Talk:Eileen Gibb

This article was nominated for deletion on 21 August 2020. The result of the discussion was Reframe.

This page was proposed for deletion by Piotrus (talk · contribs) on 21 August 2020.

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Moving forward

@Piotrus:, YorkshireLad, Djm-leighpark, TTN, AlgaeGraphix, Pigsonthewing, Jontesta, PamD and Robert Fraser, who all participated in the AfD discussion.

As you all know, the result of the discussion was essentially to turn this article into a biography of Eileen Gibb. I am reluctant to move the article in its current state, but not opposed to such a move once we have reworked the article. Access to library services is restricted for many editors at the moment due to the COVID-19 pandemic. It is going to need someone with access to Hampshire Libraries to do the research on this one. It is likely that there was an obituary in one of the local/regional papers at the time of her death. Another avenue of research is in contemporary railway magazines, as it is possible that they also posted an obituary. Is is possible that the RHDR published something in its members magazine? I will pursue that avenue of enquiry myself. In the meantime, in you can improve the article, please do. Mjroots (talk) 17:39, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've tried (admittedly not for very long) to find sources for this and drawn a blank. My university library seems to have nothing useful, only the books Gibb herself wrote about Sammy, and an obituary of a completely different Eileen Gibb who was a doctor. Nothing is coming up when I search the Hampshire library catalogue for her either as an author (including under her married name) or as a keyword (likewise). But they presumably haven't indexed their newspaper collections online, and I'm not particularly near Hampshire to go and look. Sorry not to be of more help, but I will keep looking when I have a minute. YorkshireLad ✿ ^(talk) 19:04, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for trying, but I am afraid that first, we need to move this to Eileen Gibb and rewrite. Second, well, if no better sources are found... Not all the authors are notable, but doing it this way should at least get her an entry in deletionpedia or something. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:21, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Piotrus Nope in my view "we" don't. I certainly "I" don't. It is in my view not necessary to move it at this time and in my view article survives as is on its own merits, being now sufficiently referenced, and a keep/no-consensus being the likely result of an AfD. A move to Eileen Gibb at this time would likely result in someone having a pot-shot at that BLP article. You are welcome however to create a re-frame as a consideration as a talk sub-page. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 05:41, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is my understanding that User:Sandstein who closed this used the rare term 'reframe' for what I described above, given that no sources were found for the notability of this fictional character, and only some borderline sources for the notability of the author. Let's see what he will say, since indeed 'reframe' is not a very common AfD ruling. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:54, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Piotrus, sorry if the term is somewhat esoteric. The consensus of the AfD as i read it was indeed to make a biography of Eileen Gibb out of this article. If this is not done, or editorial consensus for how to do it is not reached, a new AfD is possible. Sandstein 09:05, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, then the two of us are on the same page. To preserve page history this should be done here them moved to where the redirect is. Then we can debate whether the new article merits an AfD or not. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:38, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein: as the creator of this article, I accept your closure of the AfD discussion. I raised this here for discussion of how to go about implementing the result of the Afd, also flagging up that due to the current COVID-19 situation, we might not be able to do this as fast as might otherwise have been possible. Constructive suggestions as to sourcing and the structure of the article are welcome from all editors. Piotrus that is the plan, rewrite the article, then move not vice versa. Mjroots (talk) 09:41, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done, through I couldn't move the talk page since there is already a talk page there. But I guess this is fine, this can remain here. Talk pages should not be deleted or blanked in principle, IMHO. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:45, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, @Mjroots:, for moving the talk page, which needed to be done: you did it while I was typing the WP:RM request. PamD 09:57, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PamD and I was putting in a request for move protection at WP:RFPP. Mjroots (talk) 09:59, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mjroots: Good idea, and I think would have reflected consensus at this stage. But at least the talk page has now been reunited with its page. PamD 10:08, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

2-4-2

Can anyone think of a good reason a 2-4-2 would be a shunter? I can possibly think of one or two possibly good reasons why it wouldn't. Djm-leighpark (talk) 06:20, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Artists licence? Mjroots (talk) 07:13, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Probably because Thomas was first and grabbed the 0-6-0T slot. Aspinall L&YR's 2-4-2T's were fastish passenger tanks. I think some Southern 2-4-2T's operated near Sunnindale where Gibb was, again passenger tanks Djm-leighpark (talk) 07:45, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Bookseller

Google snippet view suggests that there's a good source to be had in The Bookseller: what we can read is "Return of Sammy the Shunter: Twenty years ago Ian Allan pub-". PamD 09:14, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

British Newspaper Archive

I don't have access to this source but there's a potentially useful source in the British Newspaper Archive. YorkshireLad ✿ ^(talk) 10:00, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What search terms and dates are we talking? Mjroots (talk) 10:09, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mjroots, it came up for just the search term "eileen gibb sammy shunter" (without the quotation marks). Perhaps the fourth result down. YorkshireLad ✿ ^(talk) 10:13, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not seeing anything on that link, except a regstration page. I've got some access via my library website, but only for newspapers from 1801-1900. Mjroots (talk) 10:17, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, this is (of course) from after that. Perhaps this link will work? Anyway, the story is called "Dart Valley Rail has new chief" and is mostly about Mr Holder, though does mention Gibb and that they "will spend a lot of time in Devon from now...", based on the preview. YorkshireLad ✿ ^(talk) 10:48, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I now have replaced my lost Hants library card and was able to have a quick access through the Leigh Park (Parkie) library this afternoon for 20 mins and did briefly see the Dart Valley PreView. From the library computers I do have access to a few resources I dont have otherwise; though probably little different to the Wikipedia library card in practice. The Parkie library is only open 10:00-16:00 mon & thu and while I am often around thu. on monday I may only be around for part of the morning if that. But if anyone wants me to try to access a particular digital resource from a Hampshire Library computer let me know [1] (Not everything is that easy). That said while Eileen Gibb was buried in Lymington (assumably with her husband) she seems to have died in Winchester and residence seems to have been in Surrey (just possibly with a spell in Canada or that could be a red herring). Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 23:31, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that opens up another area of research, Surrey newspapers. Anyone with a Surrey library card? Mjroots (talk) 11:22, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You'd be looking in the Cobham/Sunbury/Sunningdale/Egham sort of areas. As an offchance I'd wonder if they know anything at the Great Cockrow Railway ? Djm-leighpark (talk) 13:28, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Notability

IMvHO, the tag should be removed. Gibb was the author of about 20 books, which should be sufficient to meet GNG. Mjroots (talk) 11:26, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't GNG require the sources to be independent of the subject, though? YorkshireLad ✿ ^(talk) 11:51, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It does, and WP:NOTINHERITED. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:23, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

Died Winchester 11/ Wed John Terence (Terry) Holder January 1942 (Chelsea) Residence Surrey 1934. (At Parkie Lib) Djm-mobile (talk) 14:38, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Husband died 22 December 1986 Lymington. Possibly in Canada from ? 1959. Daughter Carolyn Elizabeth in Canada Djm-mobile (talk) 14:43, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]