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FH 15:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

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Dubious sourcing of the families section

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See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Naxh#May_2023 User:Naxh has been restoring the families section after I deleted it sometime ago as it had template unreference on it. The editor has defended this by saying "I did not contribute to the family section, but I find it utterly unconscionable that you are choosing to delete it, especially after someone (another author) invested considerable time and effort into compiling it in written form." and "While I acknowledge that my comments may come across as critical, I strongly believe that your neocolonial behavior is disrespectful. It's important to recognize the significant effort the authors put into documenting Lebanon's history and genealogy in English even if it was in 2009, especially given the current circumstances in the country."

That section, which deals with two families including two brothers who are supposedly alive now, was written by three editors in 2009. Naxh has now added a book (the same book they used earlier) as a reference for each section. It seems very unlikely that all three used used the same source, and very dubious that a 2008 book covers all the text and of course it can't be used to say anyone is alive today.

I am asking for page numbers and quotes for each paragraph. I also don't understand how details such as someone living in the upper part of a village, or indeed all the details about where people live, are encyclopedic.

I note that most of the sources are poor, and citation 1 is just a note. Doug Weller talk 20:31, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All of the brothers have passed away. I'm puzzled about what exactly is unclear regarding the "upper part of the village." @Doug Weller intentionally omitted certain sections of my messages to him, and I have attached them below for your reference. Lastly, I am committed to improving this page and will devote some time over the weekend to enhance it. Best regards.
Message 1: “Hi Doug, my sources are from a physical book called: Jidejian, Nina. Beirut, a City of Contrast. Mansourieh: Editions ALEPH, 2008.” Naxh(talk) 19:24, 18 May 2023 (UTC)”
Message 2: “I did not contribute to the family section, but I find it utterly unconscionable that you are choosing to delete it, especially after someone (another author) invested considerable time and effort into compiling it in written form. Additionally, if you are interested in exploring further, there are two highly informative books that shed light on the histories of Lebanese families: "The Lebanese in the World: A Century of Emigration" by Albert Hourani and "A History of Modern Lebanon" by Fawwaz Traboulsi. If you wish to delve into Lebanese genealogy, I can provide you with a long list of bibliographic references. I appreciate that the references I have align with the content described in the article. However, I fail to comprehend why you would choose to censor or regulate a topic that holds no relevance to you in the United States, the United Kingdom, or wherever else you are located. That seems like colonial behavior to me. Best.  Naxh (talk) 21:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)”
Message 3: “While I acknowledge that my comments may come across as critical, I strongly believe that your neocolonial behavior is disrespectful. It's important to recognize the significant effort the authors put into documenting Lebanon's history and genealogy in English even if it was in 2009, especially given the current circumstances in the country. The high immigration rates are cause for concern, especially in eastern Christian communities who are disappearing from the region, and it is crucial that we preserve and make accessible the history of Lebanon in English for all those who have left. If you are genuinely interested, I encourage you to consider purchasing one of the many books available and immersing yourself in Lebanese history and genealogy? There are numerous books published in multiple languages, including in Arabic and French. Most of them are available at the Oriental Library that you can borrow in case you are not willing to spend money on such a purchase. These resources provide valuable insights into the ancestral history of Lebanon and cater to a wider audience. It's worth exploring these publications to gain a comprehensive understanding of Lebanese genealogy from various linguistic perspectives. Additionally, reaching out to reliable sources such as the Municipality of Mansourieh and the Lebanese Ministry of the Interior can provide certified proof and further information on these families. While I acknowledge that there is room for improvement on this Wikipedia page, I respectfully disagree with your claim that it is very bad as you suggest. I have seen much worse around here. However, I do recognize the importance of enhancing its quality and accuracy. As a proactive step, I am willing to take responsibility and update the picture and maybe even some of the text to ensure its relevance. Nah (talk) 17:16, 19 May 2023 (UTC)”
I find it difficult to comprehend Doug Weller's aggressive behavior, particularly considering his apparent lack of knowledge regarding Lebanese and Levantine history and genealogy. Naxh (talk) 15:22, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Naxh I see no response to "I am asking for page numbers and quotes for each paragraph. I also don't understand how details such as someone living in the upper part of a village, or indeed all the details about where people live, are encyclopedic." Note I didn't say anything is unclear. Source for the brothers being dead? I didn't see a need to quote you in full. I don't think you understand our sourcing policy. We don't reach out to sources and ask them questions. That's against policy, we only use reliably published sources. And yes, I've seen worse, that's no excuse for this one being bad. Genealogy doesn't really belong here nor would we use genealogical sources themselves normally. And sorry, it's not up to me to source unsourced material. It's up to the person who reinstates it, and you haven't done that yet. One of the beauties of Wikipedia is that you do not have to be an expert in a subject, you just have to be good at research and understand our policies and guidelines. Doug Weller talk 16:12, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Doug Weller,
I hope this message finds you in good health. I wanted to inform you that I have put significant effort into editing this Wikipedia article. I have dedicated considerable time to gathering relevant articles, translating them, and citing to them in the text. In terms of the family history section, I have found numerous bibliographical references (exceeding 5-10 in number). However, I have only cited two references in this text that accurately support the provided information. These references are physical books available at the libraries of Saint Joseph University of Beirut and the American University of Beirut. Additionally, the second book I cited has a digital version accessible for free: https://archive.org/details/olomnasb_ymail_20180116/page/n205/mode/2up. To confirm the accuracy, I encourage you to review pages 210-217 of the book. If you require further evidence, I am willing to scan and translate passages from the first book and provide them to you. I apologize for accusing you of neocolonial behavior; it was never my intention to offend you. I became frustrated at the thought of someone erasing the work of another author. Please accept my sincerest apologies. I am committed to creating and maintaining a safe and respectful environment for everyone involved. I am eager to receive your constructive criticism and learn from your expertise.
Best regards. Naxh (talk) 02:00, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Naxh You have done a lot of work, I agree. The problem is that as a new editor you aren't familiar with what sources can be used. I'm taking this to the appropriate forum so that uninvolved editors can comment - see WP:RSN#Sourcing questions for El Mansouria, Lebanon. I'm sorry if this causes you more work but it's important to learn how to create a well sourced article. If you look at my talk page you'll see I'm not well, in fact I'm dying, so I want to get out of this article so I can work on bigger priorities. One of my "weaknesses" as an editor is that I've gotten involved with articles because I've accidentally found poor editors or vandals editing articles which led me to look at other articles they edited, and I could never resist trying to fix things. Doug Weller talk 16:34, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am truly sorry to hear about your health, and I want to express my heartfelt wishes for your recovery. I also wanted to extend my gratitude for your invaluable contributions to Wikipedia. As a regular donor myself, I hope to be able to contribute as much as you have in the future. I am determined to familiarize myself with citation systems and enhance my knowledge in this area. The books I cited to are legitimate and I have consulted the physical copies at the Oriental Library. I am happy to scan and translate any passage of interest. I hold a degree in history and this is all interesting to me. Although I have recently entered the job market, the current economic situation leaves me with limited time for writing. However, I have already started working on topics I am passionate about and have some knowledge in. Please take ample rest and prioritize your well-being. If spending your remaining days here brings you joy, then by all means continue doing so! Naxh (talk) 05:16, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I just went on your talk page. I genuinely regret how everything started, and I sincerely offer my apologies once again. Furthermore, please be aware that you have a digital 'friend' who is wholeheartedly ready to lend an empathetic ear. I want to assure you that this is not an expression of pity, but rather a genuine act of kindness from someone who can relate to the hardships of life and the absurdity of the human condition. Naxh (talk) 05:21, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks very much. As I said, I've posted at RSN - one of the hardest things to learn on Wikipedia is what sources are acceptable and what are not. Some are ok for one thing but not another. As a pretty inexperienced editor I would not expect you to know this and I think that's why I see problems with a number of your sources. If you read my post a the reliable sources noticeboard you'll see I've tried to analyse them. Again, this is NOT a criticism of your work and I appreciate your enthusiasm and effort. Doug Weller talk 07:31, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comprehensive feedback. I have thoroughly reviewed your comments and I will now defer to other editors to consider and address them while I work on something else. Naxh (talk) 15:50, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Naxh As will I, just hope someone responds. Doug Weller talk 16:15, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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