Talk:Elliott Smith/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Miss Misery

Changed the detail about Elliott writing Miss Misery as an original song for the film. He said that, yes, but only to make Gus Van Sant feel better. Miss Misery was written in 1995-1996, he played it in numerous live shows throughout 1996 and early 1997, and the early version that appears on New Moon further gives evidence to the fact that it was not penned for the film's soundtrack.

Category:Suicides

I've added this article to Category:Suicides -- regardless of the "we don't know" stance reflected in this article, since it's pretty widely believed he died by suicide, it should belong in that category. Whether or not he actually committed suicide, this article will probably be of interest to people browsing that category. It's sort of the nature of suspected suicides that it's often hard to know for sure what the real story is. As there's no Category:Possible suicides, Category:Unconfirmed suicides, Category:Suspected suicides, etc. this seems like the best place. Maybe the better place is List of suicides (see Wikipedia:Categorization of people) but either way, I wanted to raise the topic. (I prefer the category, but I have an anti-list bias.) -- Tetraminoe 04:47, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

It seems that the location of his death is more like Silverlake than Echo Park 69.230.214.142 22:30, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

i just wanted to pose a thought, and i do not mean to offend anyone who believes that he did not commit suicide, but the evidence against it was that there werent any hesitation wounds, and that there were bruises on his arm. well as far as the wounds on his arm, out of what i've seen he was very depressed, and out of experience depressed people will hurt themselves. Secondly, the hesitation wounds, sometimes when it comes to things like that there is no hesitation, maybe he knew he realy wanted it, or thought he did (im not condemning or supporting suicide) but maybe there was no hesitation within him. just thought i would say this little bit.

And this doesn't have so much to do with the article, but the idea that it is uncommon for people to stab themselves through clothing doesn't hold up so well - I read somewhere that a friend of Elliott's had said he wouldn't be caught dead (irony...) without his shirt on. So that could be explained as well. Nani 01:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

If you could cite where you read that it'd be a help for that being included in the article. - Phorque 05:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, amusingly, there is an old press photo of Elliott without a shirt on. Looks like conclusive evidence as to whether Smith's death was a suicide does not lie in his shirt-wearing habits. :P - Phorque (talk) 13:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

If cause of death is disputed...

...shouldn't we remove the suicide categories? He's in the cause-disputed category, and I think it's misleading to have him in the suicides categories when he isn't an official suicide. Anyone agree with me or know of a guideline that covers this? - Phorque 12:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I struggled with this. I was led to add the method of suicide Category because the Article already contained the Category ‘Entertainers who committed suicide’. Second thinking it, we need to go with what the Article presently presents to the reader: “His death has not been officially declared a suicide, and the investigation into his death continues.” Until an official determination is made I propose deleting both the ‘Entertainers who committed suicide’ & the ‘Suicide by sharp instrument’ Categories. - Michael David 12:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Memorial wall

I think the info on the memorial Figure 8 wall is an interesting addition to the article. I tried to find some kind of picture for fair use but I'm not too sure about just lifting sombody else's photo off the web. Can anybody find an image that would be fair game in the article. It's quite an interesting sight, the amount of personal messages to Elliott on that wall. - Phorque 12:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

i moved and also added to information about the wall from the "trivia" section in to the main article itself. it is a fairly important monument in the ES world, and seems (for the time being, at least) to be permenant. - Mikesherk 08:46, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Place of death

According to the coroner's report, Elliott suffered his fatal wound in a house on Lemoyne Street, which is between Glendale Blvd. and Echo Park Ave. It's in a really hilly area that I've always associated with Echo Park or, specifically, Elysian Heights (which I think is generally considered an adjunct of Echo Park). I'm not 100% sure, but I feel that this place is definitely in Echo Park, NOT Silverlake. Perhaps someone else could verify this.

• At the "Glendale Blvd." exit on the 2 South, which is less than half a mile north of Elliott's final residence, you see an Echo Park sign, clearly posted. Silverlake is west of that exit and, of course, his house. So, I hope that's some sort of clarification on the location.

separate biography and music?

Should we separate his personal life and his music career? Gflores ^Talk 18:08, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

• I don't see a need for it because the article is still an acceptable length. When band/musician articles do get too long, the first thing to be spun off into a new article is usually their discography. Also, an artist's personal life and their careers are often one in the same and we don't need any confusion/arguments about where a certain piece of info should go.--Hraefen 19:15, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Identifying Smith's Genre Placement

I'd call Elliott Smith a Folk-Rocker, anyone complacently oppose?

I disagree. I remember reading several interviews saying that he didn't want to be categorized as folk, in that his definition of folk music is a simple song with one message. He told people that he played "rock" music.

Shamrox 00:55, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, in most interviews he stated that his music was Pop. He said that because Pop doesn't have a single message and can be applied in many ways.

Honestly though, I don't understand what he means by that (I definitely don't think that about Pop), but he said it numerous times.

lead

Lead should be about 3 paragraphs per WP:LEAD. Just FYI. :) Gflores ^Talk 20:59, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

one of the last few unsourced statements

"I don’t think he would have delivered {that} record. The record he would have delivered would have had more songs, would have had different mixes and {been} a little more in-your-face"

This is from "Elliott Smith and the Big Nothing" right? Can somebody ref this or tell me the page number so that I can reference it?

That quote comes from this article, which is already quoted several times: http://www.confabulators.com/2005/elliott-smith-lives-again-from-a-basement-on-the-hill-v2

Shamrox 17:56, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

New page for discography?

what do you all think about making a new seperate page for the discography? it's well done, but the article is getting pretty big... Shamrox 22:59, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I think I agree. I think the Elliott Smith infobox can link to all his major releases and the in-depth singles listing can go into Elliott Smith discography.

awesome, looks way better. Shamrox 16:18, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Music videos

Should his music videos be included in the filmography, or spun off into a section of their own? (Blackout (Heatmiser), Why Did I Decide to Stay (Heatmiser) Plainclothes Man (Heatmiser) Coming Up Roses, Miss Misery, Baby Britain, Son of Sam.)--niiru

Good article

Great work on the bio! I was always a little sad when this page had a couple lines about Elliott and a couple paragraphs about his death.--24.69.218.228 09:01, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the praise! I've spent a lot of downtime working on this thing (under several screen names, as well). It really bummed me out too when I first saw the page and it only had a few lines. Shamrox 01:01, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Stab wounds

I noticed that an edit was made reverting two stab wounds to one. "Vandalism" was the cited reason. From my understanding (as well as the LA Coroner's Report that was drafted), he stabbed himself twice (in the chest and also in the abdominal region). --|puttypapyrus

I was under the impression the stab wound was single and that the editor of the article was intentionally falsifying information. If, in actuality, there were two stab wounds or the editor was mistaken, the note of vandalism should be rescinded with my apologies. Zookman12 18:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Thumbsucker

Removed Thumbsucker from the list of Full Length Albums. No reason for it to be there. It might have been intended for him to eventually compose the entire soundtrack, but he did not. It is therefore what it is: a soundtrack compilation with three tracks by Smith. --niiru 12:23, Oct 02, 2005 (EST)

Smith's full legal name

Steven Patrick Smith? I have not found that name anywhere else on the web and it seems like something Morrissey would be named (since Steven Patrick is his first name, and he was in The Smiths). Is this really Elliott Smith's real name?

Various news sources and obituaries claim it was Steven Paul Smith, which I've changed the article to reflect. --Delirium 22:15, Oct 22, 2003 (UTC)

Article needs different lead-off quote

The lead-off quote from DreamWorks in the first couple of paragraphs is nice, but not too convincing due to the fact that he was signed to the label. If we could get a quote from a more famous musician or critic (someone a little more neutral than a record label which benefeits off his success), that would be much better. Mikesherk 04:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Jealous Guy

I think in the beatles section it should be metioned he also did a cover of Lennon's 'Jealous Guy' at The Point in Portland on Feb 5th, 1998.

Video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKo5bVVPlyk&search=elliott%20smith%20jealous

I am planning to fix this article up to make it a featured article

So I will be removing anything without a source. I am also planing to remove a lot of the opinions put in by wikipedians.

Wicked. Please sign your comments. Shamrox 03:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I think if this FAC fails (and at this stage I think it will), we should do a peer review on the article. I'm pretty sure this thing could be FA with some more input. - Phorque 12:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm up for the peer review. Shamrox 22:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions for improvement

Perhaps we could move some stuff out of the bio into a section called something like "Musical style and influences" seeing as the Beatles stuff seems kinda out of place in the bio. I'm pretty sure it's also worth mentioning the influence of and comparisons to the Beach Boys, Nick Drake and Simon & Garfunkel etc.

I also think our samples could be more representative. I could rip a 30 second OGG from Figure 8 for the article, perhaps Son of Sam, Everything Reminds me of Her or Everything Means Nothing to Me, as those are the stand-outs as I see it. Could someone maybe do Angeles and Needle in the Hay? Some of the Roman Candle samples could perhaps leave in their place. (except for Roman Candle the song, it should definitely stay) - Phorque 14:21, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm totally up for using other samples. The night I made all those, I could only find my Roman Candle and Basement CDs. Have at it! Suggestions: "Say Yes", "Needle in the Hay", "Son of Sam", "Happiness", "Angeles", "Between the Bars", "The Biggest Lie". Obviously not all of those, but they seem to be among his most popular. Shamrox 21:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Anybody else got the CDs at hand? I don't and I'm dying for there to be more samples in the article! - Phorque 13:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm looking at this belatedly because of the FA review, which I missed. I think that what is most missing is: why should we care? There is not very much in the article that indicates why critics and fans alike had such enormous respect for his music. There is not even a mention of his frequent use of 3/4 time, very unusual for songwriters of his generation and genre. If there is critical commentary on what was appealing about his singing, or notable about his lyric-writing, it is sufficiently buried that I couldn't find it on a quick read. - Jmabel | Talk 16:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• I agree that this article needs more coverage of Smith's actual music. Right now it's very heavy on bio and the non-musical aspects of his life and career (not absolutely heavy, just heavy relative to the dearth of musical coverage). But I've found that, in general, it's hard to find info about the nitty-gritty of the music. I think it's because music critics too often are not musicians themselves. So we get a lot of bio. I could write a few pages about his style (and as Jmabel points out, his prolific, not to mention masterful, use of 3/4 time), but I'm not sure I can find any sources to back me up. Maybe I'll try some guitar sites.--Hraefen 17:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
• I'm going to have to interject here. Elliott Smith definitely didn't use 3/4 a lot. I literally just went through 20 songs of his, and the only ones I found that were 3/4 were Waltz #1 and #2 (because a Waltz is supposed to be in 3/4) and Between the Bars. The majority of his songs seem to be 4/4. Unless you can cite a bunch of 3/4 songs, I'm going to have disagree with you. --antisthenex 21:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
• Here you are then (minus the ones alredy mentioned of course). I'm sure there are more on Roman Candle, Elliott Smith, the b-sides and Smith's unreleased songs, but I'm not familiar enough with those to identify the 3/4 songs by title and/or lyrics (caveat lector: some people may classify some of these as 6/8 instead of 3/4... but hey, either way, it's not common time). Pitseleh,In the Lost and Found (Honky Bach),Stupidity Tries,Pretty Mary K,I Better Be Quiet Now,Don't Go Down,Miss Misery. If we were to find out the percentage of Smith's songs in 3/4, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a modern singer-songwriter with the same kind of numbers, especially one with the level of critical acclaim as Smith. This kind of analysis is possibly getting into the realm of original research however. Maybe not though.--Hraefen 15:51, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
• Unfortunately, I believe it is. Unless you can find an article to cite for the 3/4 statement (which I'm afraid I still disagree with), it is considered original research.--Antisthenex 18:27, 11 July 2006
• What exactly do you disagree with? Anyway.. I think we can find a way to mention his use of 3/4 while still making verifiable claims.--Hraefen ^Talk 23:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Moving of sections to other articles

I'm gonna move this section to the Jennifer Chiba article if nobody objects. The biography is big enough and the legal battle is more about her than Elliott IMO. I think it'd be a good way to "trim the fat" off this article. - Phorque (talk · contribs) 14:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm also putting "other releases" section into the Elliott Smith discography. - Phorque 18:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've been on a bit of a rampage and I think there's one last grievance to fix up before another Feature Article nomination. The notable tributes section is, indeed, notable but we need to trim it down and merge it into the biography. I'm gonna limit it to tributes and possibly mention the artists that have covered his songs since in another sentence.

I think I'll make a stab at putting it into "Reactions to Smith's death". - Phorque 18:41, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Notable tributes

I kind of merged the ones below this, but not in detail (is detail necessary?):

• Pete Yorn states on his "Live From New Jersey" album that his song "Bandstand In The Sky," while written for Jeff Buckley, has been previously performed in honor of Elliott Smith.
• Bright Eyes covered "The Biggest Lie" several days after Smith's death. The performance was released on their 2005 live album, Motion Sickness. Former Saddle Creek labelmates Rilo Kiley have also covered the song at several concerts.
• Bayside covered Baby Britain on the Bayside Acoustic EP.
• Bad Astronaut cover "Needle in the Hay" on their first album Acrophobe.
• Madeleine Peyroux recorded a cover of "Between the Bars" on her latest album Careless Love.

Copy edit

I know putting this here isn't necessary, but I made a variety of little changes and I couldn't explain them all in an edit summary. Here are explanations for everything whose reasons might be unclear.

"Having played in the rock band Heatmiser for several years, Smith's career as a solo artist began in 1994 with releases on the independent record labels Cavity Search and Kill Rock Stars." Besides the fact that the subject of the sentence is "Smith's career", which isn't the subject of "having played", using "having played" implies that the second part of the sentence was a consequence of the first, which it isn't. It's just something that happened later, so I changed it back to "after playing".

I changed all the quotation marks to be the more common straight style, and I moved the quotation marks inside the punctuation when appropriate. I changed the dashes and formatting of 1:36 p.m. to be in line with the Manual of Style. You can't say "amount" of something countable, so I changed "a substantial amount of songs" to "a substantial amount of music for the album".

I fixed a few ambiguous bits: "It deals with such themes as despair, dread, death, and God." was referring to Kierkegaard's book, not the album, right? Janet Weiss was Sam Coomes's wife, not Elliott's... (I guess this wasn't so unclear but it confused me the first time I read it.) I changed "Other songs from the Beatles members' solo careers include..." to "Other songs he played from..."

I uncensored "shit" per Wikipedia:Profanity (since that's how it is in the original quote). "He began recording a new album, this time with only himself and Jon Brion in the producer's chair..." produced a comical image (at least to me), so I reworded that. I unlinked "rumors" and "computer", as they don't contain relevant information and people don't need to be told what they mean. I removed "which was also the only thing kept in his freezer" because it was redundant.

Finally, I removed the "See also" section, as the links were all previously referenced in the article.

Sorry for the obsessiveness; it's just my personality. I like the article though. --Galaxiaad 21:00, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Great edits. Can't fault you on it. - Phorque 21:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

New memorial photo

Nice indeed. Not only is it free, I like it better than the previous one. But since it's got free licenses, shouldn't we take off the "fair use" comment? I could be wrong... copyright makes my head hurt. --Galaxiaad 14:41, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Why no messianic interpretation allowed?

Why no messianic interpretation allowed? Several people think the following should be on the page, though it doesn't technically follow the "Wikipedia standards"...

Many see Elliott Smith's musical releases as deliberatly esoteric "holy texts", in the style of both the Christian Bible and various Hindu scriptures, including the Vedas, Upanishads, and Mahabharata. Specifically, they see a patern of self-sacrafical, moralistic, and life-worshipping motifs in Smith's lyrics and public lifestyle. Lyrics such as "O.D. on Easter afternooon", public actions such as writing "Kali the Destroyer" on his arm in his last photoshoot, and coincidences relating to the timing of his suicide such as his death at the age of 34- possibly "alluding" to Jesus' death- lead many to believe Mr. Smith intended his life and work to be analyzed in a religious context. (Many hear a Christian-style phrophet in lyrics such as "You disappoint me/ you people raking in on the world/ The Devil's script sells.." "God knows why my country/ don't give a fuck. / Shine on me baby /'cos it's raining in my heart"- all from the first song released after his death, "A Distorted Reality is Now a Necessity to Be Free").

.

• Hello. This addition to the article unfortunately fails Wikipedia's policy on verifiability. Wikipedia cannot accept unpublished sources as reference. Even if this article were published and cited in the article, it sounds dubious and more like speculation than anything else. Direct quotes from Smith stating this explicitly, or someone close to him confirming it would be verifiable, but extrapolating from a bunch of supposed evidence in his music is not. The best you could hope to right would be "so-and-so has speculated in his/her article that Smith intended to be messianic..." and I'm not even sure it would be a necessary addition to the article.

  I'm sorry, but I have to remove the paragraph. Perhaps we could later link to the article or mention it as "further reading"? Please let us know when it is published. (online or elsewhere) - Phorque 08:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

• Because it doesn't comply with Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy. Your edits say many, but not who specifically. i.e. you're making unsubstantiated POV assumptions. So I suggest the following, wait until the book is published first (so you can quote a ISBN and comply with Wikipedia:Reliable Sources) and then cite that the author of that book has made such and such as argument. At the moment you're putting forward one person's point of view as a fact. PS: Please get yourself an account and sign your posts on talk pages. Editing from an anonymous IP address doesn't do much for your credibility. --  Netsnipe  ^(Talk)  08:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

What the crap? 70.95.216.219 06:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

"Today's Featured Article" blurb

I intend to request this article to be on the queue for the front page (nominations are here). So I'll make a draft here and you guys can hack away at it to make it better. - Phorque 19:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Elliott Smith (August 6, 1969 – October 21, 2003) was an American singer-songwriter and musician. Although born in the Midwest and primarily raised in Texas, Smith spent the majority of his life in Portland, Oregon. After playing in the rock band Heatmiser for several years, Smith began his career as a solo artist in 1994 with releases on the independent record labels Cavity Search and Kill Rock Stars. He eventually signed a major label contract with DreamWorks Records in 1997, for which he recorded two albums. Smith rose to mainstream prominence when his song "Miss Misery", written for the film Good Will Hunting, was nominated for an Oscar in the best original song category in 1998. The singer battled with depression, alcohol addiction and drug use for many years, and the topics would often appear in his lyrics. (More...)

Should "Elliott Smith" be mentioned first (given it's the name of the article and the one most people know)? WesleyDodds 00:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

It could be changed to "Elliott Smith (born Steven Paul Smith)" but I formatted it the way it is because of the guideline here. Phorque 05:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

For people who are best known by a pseudonym, the birth name should usually appear first in the article, followed closely by the pseudonym. Follow this practice even if the article itself is titled with the pseudonym...

I understand for the article, but it might work better to list "Elliott Smith" first for the "Today's Featured Article" box. WesleyDodds 06:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Elliott Smith in Modest Mouse documentary

An interview with Elliott Smith was in the Modest Mouse "Untitled" documentary seen here. This should be added. Trivia or videography? FerventDove 05:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll add that into the filmography, and I think I'll also move the section into the discography article. Thanks! :) - Phorque 10:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

POV

The statement "Although suspicions later arose about the validity of the center, its physicians and their practices, Smith's time there proved to do wonders for him, helping him permanently beat his addictions to heroin and crack." doesn't cite sources, violates POV, and states an assumption as fact. I'm removing this - hopefully someone can find sources and reword it back into the article.--▫Bad▫harlick♠ 22:29, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

That statement/sentiment comes almost verbatim from Elliott Smith and the Big Nothing. I'm not near a copy of it (and won't be for several months), so if someone could find the pages that mention his time at the rehab center, that'd be awesome. Shamrox 09:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

That sounds fine. When it does go back in though, it should either be a straight quote, or worded into something more neutral as a summary of what was said in the magazine. However feel free to re-add the information as a quote if you're sure that you've got it word for word as per WP:Ignore_all_rules - the citation can be added at a later date whenever you or someone else gets hold of a copy of the magazine. ▫Bad▫harlick♠ 17:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Drum loop(s) on XO

It's my understanding that the drum loop on the XO song Independence Day was the only drum loop Smith ever recorded, and yet the quote says of the album (highlight added):

"It contained a more full-sounding, baroque pop sound than any of his previous efforts, with songs featuring horn section, drum loops, Chamberlins and elaborate string arrangements..."

I didn't change it yet because I wasn't sure if there was another loop on the album elsewhere, but I seem to remember him mentioning it in an interview, because it was so unusual and unique in his work. --babbage 06:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

*goes off to have an attentive listen to XO* - Phorque 14:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Phorque... I started a question thread on the official fan site: http://www.sweetadeline.net/elliott.mv?view+116582613558048 Charlie, who runs the site, know an awful lot about Elliott's music, and both he and another responder say that the only other known drum machine recording Elliott did was in his high school band "Stranger than Fiction." So I think it's safe to say there aren't any on XO or elsewhere... please correct my change if I'm wrong, of course... cheers --babbage 08:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds right, I couldn't pick anything else out... in fact I probably wouldn't have recognized that Independence Day had a loop without it being pointed out to me. ^^; - Phorque 13:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Removal of Media section in External links

Regarding this recent edit, claiming "blatant copyright infringment" is a bit extreme:

• According to the policy notes at the Live Music Archive (click "Show policy notes"), Elliott and his family approved of the inclusion and sharing of bootlegs.
• Trash Treasury serves the same function as above, directly linking to the Live Music Archive with an alternate navigation system.
• The BlamoNet image gallery looks like most of the pictures were taken by fans, and any other promotional images may file under fair use.
• ElliottSmithBsides.com explicitly does not offer any material that can be purchased. Any valid complaints will lead to the files being removed. These are tracks that apparently the family wishes to release, but the record labels will not do it, so some have been leaked. The site has been referred to be Rolling Stone and other news sources.

I agree that the YouTube video and the fan films are less appropriate for inclusion. Pomte 04:38, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your points, I had also read that those songs were knowingly shared by the family. - Phorque 11:35, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I put all but two (YouTube and the commercial Rose Parade one) of them back. I doubt they'll remain there all that long, given the nature of Wikipedia's ever-changing winds, however. - Dudesleeper · Talk 12:35, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

DVD Release

I remember reading somewhere that there was supposed to be an official DVD release of a concert in Olympia, Wa from 1999 (I could be wrong about the location and date), but it was canceled and then later leaked onto the internet. Can anyone verify this and should it be added to the article Bman286 16:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It's all discussed in the "Discography" article. ;) - Phorque 17:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: WP:BLP concerns

Regarding this latest edit: I'm all for being neutral and removing any content potentially damaging to Jennifer Chiba, but it's a bit ridiculous to cite an NME review to support the fact that the death wounds were apparently self-inflicted. It is well-known and well-documented that suicide was a definite possibility (including the article itself, lower down), so a citation is unnecessary. However, feel free to cite a better source that isn't the opinion of one album reviewer.

I'm using an NME review to balance (main aim of my edits is balance) the Rolling Stone reference for the fact that the autopsy was inconclusive. It's tit for tat, with the emphasis on tat, I admit. But in fact, the reference is to "self-inflicted", showing that someone actually believes he committed suicide. Until not long ago, there was little in the article to show that anyone believed that. The truth is that the whole paragraph should be rewritten more accurately (we really don't know much about the autopsy; lets report the coroner), but at least one rock magazine's opinion is now balanced with another's.

On reading the sources, I can see why the article has got itself into such a tangle, because the sources contain some very bad journalism, including, I'm sorry to say, that in the Guardian. The Rolling Stone article is a particular culprit because in talking of an "inconclusive" autopsy it is muddling up autopsies with coroner's reports. In fact it is the coroner's report that is inconclusive: in that case the technical expression is that the coroner returned an open verdict. Despite the innuendo of the journalism, an open verdict doesn't necessarily mean that murder is suspected. Many probable suicides are recorded as open verdicts if there is no clear sign of intention from the deceased. The journalists have blurred this in their search for a story and no doubt feulled internet speculation thereafter. The Rolling Stone article may be derivative of the Guardian article or others like it; but somewhere along the editing line at the newspaper I believe someone trimmed the Guardian article to conflate the autopsy finding with the coroner's verdict, giving the impression that the autopsy report had reservations about Chiba refusing to speak to police. That notion aroused my suspicion about the accuracy of the source article(s), since such reservations are beyond the remit of an autopsy. The Wikipedia article then compounded these errors by extracting parts of the source and combining them into a single blockquote presented as if it was THE AUTOPSY REPORT. Not least among the problems of balance caused by that was the omission of the remark in the source, presumably the coroner's, that it is not in itself suspicious for someone to stab themselves in the chest. --User:Qp10qp 00:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

"Not entirely conclusive" implies that something was conclusive about the autopsy evidence. What was it? –Pomte 23:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

From these sources, we have very little idea what was in the autopsy report. qp10qp 00:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The Guardian article itself appears to be based on the autopsy report revealed at The Smoking Gun.[1] The Rolling Stone article (2003-12-31) was published before both The Guardian (2004-03-19) and The Smoking Gun (2004-01-08). A quotable verdict from that report appears to be "undetermined," but "open verdict" should reflect that just as well. Page 4 does talk about Chiba's "refusual to speak with detectives." Since she does reject this claim, they can either both be mentioned or both remain removed as he said... she said... facts like that do not provide much insight. –Pomte 01:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

We must be smart about sourcing here. The autopsy report is NOT reliable for the point that Chiba refused to talk to police, especially since the coroner's narrative clearly shows that she talked to police right from the off. Sheesh! The autopsy report is at best a hearsay source on that aspect. In fact, the medical examiner actually calls it a "reported...refusal to speak with detectives". She is speaking second-hand, and her evidence on that aspect is superseded by the coroner's, which records two examples of Chiba talking to the police and no mention of refusal or reluctance. Our responsibility is that the Wikipedia article may not use these reports, which are unpublished primary sources, but only the secondary reports of journalists. Which seem to me remarkably garbled. The best we can do is pick out the bits in the journalistic sources that deal with the facts, and ignore the rest. And we must remember that these are early documents; the fact that Chiba was not arrested or charged, nor a murder investigation begun, should dissuade us from repeating speculation or providing the reader with dots of innuendo which they may join up. qp10qp 02:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You're right, I missed the contradiction. From the LA Weekly cited in the article: "LAPD homicide detective Jay King... said the case remains open, but he would not say what, if any difference, the coroner’s ruling would have on the investigation." This supports your position that the verdict didn't amount to much, though of course it'd be original research to argue for this. I think the best we can do at the moment is "the coroner has not been able to make a determination."CNN, 2003-12-31 "…due to incomplete knowledge of the circumstances surrounding the death."(LA Weekly) which spells out inconclusive in a less suggestive manner. –Pomte 02:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I suppose so. I would use the first half of that, but not the second— my reason being that "incomplete knowledge of the circumstances surrounding the death" means not that Chiba may have murdered Smith but that the coroner doesn't have enough information to state for sure that Smith had a suicidal intention (the note, for example, gave incomplete information). It's between those two positions that the innuendo breeds. The coroner could not record a verdict of suicide if the evidence could not justify it; that's the way law works, is all. qp10qp 03:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Good job

hey, reading the article made me miss elliott again. still listen to him, but really had let that terrible october fade into the background of my head. i'm sure some of you are from sweetaddy--just wanted to say excellent job. Chantoke 02:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. It harkened me back to the day when I woke up and got on Pitchfork and read the news. Thanks to all the editors involved! Teke 07:03, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Template doesn't make sense

The Elliott smith template features a section; "Band: Heatmiser" - This doesnt make sense to me, Heatmiser is just one band he was associated with, the previous bands 'a murder of crows' and 'stranger than fiction' should be included, and also Quasi- which he both played in on their tours, and they on his. and/or perhaps members of his live bands should be added?

It's actually a separate template; it just looks like it's combined with the one above. And I think including his previous bands is heading a little too close to obscurity. Live musicians aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. - Dudesleeper · Talk 15:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Majority of life in Portland?

"Smith spent the majority of his life in Portland, Oregon."

Elliott lived in Portland from 1983-1987 and then again from 1992-2000; that equals a total of 12 years and Elliott was 34 years old when he died. I have no idea why this article claims he lived there for a majority of his life (less than 50% is not a majority). I am going to reword this sentence. —User:Christopher Mann McKay 18:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I'd never actually gone and researched that claim myself. I just assumed whoever added it had done their homework. Thanks for clearing that up. - Phorque 20:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Songs by other artists about Elliott

I read somewhere that Broken Drum by Beck off his Guero album is about Elliott but couldn't find any proof to back it up. Might be nice to add it to the list if someone else can.—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

I've tried to find a source on this several times to no avail. Sorry! - Phorque 14:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

There are Beck fans who have speculated about it, but as far as I know that's all it is, speculation. I haven't ever seen a quote about it from Beck, which is, absent anything incontrovertible in the song's lyrics, what I think we would need. Candy 04:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Samples deleted

Hey guys, two of the samples on this article ("Condor Ave" and "Miss Misery") have been deleted, I'm guessing because they didn't comply with fair use standards (too long and at too high a bitrate). If anyone has physical copies of those songs, please try to re-rip them to q0 ogg files and at 10% of the song's length. I didn't upload those so the deletion nominations and subsequent deletions slipped right by me. - Phorque 14:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Mildly amusing...

I was just trying to remember some famous dead bassists and I stumbled across this Blender article that named Elliott Smith number 40 in their 50 Most Awesomely Dead Rock Stars. I'm not entirely sure what they mean by "awesomely dead". - Phorque 15:43, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Hated Ray Charles?

I read recenly in an interchat room that Elliott Smith, in an interview, called Ray Charles a 'blind, ignorant n****r (<- N Word) Anyone know if this is true, and if so, should we put it in the article?--71.35.187.128 01:07, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

No. ~~ Gromreaper^(Talk)/_(Cont) 05:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

year of Oscar Nomination

The Oscar nomination page for Best Original Song lists Miss Misery as being nominated for 1997 while the Elliott Smith entry states it was nominated in 1998. This should be rectified.

Done. - Dudesleeper · Talk 03:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Jen Chiba article?

Does anyone know what happened to the Jennifer Chiba article? It seems to have been deleted from Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.177.0.46 (talk) 05:15, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

Ben Folds' "Late"

In the 'Final Years' section of the article it says "Late" is a reference to Smith's improving condition. If I'm just reading this wrong, then it's really not very clear, but the song is definitely about his suicide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gegorg (talk • contribs) 23:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

• Yeah, definitely. The album "Songs for Silverman" which Late was released on was put out in 2005, making it around two years after his death. TheLetterM 23:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

«He eventually signed a major label contract with DreamWorks Records in 1997»

isn't DreamWorks Records an independent record label? Gothic Embrace 20:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Hardly. Dreamworks is the musical subsidiary of DreamWorks SKG, one of the major American film studios. Well, at least it was until it closed down in 2005 and its artists went to Interscope. TheLetterM 21:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

yes, I know. but I've had some debates over this. 'tis a major label in the sense that it's a large corporation with a lot of money, but it is not a major label in the sense that 'is not owned by Warner Music Group, EMI, Sony BMG, or Universal Music Group. and to quote the wikipedia article on record labels, are «record companies and music publishers [...] not under the control of the big four [...] independent (indie), even if they are large corporations with complex structures» - thus DreamWorks is indie, if you get what I'm saying. Gothic Embrace 21:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, well if you would use the definition of "not distributed by the big four", then yes, DreamWorks is an indie label. The reason why I never thought of them as being an "indie" label was because they pandered to tastes that were rooted in the mainstream and as you mentioned, had a lot of money and a corporate business structure- a far way's away from labels like Sub Pop, Matador, Dischord or Kill Rock Stars (which Elliott left for DreamWorks). The only other "major indie" label I've seen like this that had a big hand in mainstream music was Wind-Up Records.

In any case, DreamWorks records is in the wikipedia category for "Indie Music Labels", so I wouldn't object to taking out the "major" in that sentence, but you probably should add a comment after it saying that DreamWorks technically is an indie. TheLetterM 12:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Hated The Eagles?

I don't know if it's encyclopedic, but can anyone verify this? There's a bit of speculation that he all but disowned the song "I Figured You Out" because it sounded too much like The Eagles. There's at least one bootleg where he says it "sounds like the fucking Eagles". This would fit nicely in a trivia section or maybe under musical influences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.234.50.112 (talk) 22:22, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

If someone can find it in an interview or other source, I'm sure it can be worked in. Otherwise it's not really important. - Phorque 18:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

He hated Richard Marx too, but that's even more non-notable. - Dudesleeper · Talk 04:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

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