Talk:Elvish languages of Middle-earth/Archive 1

Archive 1

Initial discussions

In the worlds of Tolkien, the adjective "elven" is widely used: elven lore, elven kings, etc. I am not an expert in Tolkien's worlds, so I am wondering whether all wiki-Tolkien articles must replace "elvish" by "elven", or there is a delicate difference in the terms, invisible to a non-native Elvish and English speaker :-) (ha-ha only serious) Mikkalai 06:54, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

According to the English language, "Elvish" is the correct term. Tolkien's "Elven" is 'incorrect'. Then again so was Dwarves before the professor introduced this plural instead of Dwarfs. Personally I use 'An Elven King', 'Elven folk' etc. when referring to Tolkien's Elves, but use 'Elvish language', 'Elvish folk' etc. when referring to Elves in general. — Jor 10:00, Jan 7, 2004 (UTC)

I don't think people'd mind either of the terms (my English - Dutch dictionary includes both 'Elven' and 'Elvish'), but please don't use Elfin… — Jor 10:09, Jan 7, 2004 (UTC)

Tolkien did use elvish, and was quite annoyed when the publisher "corrected" it to elfish for the first edition (see the Note on the Text in current Houghton Mifflin editions of FotR). Salsa Shark 10:11, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

He used both Elvish and Elven in his text. Earlier texts used Elvish only, later text used mainly Elven, except in the term 'Elvish language'. — Jor 10:20, Jan 7, 2004 (UTC)

From Elfling: The English adjective for "of or relating to Elves" is "Elvish" (or "Elven" in certain cases, but for languages, endings in -ish are preferred). — Jor 10:23, Jan 7, 2004 (UTC)

I'm probably the only person on Earth here at this moment— Croissant 11:16, Apr 18, 2021 (BST)

Continuing a 17 year old discussion? I should hope so! But all the Tolkien language articles are indeed in need of knowledgeable attention to provide citations from scholarly sources, so, welcome! Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:41, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Elven? Language or merely writing?

As far as i've understood he merely created a new set of writing not a language? but maybe thats not what the article meant! Anyone care to update me on current events? They spoke Elven in LOTR but maybe that was not the language he wrote? Anyone care to give some simple translations or commonly used phrases? if they exist? I'm lost :(!

Resources for Tolkienian Linguistics Tolkien created both a language and a script, though I don't think the language was developed enough to really use. I don't know if what they spoke in the movies was anything Tolkien would have understood. Elvish script is fairly easy to learn and they're used to be a lot about it on Wikipedia. Where is that? - Chatoyant 16:33, 25 June 2005 (UTC)

Tolkien created several languages actually. In LOTR two Elven languages appear, Sindarin and Quenya. He also created at least three alphabets, two of which were used inside his fiction by the Elves (Tengwar and Sarati). The third was a "new English alphabet". Jordi·✆ 19:20, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A sample of Sindarin Elvish: "Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo!" Translation: "A star shines upon the hour of our meeting." It's a common, if beautiful and ornate, greeting amongst the Elves in Middle-Earth. -Kasreyn 08:51, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Factually incorrect. This is Quenya, as spoken in the 3rd Age (QE)--Elistir 10:10, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

---

"Josh, "The Emperor", from Gene Simmons' Rock School spoke Elvish."

Should this be included? The question really needs to be asked: Which one? If this cannot be correctly answered, then this piece of trivia should be deleted.

The elvish languages of Tolkien are not limited to Middle Earth. Would it be more proper to call them the "Elvish Languages of Arda"?

The link to the "The Tolkienian Linguistics FAQ" is somewhat idiosyncratic in its presentation and perhaps should not have such a prominent position in the link list? Maybe it can stay where it is and be named "Elvish Linguistic Fellowship’s Tolkienian Linguistics FAQ" (or something similar) to reflect its singular viewpoint?

I think I have to disagree about calling them "The Elvish Languages of Arda". While you're right that within the Tolkien milieau, it is more correct to say they are of Arda, it's probably less encyclopedic. It's confusing to the layperson (ie., people who don't reread the Silmarillion yearly like some of us ;), and plus "Middle-Earth" is a pretty widely-accepted identifying term for the entire corpus of Tolkien's works, not just the actual geography of his worlds. I know, it's not exactly that correct from an Elf's viewpoint, but from the viewpoint of someone who has only seen the Peter Jackson movies and wants to learn more, we would do a disservice to introduce confusing terms like "Arda" too quickly. Just my 2 cents... -Kasreyn 05:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Hard G

"The letter g is always pronounced in the hard form, as in giant. For instance, go is pronounced Joe."

That just doesn't seem right. The g in giant is IPA [ʤ] (voiced postalveolar affricate), and is traditionally called "soft G" in English. The hard form of G is IPA [g] (voiced velar plosive), like the initial consonant of get.

The problem is that I am not familiar with "Elvish languages" so I don't know if the description or the examples are wrong, but something needs to be fixed here. --Adolar von Csobánka (Talk) 18:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The article on Sindarin suggests that the IPA value is [g] so the description is correct and the examples are not - but I'd be happy if someone checked this @ a more reliable source before I correct this in the article. --Adolar von Csobánka (Talk) 18:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

To quote Tolkien;

"G has only the sound of g in give, get: gil 'star', in Gildor, Gilraen, Osgiliath, begins as in English gild." - LotR, Appendix E

I don't know IPA, but it is 'g' as in 'give' rather than as in 'gem'. Thus, the examples in the article are wrong. --CBD 15:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

About the Tree.

a) Quenya. There's should be a difference between Pre-record Quenya (as sucessfully examined by HF) that leadst to Quenya Vanyarin (Quendya) and Quenya Noldorin (Classic Quenya). The latter will lead also to the Exilic Quenya (and possibile if we want to insert it, Quenya 3rd Age).

b) Common Eldarin. With the division of the CE branch, we have the Pre-record Quenya and the Common Lindarin. The latter will differentiate in Common Nandorin and Common Telerin.

c) Common Telerin > Old Sindarin >

a)North Sindarin Branch > Mithrim

b)South Sindarin Branch >

a)Doriathrim (Doriathrin is another language devised before the 40s)

b)Falathrim (which is the Western Branch of the Sindarin family, this branch is the one we usaully call "Sindarin". | Falathrin is another language present in the Etym.)

--Elistir 10:08, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:EL

The external links of many and varied flavours need to be reviewed with WP:EL, particularly in the light of "WP is not a link farm" and the nature of the article, while biased towards Tolkien, is about elven languages, of which Tolkiens are just the most famous there of. Any comments or should I just dive right in? Shot info 03:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

This entire section is irrelevant to a broadbrush discussion on elvish (elven) languages across fantasy literature. I probably should be removed to an article on Tolkien's invented languages, specifically Quenya or Sindarin. Shot info 04:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

(In the chart) In letter "a", which is pronounced /α/, someone wrote "like fathom". That word, however, is pronounced /'fæðǝm/ (standard). Well, I'll delete said comparison.--Quinceps 04:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Origin?

I remember reading somewhere that he based it on Finnish. But the article does not even mention that. Even if I'm wrong, wouldn't a section on the development of the Elvish languages by Tolkein be appropriate? 125.238.132.123 (talk) 04:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a clear mention in the article that Quenya was strongly influenced by Finnish and Sindarin by Welsh. --Jhattara ^{(Talk · Contrib)} 07:47, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Greek Influence

It is very clearly stated in one of the articles that linguistic influence for Tolkien's languages came primarily from Finnish, and, to a lesser extent, Celtic. But it also came from Latin and Greek. Can anyone tell me or indicate where in the article Greek (or Latin) influence is explained --RokasT (talk) 21:24, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Is there a credible source for Latin/Greek influence? The only obvious Latin element that I see is the repertoire of phonemes and the characters that represent them; I see nothing at all that suggests Greek (but my knowledge of Greek is weaker). The declension of Quenya somewhat resembles that of proto-Indo-European, which is simplified to different degrees in the various descendant languages (Latin lost two of the eight cases, Greek lost three); but the morphology of the case endings is much more like Finnish than any IE language I know of. —Tamfang (talk) 23:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

The stress pattern is that of Latin. —Tamfang (talk) 03:12, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Most notably:

Actually it might be said to be composed on a Latin basis with two other (main) ingredients that happen to give me ’phonaesthetic’ pleasure: Finnish and Greek. (Letters:144)

Lammengollon (talk) 05:45, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

About Tolkien's language

1)He represented with G ALWAYS the sound that letter has in give or get, that is the soft g.

2)The letter C always represented the K sound, as in English cat or cow. It used to be represented as K in early "Quenya/Qenya"

3)Quenya had a strong influence of Finnish, but, also of Classical Latin and (in lesser extent) of Greek

4)Sindarin's influence was Welsh

5)Tolkien also made other ELVISH languages, like Nandorín (influenced by Italian)

6)He also made other not-elvish languages, like the Black Speech (Based in Gaelic) and Adunaic (Based in Hebrew) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.133.128.24 (talk) 02:51, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

(I took the liberty of spacing the lines so that, as I assume you intended, they're not all run on together.)

(1) What you call 'soft <g>' is conventionally called 'hard <g>' (or "velar <g>"); the other <g> is "softened" by palatalization (influence of a following front vowel).

(2) The article already says that. Would you call this a 'soft <c>'?

(3) The article already mentions the Finnish influence. Let's discuss Latin and Greek in the next section up.

(4) The article already says that.

(5) The article already lists other Elvish languages, including Nandorin. Have you a source for saying that Nandorin was influenced by Italian?

(6) This article is about Elvish languages. The "See also" section links to another article which lists and links non-Elvish languages. By the way, have you a source for saying the Black Speech is "Based in Gaelic"?

—Tamfang (talk) 23:37, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Telerin (as spoken in Valinor) is said to resemble Italian, if memory serves. —Tamfang (talk) 01:29, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

As is mentioned just below, d'oh —Tamfang (talk) 02:07, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Spanish and Italian

The kinship of Spanish and Italian is compared to the similarity of Telerin (of Alqualonde) with Quenya, and also to the radical difference of Sindarin! I reckon Sindarin is more aptly compared to French (or perhaps Romanian), so I'm changing accordingly. Any comparison is arguably OR, since I don't think Tolkien ever said anything of the sort. —Tamfang (talk) 23:15, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Indonesian native speakers doesn't have any difficulties pronouncing the languages (Q and S) as they match Indonesian pronounciation perfectly. I believe Latin is also pronounced the same way as Quenya and Sindarin. Bennylin (talk) 01:37, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Latin lacked Q v and S dh lh rh th y, and the S distinction between ae and ai; gw is possible in Latin but did not occur initially. One thing Q and S have in common with Latin is the stress pattern. —Tamfang (talk) 07:48, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

According to Malay language#Phonology, diphthongs like ae and oe (appearing in Þindarin, e.g. Maedhros, Nen Hithoel) do not exist in either Malay or Indonesian. S dh might be a problem for some speakers, as it only appears in Arabic loanwords, and S lh rh (= Q hl hr) would cause problems either way. (The Ñoldorin pronunciation of Q hy ty as [ç c] would also cause problems, but not the Vanyarin pronunciation as [ʃ tʃ].) Double sharp (talk) 14:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

recent changes by 90.54.1.73

Tolkien originally called "Qenya", his first Elvish language, Elfin.

Is this saying that the first Elvish language was "Elfin" and it was later renamed "Qenya", or something else? I don't offhand remember his using the word elfin (but I'm no authority).

The phonology, and grammar of Quenya and Sindarin are strongly influenced by Finnish, Latin, Greek and Welsh, respectively.

(The first comma comes from deletion of vocabulary.) When two things are matched to four, 'respectively' is problematic! I'd restore the sentence to its former state: The phonology, vocabulary and grammar of Quenya and Sindarin are strongly influenced by Finnish and Welsh, respectively. The influence of Finnish and Welsh is noteworthy and well documented; that of Latin and Greek is less so.

In addition to these two, Tolkien created many other (partially related) Elvish languages.

The word 'related' replaces 'derived'; I'm not happy with either. All Elvish languages are (in theory) derived from a common source, and thus related; there's no 'partially'.

Tolkien also created many scripts for his languages, including Tengwar and Cirth.

Tengwar, Cirth and Sarati. Do three make 'many', or have I forgotten some? —Tamfang (talk) 03:26, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the original name of the language (when Tolkien was in his teens) was 'Elfin'. No, there isn't as much establishment of Latin and Greek influence, but there is some (such as the simple fact that he knew both when he began working on Elfin, but only learned Finnish and Welsh later) - best course would probably be to add reference tags. There were many different modes of Tengwar (and a few of Cirth), but in general I'd agree the phrasing is clunky. --12.42.51.28 (talk) 12:14, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Languages of Arda which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 01:00, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Middle-earth's Philology

Middle-earth is neither a language nor a philologist, so I changed the section title to Philology in Middle-earth. This was reverted.

“ Known members of the Lambengolmor were Rúmil, who invented the first Elvish script, the Sarati. Fëanor who later enhanced and further developed this script into his Tengwar, and which later were spread to Middle-earth by the Exiled Noldor and remained in use ever after. Pengolodh who is credited with many works, the Lhammas and the Osanwe-kenta. ”

I removed the superfluous and (which makes Fëanor the only possible subject of were spread); changed the dots to semicolons to change one ungrammatical sentence (members were Rúmil?) and two sentence-fragments to a grammatical whole; and changed who is credited with many works (two = many?) to the more concise author of. These changes were reverted.

“ Daeron of Doriath, independently of the Lambengolmor, he lived in Beleriand, invented the Cirth or Elvish-runes. ”

I removed the ungrammatical and redundant insertion he lived in Beleriand (anyone of Doriath must have lived in Beleriand). This was reverted.

Someone has, shall we say, a very personal notion of English grammar, style and nuance. —Tamfang (talk) 21:41, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

the family tree

The table shows Quenya existing beside and contemporary with Common Eldarin. Shouldn't it be a descendant? —Tamfang (talk) 03:52, 13 June 2012 (UTC)