Jump to content

Talk:Eleanor of Castile

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Untitled

[edit]

Im confused by two daughters born May 1271 (7th and 8th children) - were they twins? Do the two entries refer to one child?

They were twins. One died, the other (Joan of Acre) survived.

The dates originally reported in this article were erroneous. The daughter born in 1271 died in infancy. Joan of Acre was born sometime in 1272, not 1271. Some authorities claim Eleanor of Castile did have twin daughters, but there is no proof that she did. Regards, John Carmi Parsons.

Hi. I'm little confuse abaout the children of Edward I and Eleonor of Castile: Anybody know how exactly was the number?. In some source appears three other daughter: Alice (1279-91), Blanche (b. and d. 1289) and Beatrice (b. and d. 1290). I really appreciate if anybody write to me and explain these. Thanks Aldebaran69 01:39, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Castile, Spain "

[edit]

To say that Eleanor was "born in Castile, Spain" is very much like saying George Washington was born in Virginia, USA.--Wetman (talk) 21:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Eleanor could not be born in Spain because the Kingdom of Spain did not exist at 1241. It would be correct that Eleanor was "born in Castile".--Xavigivax (talk) 16:47, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Picture

[edit]

What is the provenance of the picture of Eleanor? It's very unlikely that it is anywhere near contemporary; are there actually any 13th century depictions or descriptions of her? TheOneOnTheLeft (talk) 13:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well the picture now on here is out of focus and looks horrible. Anyone have a better one? -- Lady Meg (talk) 04:04, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, and have uploaded a better one which I found on Commons.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:19, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Location of Harby

[edit]

Why does the page currently state that Harby is 'less than 22 miles from Lincoln'? It is considerably less than 10 miles from Lincoln.82.7.138.114 (talk) 01:00, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Date of birth

[edit]

The article goes to great lengths to establish the date of her birth as late 1241, yet the side box, introduction and birth year index were all edited to show it as 1244 in October 2014. I have therefore corrected these dates to 1241, which means they are in line with the article's own evidence. Presumably, anyone wishing to revert this change will provide evidence that the birth was in 1244 rather than the commonly accepted 1241.

Her date of birth is sometimes given as 1244, following Agnes Strickland, in her "Lives of the Queens of England" (volume 2, 1841), who states, without showing evidence, that Eleanor was "about ten" at the time of her marriage. The number of candles used in the 1291 commemorative procession, described in the birth section, shows this can't be true. The date of birth of her first, stillborn, child in May 1255 is further evidence. She is highly unlikely to have become pregnant at the age of nine or ten, though twelve or thirteen is perfectly likely. Cliff (talk) 11:52, 13 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image...

[edit]

Eleanor, the photograph of the statue appears to have been uploaded in breach of copyright, and a deletion notice has been tagged to the file on the Commons. Images used on the wiki need to be correctly tagged with their copyright status, and this one isn't. Hchc2009 (talk) 11:37, 31 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Eleanor of Castile. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 11:19, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Historical Legacy

[edit]

I have expanded the historical legacy section to reflect Eleanor's changing reputation since 1290; particularly to reflect the her status (surprising, post-Strickland) as a grand guignol villain in Elizabethan theatre (George Peele's Edward I) and balladry.

Sources are:

  • Holinshed, Raphael, Chronicles of England, Scotland and Ireland;
  • Griffin, Eric, English Renaissance Drama and the Specter of Spain: Ethnopoetics and Empire
  • Cockerill, Sara, Eleanor of Castile: The Shadow Queen
  • Fuchs, Barbara; Weissbourd, Emily: Representing Imperial Rivalry in the Early Modern Mediterranean — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.64.126.162 (talk) 03:29, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Antisemitism

[edit]

So she took the land of one rich guy who happened to be a Jew. She was unpopular for taking land from multiple rich guys who were not Jews. Yet the first somehow justifies a blanket accusation of antisemitism? How do we know she seized the land of that guy because he was a Jew, and not because he was rich?

It appears, from the document cited (page 68) to be a loose interpretation at best -

...was imprisoned in the Tower of London under writ of the Great Seal. Later on he was in arrears with tallage-payments, his son was arrested as a hostage, and the king confiscated a number of his bonds. He died at the close of 1279, what was left of his estate having been bestowed by the king on Queen Eleanor

and from Oxford Jewish Heritage website, which says it used the same source we have:

Many of the Jews left England because they were unable to continue their business and it was around this time (in 1264) that Jacob of Oxford sold two buildings to Walter de Merton for the establishment of Merton College. (The original documents detailing this transaction still exist in Merton's Muniment Tower). Queen Eleanor of Castile, Edward I's wife, claimed the entire estate of Jacob of Oxford, the most important Jewish financier of the mid-13th century.

217.41.77.102 (talk) 13:51, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

[edit]

This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. Help me please --👀Gremista.32 (talk) 22:51, 24 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Written by a fan or two

[edit]

Not only does it lack citations, but it reads like it was written by people who are fans of Eleanor. I'm not sure how best to address this tbh. If I get time I will add some cited information on the bits I know about relating to her abuse of Jewish loans etc. Jim Killock (talk) 12:39, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sara Cockerill biography

[edit]

I have this to see what it says, I really cannot take it seriously. Although it isn't all wrong, there's plenty in there that is true, her assessment of Eleanor seems way off the mark. She is not a trained historian (nor is Lisa Hilton but she is more level headed). A lot of the material on this page seems to have come from Sara Cockerill, on whom all I can say is, Prince Andrew better hope she's picked if he ever gets taken to court. I am inclined to ignore the book's views and remove any material that comes solely from her, excepting perhaps something at the end regarding opinions. Let me know if this seems wrong. Jim Killock (talk) 00:16, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My views on this has softened; Cockerill is not good on Eleanor as a businesswoman; she overestimates her in many ways and does not wish to discuss the appalling arrangements that stood behind her land acquisitions, but she isn't so bad elsewhere. So I've used her book but more sparingly than Parsons. Jim Killock (talk) 00:08, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Missing references

[edit]

The page is down to about six missing references for statement that are mostly hard to cut or lose without losing something (eg, the forms of her name; that she was buried at a different location to her current tomb). If anyone can help with any of these I would be very grateful. Jim Killock (talk) 12:13, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These are the bits I can't find sources for, thankfuly just four that seem to matter:
Her Castilian name, Leonor, became Alienor or Alianor in England, and Eleanor in modern English.[citation needed]
Her body was placed in a grave near the high altar that had originally contained the coffin of Edward the Confessor and, more recently, that of King Henry III until his remains were removed to his new tomb in 1290. Eleanor's body remained in this grave until the completion of her own tomb.[citation needed]
When Edward remarried a decade after her death, he and his second wife Margaret of France, named their only daughter Eleanor in honour of her.[citation needed]
The estates Eleanor assembled became the nucleus for dower assignments made to later queens of England into the 15th century, and her involvement in this process established a queen-consort's freedom to engage in such transactions.[citation needed]
Jim Killock (talk) 17:10, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Todos, list of fixes

[edit]

These from reading are missing and should be added:

  • Tidy up land acquisitions section Done
    • Acknowledge planned role in development, selection of lands Done
    • Explain "Eleanor as businesswoman" vs privileged access Done privileged access; need to find quote about her businesswoman aspect, or possibly ignore as not from good sources.
    • Explain access to Jewish loans as patronage system Done
    • When and how this peaked, declined Done
    • Describe all sources of land grants
    • Why this may have made her look grasping (land as income not status)
    • Role of managers
    • Describe relations with tenants
    • Add information on crisis of the knights (is there an article?) Done enough
  • Other sources of income
    • Explain Queen's Gold etc Done
  • Relations with king
    • Source of advice?
  • Personal interests Done
    • Food and diet Done
    • Supplies from Acra Done
  • Crusades
    • Memorialisation of crusades

Jim Killock (talk) 00:05, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hi there, these changes don’t look like an improvement to me;

  • some of the links eg to Simon de Montfort, are changed to redirect links rather than as previously, the actual page destinations, other changes eg to Debasement#Methods are corrections; and
  • the removal of spaces around the dashes I don’t understand. These had been edited by someone at GoCE to be compliant with WP:MOS so I’m not sure why this has been changed.

Please note I've put the page in for a Good Article nomination so want to keep the page edit quality as high as possible meantime. I imagine the links question would be brought up for example. Jim Killock (talk) 23:16, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted the edits and kept the changes which were clear improvements (ie, better links) as best I can. Jim Killock (talk) 09:53, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

[edit]
Passed. Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:28, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Eleanor of Castile/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: JimKillock (talk · contribs) 15:18, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Jens Lallensack (talk · contribs) 22:09, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]


I will review soon! --Jens Lallensack (talk) 22:09, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • 1241 – 28 – the en dash (–) is written without spaces, e.g. 5–8.
  • Castilian - link?
  • In the lead, you have "Edward built a stone cross". I would add "known as Eleanor crosses" here, and where that term is mentioned later in the lead, unlink that second mention. Otherwise it does not become clear that the second mention of the crosses refers to the same thing.
  • her elder brother Ferdinand was born in 1239/40, her younger brother Louis in 1242/43, and two sons who were born after Louis's death in childhood. – Should "sons" be "brothers", as they were not her sons?
  • Should the section "Birth" be "Birth and childhood", since it's not just about birth?
  • Ferdinand III's heir Alfonso X of Castile – Eleanor's half-brother – It was already mentioned that he is her half-brother, but I think that repeating this helps the reader to keep track of the names, so I suggest keeping it!
  • titular duke – link or explain?
  • other women members – "female members"?
  • this custom was so important Edward – "to" missing?
  • Edward was greatly affected by Eleanor's death, – Not sure if this paragraph should be under "Death"? Otherwise readers may not find that information when they do not read the entire article.
  • initiated this process; He – he, in lower case.
  • to mediate disputes of a between nobles – stray words here
  • , he would speak with the queen and that the business would end happily for the bishop – grammar off here?
  • scriptorium, illuminator – link both?
  • caption: The Alphonso Psalter, believed to have been commissioned by Eleanor – What is a psalter, can it be linked?
  • After Eleanor succeeded her mother as Countess of Ponthieu in 1279, – This seems to be mentioned only en passant in the "cultural and other interests" section. Anything else to say about this role as Countess of Ponthieu?
  • accounts reveal he corresponding – "her"?
  • is also evidence Eleanor she exchanged – grammar
  • Eleanor is assumed to have spoken French, – only French, or English, too?
  • including the use of water features – a common feature – Repeats "feature" two times. What exactly do you mean with "water feature"? As a descriptive term it is very general, can you specify?
  • Gloriette – link? No idea what it is.
  • The nature of the medicines is not specified so the nature of Eleanor's illness cannot be deduced until in late 1287, while she was in Gascony – Grammar does not match, "when" instead of "while" maybe, along with corresponding grammar changes?
  • From the time of the return from Gascony, – I can't remember this mentiomed earlier? Did she reside in Gascony while she was queen?
  • Puritans – link?
  • loans. according to – Upper case at start of sentence.
  • Eleanor's reputation began to become more positive following the 1643 publication of Sir Richard Baker's A History of the Kings of England, which retold the myth of Eleanor saving her husband at Acre. Thereafter, Eleanor's reputation was largely positive – When her reputation was largely positive after 1643, why were the crosses destroyed between 1643 and 1646?
  • The "clarification tag" has to be resolved.
  • The "See also" section with the single entry "infante" seems questionable to me; not sure why that particular article is important.
  • All sources are of high quality, and come with precise page numbers.
  • Image review:
    • Image caption: Edward I & II Prince of Wales, portrayed in 1301, some eleven years after Eleanor's death – Why is the prince of Whales relevant? He is not even mentioned in the article.
    • Image caption: Eleanor – can this caption be expanded to state that it is a statue and where it is located, on what building?
    • The images "Eleanor of Castile sucks the poison" and "Eleanor's tomb effigy" sandwich left and right, just place one a bit further up and the other a bit further down to avoid that.
    • Image caption: Eleanor's tomb effigy in Westminster Abbey – What is that image? A drawing? Could be stated in the caption.
These need doing still:
  • *After Eleanor succeeded her mother as Countess of Ponthieu in 1279, – This seems to be mentioned only en passant in the "cultural and other interests" section. Anything else to say about this role as Countess of Ponthieu? needs checking
Done / content added re land acquisitions. More could be said about the process of acquisition of the province but it is potentially a lot of detail. --Jim Killock (talk) 19:28, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • From the time of the return from Gascony, – I can't remember this mentiomed earlier? Did she reside in Gascony while she was queen?
Gascony is mentioned in the para above. I've amended to say when she returned and to give better sourcing of these sentences. --Jim Killock (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gloriette – link? No idea what it is. hard to explain briefly but this should be addressed per MOS
Linked, clarified. --Jim Killock (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image caption: Edward I & II Prince of Wales, portrayed in 1301, some eleven years after Eleanor's death – Why is the prince of Whales relevant? He is not even mentioned in the article.
The PoW is the son of monarch, Eleanor's son, so titled while he was not the King. Caption clarified. --Jim Killock (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Eleanor's reputation began to become more positive following the 1643 publication of Sir Richard Baker's A History of the Kings of England, which retold the myth of Eleanor saving her husband at Acre. Thereafter, Eleanor's reputation was largely positive – When her reputation was largely positive after 1643, why were the crosses destroyed between 1643 and 1646?
The crosses were destroyed as they were redolent of Catholicism, a separate matter to her personal reputation. This is kind of implied at the bit about Parliament's Committee for the Demolition of Monuments of Superstition and Idolatry being responsible for at least one removal, I will see if I can find some other source explaining this. --Jim Killock (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Edited to make this clearer Jim Killock (talk) 07:21, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "clarification tag" has to be resolved.
Done --Jim Killock (talk) 18:29, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image caption: Eleanor – can this caption be expanded to state that it is a statue and where it is located, on what building?
Done --Jim Killock (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This: 1241 – 28 – the en dash (–) is written without spaces, e.g. 5–8. was reverted by an editor. --Jim Killock (talk) 17:14, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's all the feedback dealt with @Jens Lallensack. --Jim Killock (talk) 19:30, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, looks good. The sources are of high quality, too, and I don't see issues. However, you list several works that are not cited in the article as far as I can see (e.g., Reynolds, Gordon (2023), Tolan, John (2023), and probably others); these should be removed or moved to the "Further reading" section. But that being a minor point, I am happy to promote this now. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:27, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Eleanor_of_Castile&oldid=1250368299"