Talk:Edward Law, 1st Earl of Ellenborough

Biography: Peerage and Baronetage / Politics and Government

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Queens Bench Prison

He had a nickname here.

“ The Bench! Awful sound! What visions of folly and roguery, of sloth and seediness, of ruin and recklessness, are conjured up to the imagination in these two words! It is the “Hades” of commerce—the “Inferno” of fortune. Within its grim walls—surmounted by a chevaux de frise, classically termed “Lord Ellenborough’s teeth”—dwell at this moment members of almost every class of society.”

Why him? 2A00:23C7:E284:CF00:1425:DCDB:45A:16E0 (talk) 08:09, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Excerpt From Recollections of a Policeman William Russell This material may be protected by copyright.

That was unlikely to be this Lord Ellenborough. That term shows up in in Grose's "1811 Dictionary in the Vulgar Tongue" <https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/5402/pg5402.html>:

ELLENBOROUGH LODGE. The King's Bench Prison. Lord Ellenborough's teeth; the chevaux de frize round the top of the wall of that prison.

And is not in the 1788 version <https://publicdomainreview.org/collection/a-classical-dictionary-of-the-vulgar-tongue-1788>.

This Lord Ellenborough was 20 or 21 in 1811, probably still at university, and had not yet entered politics. On the other hand, his father, Edward Law, 1st Baron Ellenborough, was 60 or 61, and was Lord Chief Justice. It seems more likely that a prison was named after a judge than a student.

Comma after post-nominals

@HandsomeFella: Regarding your revision 1045752169, why does there need to be a comma there? I thought post-nominals shouldn't be followed by a comma. See for example Margaret Thatcher or Winston Churchill:

Margaret Hilda Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher, LG, OM, DStJ, PC, FRS, HonFRSC (née Roberts; 13 October 1925 – 8 April 2013) was ...

Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill, KG, OM, CH, TD, DL, FRS, RA (30 November 1874 – 24 January 1965) was ...

MOS:POSTNOM doesn't mention a trailing comma:

Post-nominal letters should either be separated from the name by a comma and each set divided by a comma, or no commas should be used at all. If a baronetcy or peerage is held, then commas should always be used for consistency's sake, as the former are separated from the name by a comma.

— W.andrea (talk) 16:16, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@W.andrea:

Thanks for asking. After reading MOS:POSTNOM, I realize that those guidelines are incomplete and need clarification. They say, "Post-nominal letters should either be separated from the name by a comma and each set divided by a comma, or no commas should be used at all.", and then goes on to give a couple of incomplete example of "Joe Bloggs" leads with or without commas. The leads are incomplete in the sense that they don't continue past the point where a comma optionally (for other reasons) is needed, e.g. "... is a [nationality] [profession] who ...".

If they did, the result would be

With commas: '''Joe Bloggs''', {{post-nominals|size=100%|sep=,|country=GBR|VC|OBE}}, is a [nationality] [profession] who ... gives: Joe Bloggs, , is a [nationality] [profession] who ...
Without commas: '''Joe Bloggs''' {{post-nominals|country=GBR|VC|OBE}} is a [nationality] [profession] who ... gives: Joe Bloggs is a [nationality] [profession] who ...

The first example, the one with commas, would leave part of the sentence dangling if there were no closing comma:

With commas: '''Joe Bloggs''', {{post-nominals|size=100%|sep=,|country=GBR|VC|OBE}} is a [nationality] [profession] who ... gives: Joe Bloggs, is a [nationality] [profession] who ...

Can you see that it says "OBE is a [nationality] [profession] who ..."? The preceding part of the sentence – Joe Bloggs, VC – is left dangling.

The guidelines do not say that there should no commas regardless of other circumstances, only that post-nominals by themselves do not require a comma – unless of course they themselves are comma-separated, in which case they need to be set off with commas at both ends, just like WP:COMMA says. As MOS:POSTNOM currently stands, it could be perceived to be in conflict with WP:COMMA.

Even without commas separating the post-nominals though, a comma is needed in this case because of the subject's title: 1st Earl of Ellenborough. It too needs to be set off, or it would leave his name dangling.

Let me show a few examples with "progression".

No title, no post-nominals = obviously no commas:

Edward Law (1790–1871) was a British Tory politician.

Title, but no post-nominals = commas at both ends:

Edward Law, 1st Earl of Ellenborough (1790–1871), was a British Tory politician.

No title, but post-nominals not comma-separated = no commas.

Edward Law GCB PC (1790–1871) was a British Tory politician.

No title, but comma-separated post-nominals = commas at both ends:

Edward Law, GCB, PC (1790–1871), was a British Tory politician.

Both a title, and comma-separated post-nominals = commas at both ends:

Edward Law, 1st Earl of Ellenborough, GCB, PC (1790–1871), was a British Tory politician.

Are we in agreement?

HandsomeFella (talk) 19:02, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@HandsomeFella: I hear what you're saying, but post-nominals are not generally followed by a comma. See the examples I mentioned, and if you go through the list of UK Prime Ministers, you'll see a ton more who have titles and post-nominals with commas, like Thatcher: James Callaghan, Harold Wilson, Alec Douglas-Home, Harold Macmillan, Clement Attlee, Stanley Baldwin, Arthur Balfour, Henry John Temple, 3rd Viscount Palmerston, Robert Peel, Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington...

— W.andrea (talk) 20:07, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They should be in all cases you mention, for the above reasons. Forgive me for pointing it out, but that is circular evidence. I'll start a discussion on clarifying MOS:POSTNOM. HandsomeFella (talk) 20:14, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, lists of postnominals should never be ended by a comma if they're followed by dates. That's not normal English. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:23, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion started at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#Clarification needed on MOS:POSTNOM.

HandsomeFella (talk) 11:11, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]