Talk:El Rey Jesús

Neutrality

Indeed neutrality was questionable, but deleting the second paragraph, leaving the link as an external link I think that there is now neutral. As for the notability of the article, when talking about the largest Hispanic church in the United States, I think can not be questioned. Jgarpal (talk) 08:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Misspelling

An important question is that I think "El rey jesus" has a misspelling very important, because should be "El Rey Jesus" (with capital letters), so I think that someone who can edit and change it should do so. Jgarpal (talk) 09:34, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I changed the title "El rey jesus" for "El Rey Jesus". Jgarpal (talk) 22:34, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Notability

I think the notability is obvious. The largest Hispanic church in the United States, its partor participating in very importants activities with the President of Honduras, and Republican candidates visiting the church as part of his campaign for Governor in Florida. The links are independent. I think there is no doubt. Jgarpal (talk) 10:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• The size of the church is notable and verified through reliable sources. However, claims regarding the size of the church, in relationship to other churches in the United States, need to be supported with multiple secondary and third-party sources. We're not there yet. Cindamuse (talk) 20:22, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Article editing

Great job! Honestly, a great job in the article El Rey Jesus. Thank you very much. I appreciate your help in everything you have done for me and for the article. Thank you very much again! (Jgarpal (talk) 18:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC))

• Thanks, there are several areas that could be added, such as information on the affiliated/daughter churches, links to their websites, and also, I need to copyedit the info on building program. We also need to find a few more links, but it's passable as is. Do you have a list or knowledge of the other pastors on staff? That would also benefit the article, along with greater biographical information on the Senior Pastors. And information on the construction and dedication of the current church building. I think a list of books that the pastor wrote would be a nice addition, as well as a list of prominent guest speakers that have been to the church. I think I read something about Benny Hinn and others. We just need to be very careful overall not to sound "Churchy" or Christianese. Do you understand what I mean by that? The article has be neutral and understood by all readers and not speak to a specific target audience. We should also work on inline wikilinks to other articles, as well as going to other articles and linking to the El Rey Jesus article from the other end. Thanks for letting me help. Cindamuse (talk) 18:49, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
• I also changed the wording about political involvement to community involvement because as a tax exempt organization, the church cannot advocate politically for candidates. The church doesn't need any red flags, so I focused on the statement of encouraging members to exercise their right to vote and pray for their leaders or something like that. Cindamuse (talk) 18:52, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
• One more thing, can you please check the quote by President Lobo and see if I translated accurately? Cindamuse (talk) 18:54, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Honestly, I think you know more that me about the history of El Rey Jesus, though I have visited the church some times. Where did you get information on "Church founders"? Really very good, I would include the links.
  • Perfect change from the "Participation in politics" to "Community Involvement" and perfect reasons.
  • About the Denomination and the Churchmanship, El Rey Jesus is not "Apostolic", because the name is related Apostolic within the evangelical Christian world with a Pentecostal group that does not believe in the Trinity (see Oneness Pentecostalism), and El Rey Jesus are totally believers in the Trinity, in addition to a church that is fully Evangelical (believe that salvation is by grace alone and faith), and, of course, Christianity. Also El Rey Jesus is a independent churh, or another way of putting it is non-denominational, because El Rey Jesus not aligned with an established denomination. Of course, is Pentecostal because El Rey Jesus do special emphasis on the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I think is good for put this in the “Infobox church”, and if this is fine wich you I can do it.
  • Since I mentioned the translation of the words of President Lobo, I have corrected the translation a bit, because there were some words that Lobo was referring to Maldonado and not to the children. Now if you want you can give the better English.
  • About the books of Maldonado, I know he has written enough, but I not have a list of them, if I get it upload it.
  • Benny Hinn effectivity has involved quite a few times at El Rey Jesus; about other famous preachers, I do not know.
  • I also know that Alex Sink will be in the church before the election in November (by the way, I added the section "Political Issues" in the article in Wikipedia about Sink, if you want to read and/or to correct, is fine), and I suppose Rick Scott again. When I'll go mention this when I learn and I have the links.
  • Thanks again for everything.
  • Jgarpal (talk) 20:46, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

• I did some more editing as well, mostly pertaining to building. We have to be very careful in speaking about future events not to violate Wikipedia policy found at WP:CRYSTAL. I'm actually familiar with the church in Florida and one time visited the one in Cape Coral. And I'm also a graduate from Bible college. The information on the founders was on the About us section of the English website, and an article. I can look up foreign language articles through google and translate to find information as well. I will go back later and add references to the translations. The church also specifically states on their website that they are an Apostolic-Pentecostal church. I know that they claim to be nondenominational, but with affiliated/daughter churches, that claim would most likely be challenged by other editors. What the church has basically done by claiming affiliated/daughter churches, is unofficially establish a denomination. They may claim to be nondenominational, but within the etymological (meaning of the word) they are factually an independent denomination. While they perform missions and evangelistic work, the government of the church is Apostolic, rather than Evangelistic. Evangelistic government is theological democracy, while an Apostolic is a theocratic hierarchy governed by a five-fold ministry style. Evangelistic churches also do not recognize or have modern-day apostles and prophets and generally do not adhere to the beliefs in the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It's a semantic variation between Evangelism as a noun, Evangelize as a verb, and Evangelistic as an adjective. Cindamuse (talk) 21:15, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

• I'm glad that you have knowledge of the churches in Florida and that you are a graduate from Bible College. And I'm glad you're doing an excellent job with the article El Rey Jesus.
• About the term apostolic, it is clear that they consider so, since the government of Guillermo Maldonado, who is considered an apostle, but this is a form of government, not an denomination, because it is not in any of the names mentioned in the introductory article of Wikipedia Apostolic. That is, is apostolic as an adjective, not as denomination.
• Obviously, I agree that is not independent, but that is non-denominational o not is debatable, in the sense that it is not part of an organized denomination.
• But is sure that is evangelical, evangelicals are distinctive because the four distinctive in the article of Wikipedia Evangelical, and none of them mentions the baptism of the Holy Spirit or speaking in tongues. And Evangelical has nothing to do with the form of government; democracy in the church is established as a Congregationalist polity and not as Evangelical.
• For me it is clear that El Rey Jesus is Christian, Evangelical and Pentecostal.
• It is not Apostolic in the sense that gives a thist word the Wikipedia in its section Apostolic "Other churches and Religious Movements", since El Rey Jesus can not be included under any of those groups. In my opinion put Apostolic in Denomination and in Churchmanship will create confusion to many Christians on the doctrine of the church.
• About to put the visit of Alex Sink to El Rey Jesus, I will be after she have visited the church, never before.
• I appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation with you. Thanks and regards.
• Jgarpal (talk) 23:52, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
• One last thing I think now. Since our disagreement is as to whether El Rey Jesus is an evangelical or apostolic, but we both agree that El Rey Jesus is pentescostal, I propose to remove in the article the adjectives Evangelical and Apostolic, and keep only the adjective Pentecostal and, of course, Christian.
• Thank you again.
• Jgarpal (talk) 00:31, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

• It is important NOT to rely on other articles within Wikipedia to establish a standard for reference. You are also referring to a disambiguation page rather than an article. Neither of these are considered reliable and or authoritative. I'm afraid we may be discussing semantical differences, along with a language barrier.
  

1. The term "denomination" refers to an officially organized group of adherents to a specific dogma or set of beliefs, and governed within a unified structural organization. In that regard, El Rey Jesus is Independent, rather than nondenominational, because the church has established a set of "daughter" or affiliated churches, that while remaining independent, arguably establishes a new denomination, under the headship of the Apostle Maldonado.
   
2. While the term "Evangelicalism" is a theological belief, the term "Evangelical" (adj) refers to a denomination and form of government, of which, El Rey Jesus is not. Including a notation identifying ERJ as a member of an Evangelical denomination would cause inappropriate confusion. El Rey Jesus may be evangelical in nature and action, but it is not a member of an Evangelical denomination. The article to which you are referring is a redirect to Evangelicalism, providing background on the history and dogma of evangelicalism rather than providing organizational structure or beliefs of current Evangelical denominations.
3. The term "Christian" is not a church denomination, but a title, label, or name given to adherents to the followers of Jesus Christ. It belongs in neither the denomination nor churchmanship notes.
   
4. The term "Pentecostal" is a partial name of several denominations, as well as a belief, i.e., an adherence to the teachings found in Acts that adhere to the belief that the gifts of the Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in tongues are in practice in modern times. El Rey Jesus is not a member of a Pentecostal denomination. However, it could be used in the infobox under denomination as "Independent Pentecostal".
   
5. Based on your statements and the information presented on the church's website, the infobox should accurately display the church denomination as either "Independent", "Independent Pentecostal", or "Independent Apostolic". The church is Apostolic in churchmanship and governance and as such, "Apostolic" should be placed under churchmanship in the infobox. Yes, El Rey Jesus is Christian, Evangelical and Pentecostal. However, those are beliefs of the church and not denominations of which El Rey Jesus is a member. The church may not be Apostolic to you, but it is clearly Apostolic in their minds, governed by a proclamation of governance by an Apostle and Prophet, and stated on their website. This information should be indicated in the article accordingly.
6. Finally, remember that external links and references need to be translated into English. The Spanish links to the daughter churches should be added to the Spanish Wikipedia article. As far as links, you can either link to an English language website, or link to a foreign language website providing translation on the talk page, indicating in the reference within the article, where the translation can be found. Hope this all helps. (BTW, I never attended the church. I only know of this church because I sang there in 2007.) Cindamuse (talk) 20:22, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

• Hello again.
• I disagree on some things you say (I think is very important the information in the articles of Wikipedia), but in reality it is not important. Put "Independent Pentecostal" as denomination is fine with me.
• About that you say "external links and references need to be translated into English", is fine wich me. But I added them because two reasons: 1) You left two links in Spanish when you did your review, renaming the link and making clear that it was in Spanish. 2) You added in a subsequent revision a Spanish link, El Rey Jesus in Hialeah. Also in other Wikipedia articles in English I found references to articles in Spanish. But is ok wich me, when I can I will put the links to a page through a translator.
• Thank you again. Regards.
• Jgarpal (talk) 22:37, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

• Sorry for the confusion about the links. I was in the midst of editing and overlooked that portion. The plan was to include the Spanish link, along with the interpretation, but I could not find one. Then, I got sidetracked. Again, my apologies. Have a great day/evening. Cindamuse (talk) 23:54, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

• Hi again. I changed the links, making as a link the page offered by the Google translator. I also changed the name in the denomination from Apostolic to Independent. I hope now this is all right. Thank you. Jgarpal (talk) 03:05, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
• One more note: I just edit all of this conversation, putting it in the original format. Jgarpal (talk) 03:48, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Books of Guillermo and Ana Maldonado

Hi. Where is the information about the books written by Guillermo and Ana Maldonado? I do not. Greetings. Jgarpal (talk) 00:08, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

erjpub.org — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.202.213.6 (talk) 07:31, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

G12

With regard to these edits [1][2] by well-meaning user @Syncope123: there are three main issues: 1) The content doesn't belong in the lead section. If you are going to endeavor to describe what the church practices, how it is categorized, etc. that needs to go somewhere relevant in the article body, as the purpose of the lead is to summarize content found elsewhere in the article. 2) Without context, "G12" has no meaning to the casual reader. The casual reader is our demographic. 3) The content isn't properly referenced. Wikipedia cannot be used as a reliable source because it is user-contributed like IMDb, TV.com, discussion forums, etc. The other source would not qualify as a reliable source because it has no clear editoral policy. We don't use random websites as references. The content needs to come from a "reliable secondary source that is independent of the subject". If you can find a source that meets Wikipedia's reliable source guidelines, and if you can find a place to add this content so that it makes sense and provides scope, then I'll be fine with it. Thanks. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:47, 29 December 2014 (UTC)