Talk:Elizabeth Seymour, Lady Cromwell

Marchioness of Winchester?

Several dates that I have been looking at conclude that Elizabeth was never titled Marchioness of Winchester because she died before her husband became Marquess of Winchester. She died c. 1563 and he became Marquess upon the death of his father in 1572. Even his own page on here confirms this. From what I gather she would have been known as Lady St. John before she died as that was his courtesy title. So the title should be changed. Here are a few suggestions:

• Elizabeth Seymour
• Elizabeth Seymour, Lady St. John
• Elizabeth Paulet, Lady St. John
  

-- Lady Meg (talk) 04:30, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 17:02, 29 October 2012 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

Elizabeth Seymour, Marchioness of Winchester → Elizabeth Seymour, Lady Cromwell – See above; also she is best known as Lady Cromwell, wife of Gregory, Lord Cromwell by whom she had issue. Lady Meg (talk) 23:14, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

New info to support the move -- According to the Complete Peerage, the inscription on the wall at her vault at Basing read, "Hic jacet Dna Cromwell, quondam conjux Johis, Marchionis Winton." Meaning she was still referred to as "Dame Cromwell" [Lady]. -- Lady Meg (talk) 02:41, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Elizabeth Seymour's Year of Birth and the Holbein Portrait

Elizabeth Seymour's date of birth is more likely to have been c.1518. It would make sense since it can be established that Gregory Cromwell was born circa 1520 and it would be strange to have a wife born around 1513.

If the portrait by Holbein shown in this article is of Elizabeth, painted when she was in her 21st year as indicated on the portrait, then her birth year would have been around 1518 and she could have been in her 21st year in early 1540 (before 25 March). The clothing of the sitter follows a style set by Anne of Cleves. The portrait would have been commissioned by Thomas Cromwell between January 1540 and early June 1540 when Anne of Cleves was at Court and before his arrest.

The timing fits. Elizabeth would have been aged thirteen at her marriage to Sir Anthony Ughtred in 1530/31. Elizabeth first appears in the records as wife to Sir Anthony Ughtred in January 1531 when the couple received a royal grant. (Letters & Papers, vol. 5, 80-14, January 1531). It's also plausible that she had one child at fifteen and another at sixteen.--Madame Bonheur (talk) 04:05, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Dates

Noticed someone put in a source for her birth and death that is original research. The source has NO source to show her birth was by 1518. As for her death, this source is listed again as saying “Elizabeth died 19 March and was buried 5 April, 1568 in St Mary’s Church, Basing in Hampshire.vi” the source listed is the Royal Collection, ‘Portrait of a Lady, perhaps Katherine Howard’, RCIN 422293; another version of the miniature, ‘Katherine Howard’, is in the collection of the Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry. The drawing is in the Royal Collection, ‘An unidentified woman’, RCIN 912218. However, if you go to the Royal Collection Website for that portrait there is no mention of a death date for Elizabeth Seymour. She’s not even mentioned. Another source for her death is the College of Arms “[S. and R. Bentley, London, 1829]. Catalogue of the Arundel Manuscripts in the Library of the College of Arms”. That states 19 March 1586. Is this considered a legit source? Found a similar article by the same author who did the original research above. In her sources for this similar article, she states: “The Complete Peerage (1959), vol. xii, pt. ii, pp. 764 where her date of death is [incorrectly] given as 1563. In fact, she was still living in 1564. See Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public Record Office: Elizabeth [I]. vol. 3, p. 141. For her death and burial in 1568 see College of Arms (1829) [S. and R. Bentley, London, 1829], Catalogue of the Arundel Manuscripts in the Library of the College of Arms. p. 63; See also Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public Record Office: Elizabeth [I]. vol. 4, p. 184.” Is there a reason why we’re not using THOSE sources instead of quoting an article of original research? I had been using the genealogist, Douglas Richardson, as a source, but he says “probably died before 9 June 1563”. What to do? Lady Meg (talk) 05:32, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Douglas Richardson is an excellent genealogist, but in this case the sources contain many errors ...

One error is set in stone: Sir John Seymour's memorial in Great Bedwyn church has Elizabeth Seymour married to Sir Henry Ughtred (1477–1510), who died before she was born.

For Elizabeth Seymour's dates, see:

MacCulloch, Diarmaid (2018). Thomas Cromwell: A Life, p. 425: "Elizabeth Seymour was at the time of her second marriage a year or two older than her husand." Plate 27: "There can be little doubt that this Holbein masterpiece, the original in Toledo, depicts Elizabeth Seymour (c.1518–1568 ..."

17th-century copy of the Toledo portrait at the National Portrait Gallery, London.

"Unknown woman, formerly known as Catherine Howard, late 17th century". National Portrait Gallery. London. Retrieved 10 May 2023. "This portrait was previously identified as Catherine Howard, fifth wife of Henry VIII. The sitter is now thought to be a member of the Cromwell family, perhaps Elizabeth Seymour (c.1518–1568), sister of Henry VIII's third wife, Jane Seymour, and wife of Thomas Cromwell's son Gregory."

See also:

Carthew, G.A. (1878). The Hundred of Launditch and Deanery of Brisley; in the County of Norfolk; Evidences and Topographical Notes from public records, Heralds' Visitations, Wills, Court Rolls, Old Charters, Parish Registers, Town books, and Other Private Sources; Digested and Arranged as Materials for Parochial, Manorial, and Family History. Vol. II. p. 522 "Pedigree of the Crumwell Family" (with some errors)

College of Arms (1829) [S. and R. Bentley, London, 1829]. Catalogue of the Arundel Manuscripts in the Library of the College of Arms, p. 63. Ammelida (talk) 06:24, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Children by Sir Anthony Ughtred

So, checking sources for the children. Henry is not 100% confirmed as the child of Sir Anthony and Elizabeth Seymour. The source used on his page to link him to them does not list a Henry as a child. It doesn’t mention a sister, Margery, either. History of Parliament says “presumably s. of Sir Anthony Ughtred (d.1534) by Elizabeth (d. c.1562), da. of Sir John Seymour† of Wolf Hall, Wilts., sis. of Edward Seymour, Duke of Somerset.” In the article it states: “Ughtred pedigrees are confused and contradictory, but assuming that the parentage given above is correct, this Member was related to the Seymours, to Gregory Cromwell†, 1st Baron Cromwell (his mother’s second husband) and to the Paulets.” As for Margery, I get that Elizabeth’s mother was named Margery, but are we just assuming she is the daughter of Elizabeth Seymour? Ughtred had previously been married. The source states she’s the daughter of a “Antony Utryght of Kexby”. Ok, which one? No dates. No mention of a mother. Could she be the daughter of his first wife? So I guess I’m wondering why these two are attached to Anthony and Elizabeth. Do we have sources that can confirm these two as children of Anthony Ughtred and Elizabeth Seymour? Lady Meg (talk) 07:39, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Henry Ughtred and Margery Ughtred are the children of Sir Anthony Ughtred and his second wife, Elizabeth Seymour. Some sources ...

Henry Ughtred:

ODNB states that Henry Ughtred is the son of Sir Anthony Ughtred and Elizabeth Seymour. See Thornton, Tim (2012). The Channel Islands, 1370–1640: Between England and Normandy, p. 71, fn 95;

Carthew, G.A. (1878). The Hundred of Launditch and Deanery of Brisley; in the County of Norfolk; Evidences and Topographical Notes from public records, Heralds' Visitations, Wills, Court Rolls, Old Charters, Parish Registers, Town books, and Other Private Sources; Digested and Arranged as Materials for Parochial, Manorial, and Family History. Vol. II. p. 524 (second paragraph): "My brother Henry Ughtred" ("Extract of Will of Henry Lord Cromwell");

MacCarthy-Morrogh, Michael (2016) [July 1983]. The Munster Plantation, 1583-1641, p. 62, fn 3"Henry Oughtred of Southampton step-father to Sir William Courtenay and uncle to Robert Strode, all Limerick undertakers. Oughtred's mother Elizabeth Seymour, sister to Queen Jane; after Sir Anthony Oughtred's death married second marquis of Winchester. Further link with family by Henry Oughtred's marriage to Elizabeth Paulet, daughter of marquis";

Daughter:

Loades, David (2013). Jane Seymour: Henry Viii's Favourite wife, p. 96.

Henry and Margery Ughtred:

MacCulloch, Diarmaid (2018). Thomas Cromwell: A Life, p. 422: "Probably in 1530 she became the second wife of a rather older Yorkshire gentleman, Sir Anthony Ughtred ... In 1533 or early 1534 they had a son, Henry, and then came a girl, Margery, not yet born when Ughtred died in 1534." Ammelida (talk) 03:32, 10 May 2023 (UTC)