many states that allow RACES to use amber. If ham volunteers were given some unusual color like green or purple that would be notable, but if they're going to be alongside "implements of husbandry" and "ice cream vendors" in a long list of who may use amber, that probably doesn't belong here. Squidfryerchef 00:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well - overwhelming evidence against having the comment in there - I'll take it out until we see more concrete evidence, etc. --Ben^complain 05:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK. It's extremely doubtful that ham volunteers would be allowed anything other than amber. If you've ever seen the website hamsexy.com they're always making fun of hams who have too many lights on their cars. I'm sure they would have a field day ( no pun intended ) if hams were considered emergency vehicles. Anyway it might be interesting to have a section for disaster vehicles and how they are treated in different states. AFAIK in California even the Red Cross is limited to amber. P.S. what do you think of the recent near-rewrite of the page? Do we want all those changes? Squidfryerchef 01:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well as you brought it up, i'll anticipate any reaction - I have reordered the article significantly because the previous layout confused physical form with technical specifications with usage. The main change is moving everything around so it sits with like information. There was also some rewriting to give a more general and international view of beacon use. Hope that helps. Owain.davies 06:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's just a lot of new material to digest at once. We typically have a couple of people maintaining the page, and every week or so a new user comes by and adds a paragraph. Then we spend a good amount of time debating and editing just that one paragraph ( e.g. the above discussion ). I'll start a new talk section to bring up some points here and there. Squidfryerchef 02:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Took out Texas paragraph per discussion. Squidfryerchef 02:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion of new material

We've gotten a lot of new material over the past few days. Our usual examination of every little change and doing the discussion through revision comments wouldn't work. Perhaps we can bring up some brief questions/comments here.

LED lights: Do they really have revolving "gumball" beacons with LEDs inside, instead of bulbs? Squidfryerchef 02:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen one, although admittedly it was on a manufacturers prototype car, and i didn't think to take a picture at the time. I'll have a hunt around and see if there are any commerically available ones. I did also see a large round unit on a concept vehicle, with LEDs all the way round which flashed in pattern to give the impression of a rotator. Let me see if i can find some citations (although the whole article isn't very well, so it's not the number one priority) Owain.davies 06:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Couple of interesting sites i found - this is the product i was talking about:

http://www.coolsafetyproducts.com/site/898652/page/575806

And here are a couple of other interesting LED light rotators

Hope that answers the question. Owain.davies 06:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the matter is, how common is the use of an LED element in a rotating beacon and how much space do we want to devote to it? Also we probably don't want those links as references, though they are useful to our internal discussion here. They show some LED rotating beacons but they don't appear to be meant for police use. One is a small battery-operated light, one is for fire alarms or industrial controls, and the other is for marine use on buoys. On the other hand, if we can come up with an article that says some emergency services are choosing LED-based rotators, then that would definitely work. Squidfryerchef 04:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough as regards refs. I know some organisations use them, but WP:V might be harder to come by, as it's not the sort of thing that tends get written down! There is a breakdown service that uses the type shown on the marine buoy (a large central unit with rotating effect) - hey, it's not all about police cars! Owain.davies 06:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Really? As in, with LEDs going all around to electrically simulate a rotating light? Anyway, I did find an example of an LED-based rotating beacon, and this product is clearly intended for use on motor vehicles: http://www.aps-supply.com/product_details.php?itemid=540 Squidfryerchef 21:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Liability for "moth effect": I saw the mention that a U.S. tow company was found liable for a "moth to flame" issue where a tow company was found liable when another driver steered towards the lights. This is important and we really need more information about this. Which jurisdiction, was the verdict ever appealed? Note: I found another British study that mentions the incident in a little more detail. While it doesn't go into specifics either, it cites the Feb 1998 issue of the U.S. trade journal Tow Times. I wonder if I could get that issue somewhere. http://dspace.lboro.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/2134/527/1/TT779%20AR2344.pdf Squidfryerchef 22:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely agree that more info on this would be great. Just need to find 'tow times'. Sadly, not one of the exciting magazines I subscribe to! Owain.davies 07:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Breakdown by country

Now that I have restructured the article in to a slightly more logical form, I think that we ought to cut down, or ideally remove the country by country breakdown. This generally makes articles look a lot better and easy to use. We can amalgamate key information on colour in to the Wikitable, and then other useful information can be used in the text, where it is relevant to a particular country etc. Any thoughts?

Owain.davies 07:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, actually I think adding that table is premature. The issue is, a country by country table isn't workable for North America and Australia, where the colors are set at the state level. Also the definitions of services are variable, various U.S. states and Canadian provinces have separate categories for volunteer firefighter's cars, snowplows, tow trucks, private security, disaster relief, and hearses. Some of the detail for European countries would be overspecific if applied to the U.S.; for instance the bit about Swedish police using both white and blue; while in the U.S. you might find blue/white, blue/red, blue/amber, blue/red/amber, and solid blue all used by different departments within one state. A possible compromise though could be to put continental Europe in its own table, as most of the information there is far less detailed than we have for the English-speaking countries, and they are more likely to have national police forces that standardize on a single color. Squidfryerchef 21:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like a good solution, almost everything can go in to the table, but the US is awkward! As for the categories, we could easily add a couple of others in (snowplough for instance), but that was what i tried to do with the end column. Owain.davies 08:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The other issue is that a table might not be the best solution. We might want to ultimately have prose for each country that explains how each service uses emergency vehicle lighting, explains the laws and the customs involved, a lot more information than just a color in a table. Squidfryerchef 03:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Squidfryerchef, we need to use most of the information by country there, just in a more efficient manner. Obviously a table isn't appropriate - it would remove lots of good information --Ben^chat 04:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The current function is not quite effective either, there are a variety of different colours of lights in Europe for example fire trucks use Yellow lights in Spain, Red and Blue in Cyprus, Red or sometimes blue in Greece. Green can be used by security vehicles or used to mark command posts depending on country. UK vehicles can show flashing red to the rear... Perhaps it would be best to have a page of it's own for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.142.192.90 (talk) 13:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you have a published source that says that in Spain, yellow is primarily used for fire trucks, go ahead and add it. Squidfryerchef (talk) 21:56, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody seems to have taken into account that, in the UK, a green light symbolises a doctor. If nobody objects, I'll endeavour to put a mention on it soon, when I have time to find sources.

Also, I partially agree with some of the above posts in that the article, particularly the country by country analysis should be consolidated or put in a summary at the start of the section, though it should definitely stay in- for trivia of nothing else. HJ Mitchell (talk) 21:33, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Intro and purpose

I have reverted a set of changes by squidfryerchef and this is the logic as he reinstated them. As for the intro, he is very keen to make beacon and lightbar distinct types, which is simply not the case in large parts of the world, where either term can be used interchangeably. Therefore, in the introduction this MUST be given as different naming conventions, rather than separate technical types.

As for the removal of the purpose section, i think it is very important to outline the key usage of warning beacons, along with their placement. I have no problem with the removal of the almost duplicate section regarding which way the lights face, but i firmly believe we need the detail on the section as to why each set of lights is used - basic training for emergency drivers!

Lastly, he seems intent on removing the section on the use of lights for training - whereas this is cleary a permitted purpose in most areas!

Hope that makes sense now. Owain.davies 09:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to keep the opening paragraph concise. But there are a couple of interesting points you brought up which I want to explore further.

After the phrase "Emergency vehicle lighting refers to any of several visual warning devices, I have "such as light bars or single beacons" and you have "which can also be known as light bars or beacons". I'm asserting that it isn't just a naming convention. Most of the contributors to this article wanted a distinction between full-size lightbars and small, omnidirectional beacons, which ended up in a debate that lead to the renaming of the article.
"Motorists" vs. "road users". Another point is whether "road users" should be used to include pedestrians in who is to be warned by emergency lights. I'm asserting that while the lights might be used to warn people crossing the street, bicyclists, unicyclists, and roller skaters, they're _primarily_ used to warn motorists, and it's better rhetoric to just use the most common case.
3 paragraphs to explain the reasons for having the lights? I'm asserting that some of that is obvious and can be trimmed down to one paragraph. But it's possible this is describing a standard practice in the U.K.; if so, can we get a source? As an aside, the fire services in the U.S. are also adopting guidelines about having their lighting in different modes for responding versus stationary. But lots of other services simply use one light with one switch that serves all purposes.
Training exercises. I think this situation is relatively uncommon, and depending how robust the exercise is, would come under either "an emergency" or "a hazard".
In some areas, this may be a legal restriction. It's probably a legal restriction everywhere; I can't imagine any jurisdiction that allows those kind of lights as, for instance, a decoration, or for advertising, on the public roads.

Squidfryerchef 15:41, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It may be a naming convention to some people, but not all, so the presumption should be to the widest use in the introduction. You can explain the convention further down if you think its warranted.
Motorists vs road users - Fundamentally disagree that it is primarily for other motorists. I appreciate that pedestrians are relatively uncommon in the US compared to the UK, but they require more protection than the average motorist. Again, the article should defer to the generalist view - unless you can PROVE they are only for motorists (and then what about motorbikes, trucks, bicycles, horse riders...)
Reasons for lighting - I can try and find a source. I think your point about the fire service strengthens the case for having the paragraphs split out. Many (most now) agencies in the UK have different lighting for different situations. This section attempts to explain the reasons that lighting will be employed. It is only obvious to those people in the know, not necessarily members of the public, and even if it was, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be written down.
Training Exercises - Training is uncommon? I hope not for your sake. Are you saying that where you live, drivers are just allowed to take out a vehicle with beacons and sirens with no training? That is just dangerous! As the vast majority of places mandate training, that means every single person who uses them will be qualified, and will have had to have done it - therefore not so uncommon!
It depends on the type of light - emergency lighting doesn't just go on the core emergency services. Many countries have unrestricted use of amber beacons! And I would pose the theory that many developing countries have never bothered to legislate. Again, needs proving if you want to claim it is an absolute.

Owain.davies 17:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In the article we've settled on "light bars" for multiple lights all under the same housing, on the roof of a vehicle, and "single beacons" for single rotating or strobe lights. In the U.S you'd either hear that, or just "lightbars" as a stand-in for all emergency lights. So to many of the editors here, the two different names refer to two different things. In the U.K. is the term "lightbar" not used at all?
Motorists and pedestrians - I still say the lights are mainly for motorists; I couldn't picture an emergency vehicle driving through a busy pedestrian area using only lights with no siren to clear the way. Where I am they put the siren in "yelp" mode and use the air horn. Pedestrians don't have their eyes on the road and might not see the lights. Plus the other uses of lights, to pull drivers over or warn drivers of a stopped vehicle ahead, aren't applicable to pedestrians. Also where I live, everything is either a "pedestrian" or a "motor vehicle"; a bicycle ridden in the street has to obey all the traffic laws. So I think if "motorists" applies 95% of the time we should use that word and not enumerate all exceptional cases.
Reasons - Yes, there is an NFPA document about using lights in different modes. But there's a reason it's only a brief footnote ( under the U.S. section on fire services ) at this point; do we really want to compare and contrast all similar guidelines around the world?
Training - There's police academies and firefighting academies that do training on a closed course. In the U.K. do they actually do training exercises on the public roads?
Unrestricted - I think even in places that allow individuals to put amber lights on their vehicles, they still need a reason to turn them on, like they're shoveling snow or towing something.

Squidfryerchef 14:23, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you'd hear lightbar, but more often you'd hear beacon to describe any type of light (multiple or single), thats why in the intro paragraph, i think we need to give them as alternative names and go in to more depth later if required
We generally wouldn't use sirens in a pedestrian area. For one, its not usually needed (normal service horn would suffice) and secondly it does tend to scare people! I can't agree with using motorists (pedal bikes are definitely not motorists!) - road users is clearly the best term
Reasons - Its not about comparing and contrasting guidelines - its just about the usage in different situations (which won't change from country to country)
Training - In the UK, the vast majority of training is done on the public road - its the only way to accurately train people in how other road users react. I would be very surprised if US agencies pass their drivers safe without doing this. Do you have personal experience?
Unrestricted - Quite possibly, but that doesn't in itself constitute proof, therefore "in some areas" still stands - it can't be an absolute without proof —Preceding unsigned comment added by Owain.davies (talk • contribs) 17:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Beacon does seem to be more popular in Commonwealth countries. We can keep "which may be known as".
How about the earlier phrase "motorists and pedestrians" then?
Reasons - It sounds like some services in the U.S. are only recently doing something that has long been standard practice in the U.K. It's still common here to see emergency vehicles with all lights lit regardless of the situation, never mind tow trucks and private security. Ultimately we may want a new section called "Modes" that explains how in some countries the lighting is to be used in different combinations for different purposes, and for example in the UK they do X,Y,Z, and in the US the fire vehicles are starting to do M,N,P.
Training - I don't know how much training is done on the actual roads, but until now I've been unaware of it. I'm not a firefighter, but I keep up with the local fire buff media enough that I ought to have heard about it. It's possible they either train without any lights or sirens, or they train as part of a ridealong program to actual emergencies. But if Britain does train this way, then we should keep "training" in the intro.
Unrestricted - How about "generally" or "most" instead of "some areas"?

Squidfryerchef 20:39, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Beacon - Sorted
Road users - what about horse riders? people on pedal cycles? wheelchair users? mobility scooters? I'm not sure what your objection to road users is, as it encompasses everything
Reasons - I would be reluctant to support even more country specific info on here, as i generally feel this would be better covered in indivdual articles on emergency vehicles of certain countries. I still think we should generally list the purposes of use.
Training - I think that's agreed to keep training in as a use? If so, Sorted.
Unrestricted - Fine by me. Might still want a source though.

Owain.davies 11:49, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Road users - "motorists and pedestrians" sounds more forceful. I think the readers will understand, if we say both motorists and pedestrians, that we're including everything in between. Though, after looking around online, it seems like "road users" is a very common phrase in Commonwealth countries. It may be just a difference in English usage. In the U.S. we would just say "motorists"; "road users" just wouldn't have the right ring to it.
Reasons - We can hold this over for future. Right now that information seems kind of obvious but could be a starting point for an explanation of how some services are starting to use different modes of lighting. But I certainly won't be getting around to it any time soon, and then we'd have to deal with the many IP editors adding dozens of lighting guidelines for different services in different countries. There's a lot of information already here that needs copyediting.
Training - yes, sorted.
Unrestricted - OK, I'll speak in generalities. Eventually I could add something to the U.S. "utility vehicles" section explaining how some states actually list all the classes of vehicles which may use amber( with a source ) vs. those that have a permit but let anybody apply vs. those that list specific uses.

Squidfryerchef 01:56, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I could agree with 'motorists, pedestrians and other road users' or just 'motorists and other road users' or something similar, but I don't feel we should leave the others out. Owain.davies 21:09, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IMNSHO, "motorists, pedestrians and other road users" is an excellent compromise - it uses the umbrella term, and hence covers everything, but also gives a couple of examples to those who may not be sure quite how far 'road user' extends. --Scott Wilson 23:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't we concentrate on trying to improve the substance of the article rather than minor grammatical technicalities? Anyway, the country by country information is interesting, though could, perhaps, be consolidated —Preceding unsigned comment added by HJ Mitchell (talk • contribs) 21:43, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Different versions of the ICE study

There's a British study about which lights are most noticeable, which provides several references to this article. But on the web I've found similar documents, including one that goes into more detail on the moth effect and references a U.S. magazine about a lawsuit in that area. I'm planning to link that also, but am showing all the links here to clear up any confusion.

This 19-page report is what we're linking to now: http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29wgs/wp29gre/greinfdoc/48inf02.pdf

This March 2000 "summary report" appears to be very similar to the one we're linking to now, and includes a title page with the author's names:

http://hdl.handle.net/2134/520
(dspace.lboro.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/2134/520/1/TT779%20AR2183.pdf - they prefer we link to the handle.net URLs)

This June 1999 "final report" is a much longer 131 pages:

http://hdl.handle.net/2134/527
(dspace.lboro.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/2134/527/1/TT779%20AR2344.pdf)

Squidfryerchef 16:23, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bodywork mounted

Common places to mount such beacons include on or in the grille of the vehicle and on the front of the rear view mirrors, where they can gain maximum visibility, or as additional lighting such as on the side of the bonnet which helps increase the warning for oncoming traffic when pulling out of junctions.

This I haven't seen before. I've seen corner strobes, where they put white strobe lights inside the directional signals, but are these lights actually on the hood of the car or are they on the side panels by the front wheel wells? Squidfryerchef 02:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We have strobes mounted on the actual bonnet (on top facing forward) and on the side (above the wheel arch or in that area) facing sideways to maximise visibility from the side as you pull out of a blind junction. I'll take a picture and post it. Owain.davies 08:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There's probably some web site we could link to here in the discussion that has pictures of them. I didn't want to copyedit that paragraph without seeing them myself because it might miss important points. I could work something in about our ambulances, which have a series of square lights all around the bubble-top. Squidfryerchef 00:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's true as well, we also have large incandecent or LED bulbs around the top of the vehicle with a slow flash rate for on scene use. Owain.davies 06:39, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lightbar and single beacon

I can see you've given single beacon and lightbar their own main headings again. I can't agree here - they are both roof mounted beacons, and therefore part of the same category. By doing this, we risk turnign the article back in to the mess it was before with form, function and placement all mixed in together. I'll see if i can work to improve it. Owain.davies 08:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, out of all the changes that were done in September, that was the one I understood the least. The preeexisting version organized lights by "form factor", and had sections for single beacons, lightbars, interior lights, and what later became the "vehicle integral" section. After "form factor", it had another top-level section about halogen vs. strobe vs. LED optics.

The new version organizes lights first by optical type and then by mounting type. That's fine too, but while the old version never settled whether rotating lights were an optical type or a special case of a single beacon, I wouldn't categorize it as a mess either.

I like the organization of optical vs. mounting type but question why the most popular types, single beacons and lightbars, shouldn't have their own headings. I'd like to keep the sections as a "balanced tree".

I'm suspecting that was done to avoid ambiguity in the section "single beacons", that we really mean roof-mounted "gumball" lights, not single lights mounted anywhere else on the vehicle. I think that with some choice in section titles we can emphasise those distinctions without adding extra levels to the heading tree, having the best of both worlds. Squidfryerchef 00:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Photos; is this cool?

I'm not sure about the new photo of the unmarked ( or POV ) car in Slovakia. Should we have the plate number visible on a pic like that? Anyway I asked at WP:VPP and at WP:LAWENFORCE project page, because this must have come up before. Squidfryerchef 22:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Meh. Unless Slovakia has any laws to the contrary, the fact that that car's operated by the police is self-evidently in the public domain. If it was that much of a problem, I suspect the driver would have stopped the photographer. --Scott Wilson 18:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's been a week and no consensus at either forum. I think we're left to our own judgement on this matter. There's also a third choice: turns out that Commons has extensive country-sorted galleries of police, fire, and ambulance vehicles. We could just put up a portal to that next to the Europe section ( those galleries are Europe-heavy and we are Europe-light ). That way the user can look up whatever county they want, and removes the temptation to add dozens of pics to the article. Squidfryerchef 13:03, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Added portal to Commons. Squidfryerchef (talk) 00:15, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Eleptogenic response

I've had a few edits back and forth regarding the term "eleptogenic response" and if/how we should be phrasing it in the article. Here's what I've come up with.

"Eleptogenic response" doesn't seem to be a very common term. A search turned up only the two Loughborough studies, plus two Wikipedia pages.
"Eleptogenic" by itself is more often used with regard to tissues, i.e. "eleptogenic neurons".
I got a hold of an edition of the Jeavons and Harding book, and couldn't find "eleptogenic response" either.
An epileptic reaction can range from an unusual feeling or "aura", to an involuntary twitch, up to a full seizure. An epileptic reaction also produces a distinctive activity on an EEG.
People may report distraction from working under flashing lights for reasons that have nothing to do with epilepsy. For instance, trying to do manual tasks under the stop-motion effect of a strobe light.
Has there ever been a traffic accident caused by an epileptic reaction to flashing lights?
The Jeavons and Harding book actually says "neither car indicators nor flashing warning lights on emergency vehicles constitute a risk, as they are restricted to 2 f/s or less"
The Loughborough studies may have been referring to lighting systems involving multiple beacons and mirrors.

Anyway, planning to rephrase that part of the article taking these points into account. Squidfryerchef (talk) 00:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I did:

Moved up "photosensitive epilepsy" as section header, clarified that it includes lesser symptoms than seizures.
Switched to "epileptogenic response" which seems to be more common spelling.
Qualified relevance of PSE in that this particular study pointed it out as an issue.
Redid book cite. The 10-20 fps figure is best associated with the Loughborough study, not the book, which studied various fps ranges.
Constrasted distraction/eyestrain unrelated to epilepsy.

Squidfryerchef (talk) 02:15, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My recent edits

Okay, I did a few things to the UK section, so here's a blow by blow account:

Rephrased and condensed quite a few things, especially things that were repeating themselves.
Re-added the UKEV citation a couple of times. While it's nice to cite the RVLRs, it's also good to have a human-readable summary available, too, especially bearing in mind that Wikipedia is not a lawyer and does not give legal advice.
While I like the Driving Magazine article - it's an interesting read - I don't think it specifically excludes vehicles being exempted; I think it's just the way the author's chosen to phrase things that puts it in terms of the driver. Given that other sources (UKEV for one) talk in terms of vehicles and the Road Safety Act amends section 87 (1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act to read "No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall apply to any vehicle...[emphasis mine]" I think it's wholly appropriate to talk about vehicles being exempt from regulations. That said, this one of of the sections I heavily condensed - we seemed to be saying a lot twice; I hope I haven't missed anything important out. --Scott Wilson (talk) 20:02, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Scott, sorry but i've removed the UK Emergency link again, because whilst I fully agree with the idea of having an easy to read summary, i can't support having one that contains so many 'facts' which are in direct contradiction of the actual law, such as the use of blue lights being linked to claiming of exemptions (they aren't), saying that warning beacons can be fitted if not connected (a road traffic offence) to name only two. If you can find a better site (and also, whilst on the subject, one which isn't self published) then I would fully support its inclusion. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 21:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-lock brake indicator?

I don't understand the "anti-lock brake" clause in the UK section. The doc cited says something about "a green warning lamp used as an anti-lock brake indicator". Do cars in the UK have a green light that flashes when ABS kicks in? I've never heard of that; please enlighten us. Squidfryerchef (talk) 22:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's exactly what it is, although it is not widely fitted. It is designed to give other drivers extra warning of hars hbraking, and is legal throughout Europe. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 12:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any chance we can get a footnote explaining what this light is for? Squidfryerchef (talk) 19:04, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excessive detail in UK section?

Okay, so we have a long list of who may use amber lights that comes from the UK vehicle code. I feel this is too much detail and we're not here to wikify the law, just describe it in general terms. Some cases listed are very strange ( i.e. "vehicles used for testing fuel" or "watering roads" ), some are redundant ( tow trucks and repo tow trucks are listed separately ), and some cases dont appear at all ( I find it hard to believe that vehicles used to maintain gas, electric, water, utilities don't have amber lights ). I'm trying to replace this list ( and the similarly excessive blue-light list ) with a general description like we have for all other countries; if someone wants to see the law they can click on the link. Squidfryerchef (talk) 19:44, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see where you're trying to go. I've been thinking about this, and I am coming to the conclusion that it might be worth splitting this article out in to country speific articles linked from the main page (as with Ambulance, for instance. For your interest, utilities lights are covered under highway maintenance, and as i've just added, the amber lighting laws are rarely enforced, with a wide number of vehicles flouting the regulations, but it is, nevertheless illegal. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 22:25, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we don't need separate articles, but I was picturing something that starts off with generalities.

One thing that's important is to say (which we do) there is a certain list of vehicles that may have amber ( as opposed to places that allow anyone to mount an amber light, or that allow anyone to apply for a permit ).
The next thing is, we might want to explain the categories differently than the law does ( i.e. we might separate public utilities from "highway maintenance", while summing up some of the rare categories like "fuel testing" under "etc."
Another is that while the law is one way to cite that something is authorized, it doesn't tell us what's popular among the different services, or about unorthodox or unauthorized uses.
As far as softening wording from "illegal" to "not specifically authorized", it's possible that some of the unorthodox uses such as police having rear-facing red strobes, or ambulances having amber, could be the result of some interpretation or a special permit, so it wouldn't be illegal, just not authorized by that particular law. Perhaps someone argued that the rear-facing red was really just a special case of hazard flashers, or that an ambulance could have a yellow light on the back because it was performing a maintenance duty on the roads. Of course some of this, in all countries, is a result of "if you're the king, and you think your men should have green lights on their cars, then they can." Squidfryerchef (talk) 00:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Malaysia

We need some info on Malaysia.... It seem that police have Blue Lights only and Red and Blue on Ambulances? Their are a few pictures and video data I seen around. I need something to back this up. Rasseru(talk) 22:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If we can get a source for these I'd be happy to have it. Also one thing to watch out for; is it the law of the land there that police that have only blue and that ambulances run red and blue, or is it just the custom? Also what about the other colors and services? Squidfryerchef (talk) 04:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looking in the Royal Malaysian Police and looking at pictures of their police units. Nothing but blue lights on main Police Units.
I guess we should trade data with that article. Looks at some Offical websites they show them Blue for Police and Red & Blue for Fire Department.

Rasseru(talk) 06:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another thing we have to watch out for, in writing about countries that have a national police or medical force, is are we writing about the lighting regulations of the country, or about what color the particular agency is using at the moment? I'd rather see statements like "color X is reserved for law enforcement use, while color Y may be used by all emergency services". Squidfryerchef (talk) 02:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I already added the Malaysia section, if anything wrong ,please notify and edit if possible. BlueHelvetical (talk) 05:53, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hazard lights

The switch is on the steering wheel in American cars. These cause the lights all over the car to flash. Used only if the car is a danger, such as it having a breakdown on the road. Powerzilla (talk) 23:31, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think you may have misunderstood the article - this is not about hazard lights, but about additional warning beacons, not fitted to normal cars. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 12:56, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a article on this? Powerzilla (talk) 15:36, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It hasn't got it's own article (probably quite rightly), but it's covered in Automotive lighting. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 23:14, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've now also created redirects from hazard light(s) and hazard flasher(s). OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 09:11, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Green Lights for Doctors in the UK

I retract my earlier statemnt regarding this matter, as the sub- section pertaining to it has since come to my attention, however, may I suggest slightly more enhancement. I have added a bullet point on the issue (I'm sure somebody will remove it and put it somewhere more approppriate if neccesary). Further, may I suggest adding a picture? I have one that might be appropriate but I'm unfamiliar with the complexities of editing, though if instructed, I would gladly upload it HJ Mitchell (talk) 22:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Her Majesty's Coastguard

As I stated in the article itself, HMCG do not have legal exemption from traffic regulations even operating under "blues and twos" and cannot legally oblige motorists to yield right of way, though I do not believe many people are aware of this. I've raised the issue in the article itself as it is not a major edit, but somebody may wish to incorporate it into the main body of text HJ Mitchell (talk) 22:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Marked vs unmarked

My understanding is that the term marked indicates that a vehicle has markings, such as text or a badge, indicating that it is an official vehicle. This is independant of whether any emergency lights are overtly or covertly mounted. Thus, a police car with a badge on the door, using only hide-away lights, is marked. I've therefor edited the following sentence: "Because of these visual advantages, these vehicles are sometimes referred to as 'stealth' or 'semi-marked' vehicles as opposed to their 'marked' counterparts," cutting out the part of the sentence that discussed markings. --Badger151 (talk) 02:10, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Russia

Just about all Russian emergency vehicles have blue, but isn't it true that in Russia now for a vehicle to pull you over, it must have flashing red? 174.54.123.98 (talk) 20:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Red lights being used by Law Enforcement in the United States

I know, for a fact, that the Humane Law Enforcement Department (HLE) of the New York City-based American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA) uses all-red lightbars on the top of their marked vehicles. I do not know if this is legal in the State of New York, but I thought that I should just put that thought out there.L.J. Tibbs (talk) 16:55, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

blue lights

I'm from NY State. Police use red lights and volunteer firemen use blue. I've noticed in most of New England (MA and NH), the state police and Boston police use blue lights. Please note this on the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.69.121.132 (talk) 01:53, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Variety of English

I have placed the {{American English}} template on this page since that is the variety of English used in the first version of the article. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:18, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hawaii

Hawaii uses blue lights for their police cars, much like Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.129.243.31 (talk) 16:01, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dangers

Although this addresses photosensitive epilepsy, it ignores the fact that these lights can be disorienting, blinding, or incapacitatingly painful. Add in turn signals, etc. and I can't walk down the street without getting hit by these accursed things. I have ended up in the street after being disoriented by these. 108.45.79.25 (talk) 17:11, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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White lights in USA section

The second bullet point here is practically unreadable and converys little useful information. It needs someone familiar with the situation to rewrite it; I would, but I don't know the details of what it's trying to say. G7mzh (talk) 21:39, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Original research

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New Zealand

"The UK along with Australia, Canada, New Zealand and several other commonwealth countries now use green emergency lights along with the USA to identify their special security vehicles while on secured facilities as well as responding to any security breach at a facility."

I've corrected this, green indicates a doctor midwife or nurse on urgent business in NZ.

I've also added Purple (Magenta) for load pilots to the NZ section

Falcon5nz (talk) 22:01, 16 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Red flashing lights in France

During the Tour de France there was a car running point for the bicyclists, hight also have had a combined media/safety function. It was wearing at least one red gumball. knoodelhed (talk) 18:03, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have not read anything about any standards that apply to the design and testing of light systems; i.e. for example the ISO 4148:2004. I am in Canada. 198.33.159.251 (talk) 21:15, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Uruguay

Emergency Lights code

Red and Blue: Police cars Green: Public ambulances and private ambulances. Red: Fire Trucks and Fire ambulances. Amber: Tow Trucks or utility vehicles

(↓ exceptions ↓)

All blue: Old or outdated police cars 167.58.146.153 (talk) 19:46, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]