Talk:Elfen Lied/Archive Naming

'Nyuu' or 'Nyu'?

Ok, I changed "Nyuu" to "Nyu", and added more context as discussed here, I hope it's a good, objective, compromise. --Louis

I just edited the above for format. Louis, you can (should) sign your posts using four tildes (~~~~). You write those in the edit window, and they are turned into your username and date-time. The indenting is done using colons (:), one per indent level. See the editing help for details.

I believe the Japanese transcription was にゅう, usually romanized nyuu or nyū (with a long u sound), but it may be simply pedantic to reproduce such nuances given that we're talking about a random, nonsense word. I say let's keep "Nyu" throughout the article, unless someone objects... --Pablo D. Flores 20:17, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Most fansubbers subbed it as "nyuu" so I'd say we should have "nyū" to emphasize the long u. not just "nyu". Phorque 11:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Phorque. There is an actual pronunciation difference between "Nyu" and "Nyū." I suppose the biggest problem with this, however, is having to specify the diacritic. "uu" is a way to specify the long-u sound in regular ASCII text, though "ū" is preferred when diacritics are available such as in Unicode. --Kuronekoyama 18:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Justification of my edits

From sub-page List of Elfen Lied characters

==Justification of my edits== I've been bold and done a major edit on this article: Kouta is indeed Kouta and not Kōta, the characters of his name do not contain a long "ō" which is indicated by "ー". Kouta's name is actually broken up like this: コ(ko)ウ(u)タ(ta). I changed the seiyu, voice actor format. We've had this discussion before at the wikiproject. If anyone needs me to repeat myself as to why I format the way I do, just ask. I made misc edits to the prose. Those should be pretty obvious. Phorque 16:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Kouta / Kohta / Kōta

What is Kouta's name supposed to be in the entry? "Kouta" is seen often, but Wikipedia uses the Hepburn style of romanization, or "Kōta". But ADV, the official licencee of Elfenlied uses "Kohta". I'm leaning torward replacing Kouta and Kohta with Kōta, unless other people have a good reason not to. --Wirbelwind 23:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Though I tend to go with "Kouta" myself, I think I read it somewhere that Wikipedia prefers to use the official English translation if one is available. Could someone please confirm this? ChibiKareshi 13:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Yea, it is, in the Manual of Style.

Names should be romanized according to common usage (see below), which includes unconventional romanizations by licensees (e.g., Devil Hunter Yohko and Tenjho Tenge).

--Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 23:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Kouta vs Kōta

(my adapted statement/question from another user's talk page)

The characters of his name do not contain a "ー" (aka "vowel extender mark") which, to me, would be the indicator of a long "ō". Kouta's name is broken up like this: コ(ko)ウ(u)タ(ta). Wouldn't only コーウタ be Kōta?

The fact that the official romanisation is "Kohta" seems to strengthen this. Would this not indicate a rare case in which the name contains "ou" rather than "ō"? Please somebody agree with me, or correct my feeble attempt at understanding katakana. - Phorque 09:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

You're right on all but one count. Your only error: コーウタ would be literally Kōuta, コータ would be Kōta. ^^; I think people call him Kōta because of the literal romanization of the ō being "ou" in Hepburn romanization, even though it's incorrect in this case because there is a distinction between the "o" and the "u", but when people read "ou" they think 'long o'.

Aside from all this, Wikipedia should use the official English translation or romanization for names, so all instances should be Kohta if that's what the official is. I'm assuming that when you say 'official', you mean that that's the name that appears on English DVD cases and in the subtitles for the series on those official DVDs? If so, then the name should be changed to Kohta in the article. Nique1287 00:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

"Kohta" looks so silly to me, but that is what is on the official english website. I suppose it would make sense to use that. I'm still not certain what the author meant by breaking it up in the katakana... or whether it is equivalent to コータ as well as the kanji reading. Blah. - Phorque 16:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Crossposting from user talk:

Actually, the alternate Romanization as Kohta is the clincher that it is indeed a long O sound. (Oh is the same sound as Ou and Ō) If it were not a long O, but rather a vocalized u, then it wouldn't be written that way. There are apparently a very few cases where an ou is not one syllable, I know of exactly 1. (Yoruichi Shihouin)

For an absolute proof, look at the Characters of Elfen Lied page, where it gives his Kanji name. The first character is 耕. Looking at wikt:耕, it's pronounced Kō.

And Wiki policy is to use Hepburn Romanization. Actually, Wiki policy sucks in this regard and self-contradicts, but if we're using Nyū we should use Kōta. --tjstrf talk 05:20, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

One final bit of confirmation: wikt:太, the second character of his name, is read Ta (and some other alternate readings inapplicable here), not Uta. So it's definitely Kō-ta, not Ko-u-ta. --tjstrf talk 07:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

If all this is so, then why is his name listed with the literal kana for Kouta on this page? Nique1287 13:02, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Because o-u or o-o kana are how you write Ō. (There are many different ways of depicting the sound in English.) Look at Ko (kana). コウ is romanized as Kō, Ko, Koo, Kou, Kô and Koh in various systems, but it's all the same sound and Kō is the proper Hepburn romanization, which is what Wikipedia uses. --tjstrf talk 23:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

But that doesn't explain why it's written as Ko-u-ta (コウタ) with a distinct U on this page, which is what I was asking. Sorry for being unclear. Nique1287 23:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

That's like asking why Lye is written with ye rather than ie for its vowel sound: it doesn't matter as it would make no difference. コウタ (Ko-u-ta), コオタ (Ko-o-ta), and コータ (Ko-ta) are all identical sounds and Romanized the same way. (Kōta in Hepburn.) --tjstrf talk 00:05, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

(Random unindent) Actually, since every symbol is pronounced, it makes a GREAT difference (Ko-o-ta versus Ko-u-ta). Just because they're romanized the same way, doesn't mean they're pronounced the same way. Oh, and コウタ there, is not romanized Kōta, by any means, because the "o" is not elongated in sound. Nique1287 00:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Look at the page I cited above, Ko (kana). They are all Romanized Kō. Also look at the kanji. The argument over whether to use Kohta is another one entirely, but there is no argument whether Kōta is the proper Hepburn for his name. --tjstrf talk 00:52, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Relevant table:

Form	Rōmaji	Hiragana	Katakana
Normal k- (か行 ka-gyō)	ko	こ	コ
	kou koo kō, koh	こう, こぅ こお, こぉ こー	コウ, コゥ コオ, コォ コー

Revised Hepburn Romanization uses ō for long vowels oo and ou. As you can clearly see, Kō is the Romanized form of コウ. --tjstrf talk 00:57, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I see nothing on that page, or that table, that says that コウ becomes kō. All I see with regards to Kou (being the separate "o" and "u" sounds) is that it is listed separately from kō in the table (note that the kana for Kou are on one line with Kou, the kana for Koo are on one line with Koo, and the kana for Kō are on one line with Kō). They're in the same square, but I'm rather sure that doesn't just mean they all can be written as kō. The kanji in his name become Ko-u-ta, with three distinct sounds. Kōta cannot be correct in this case, according to Revised Hepburn, because again, the "o" sound is not extended, the second vowel is clearly an "u" sound, and macrons are only used when the first vowel is extended. Nique1287 01:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

O-u is, with rare exceptions, the long vowel O. For additional evidence on top of the kanji pronunciations, katakana conversions, hiragana conversions, etc. that I have already provided, see wikt:王 (The Japanese word Ō, kana spelling O-u), wikt:こう (the kana Ko-u, romanized Kō) and wikt:おう (the kana O-u, Romanized Ō). --tjstrf talk 01:33, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

And some more, from wikt:tō: wikt:とお (too), wikt:とう (tou). Both Romanized tō. --tjstrf talk 01:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

In fact, let's just list all of the hiragana combinations that end Ō:

wikt:ō: wikt:おう (O-u)/wikt:おお (O-o)

wikt:hō: wikt:ほう (Ho-u)/wikt:ほお (Ho-o)

wikt:kō: wikt:こう (Ko-u)/wikt:こお (Ko-o)

wikt:mō: wikt:もう (Mo-u)/wikt:もお (Mo-o)

wikt:nō: wikt:のう (No-u)/wikt:のお (No-o)

wikt:rō: wikt:ろう (Ro-u)/wikt:ろお (Ro-o)

wikt:sō: wikt:そう (So-u)/wikt:そお (So-o)

wikt:tō: wikt:とお (To-o)/wikt:とう (To-u)

wikt:yō: wikt:よう (Yo-u)/wikt:よお (Yo-o)

Note: Wiktionary doesn't have articles for all of the Romanized forms.

While they may not be interchangeable spellings in Japanese, o-u, o-o, and o- are all romanized ō in revised Hepburn. --tjstrf talk 02:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

One must ask whether this really matters, though. I was under the impression that Wikipedia uses the official translation (i.e. the one used by the dub) if one is available. ADV settled for "Kohta", I believe. Shouldn't that be what Wikipedia uses, regardless of whether it is right or not? ChibiKareshi 08:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

You are correct, and in one of my crazy editing sprees on this article that is exactly what I did. I saw somebody try to revert it back to "Kouta". I'd recommend we just leave it at "Kohta"... - Phorque 12:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

K[ō/ou/oh]ta again

Firstly, congratulations on the GA pass. Manga series are far underrepresented in the FA/GA listings when compared to their video game compatriots, nice to see another one pass muster.

But, we still have this irritating standardization issue to deal with. Right now the main page uses Kohta throughout, which while not my preference is in accordance with at least one of the 4 policies on the issue so doesn't bother me. But List of characters in Elfen Lied is still at Kouta. Could we please pick one thing and stick with it? --tjstrf talk 08:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe the official romanization is Kohta, as much as I dislike it as well. I went ahead and changed them to Kohta. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 08:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

So then what about Ny[ū/u/uu]? Shall we use the official romanization for her name? (Even though Wikipedia leans heavily towards macronization rather than doubling up on the u in most of the articles I have read.) What is the official romanization of her name anyway? --tjstrf talk 19:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)