Talk:Education in the United States/Archive 2005

Sources needed

• Pre school:
  • there is a chronic nationwide shortage of quality preschools because most parents simply cannot afford better. (better child care?), the sentence is ambigious and needs a source.
• College or Univeristy:
  • The vast majority of students never attend postgraduate courses and, after obtaining their bachelor's degree, proceed directly into the work force. What percentage of students do undertake postgraduate study?
• Public vs. private schools: Primary and secondary education:
  • Unlike most other industrialized countries, the United States does not have a nationalized educational system. I'm not sure what you mean ny nationalised, which countires do have nationalised systems?
  • Although they are free to all students, most public K-12 schools are moderately underfunded by their respective governments, and can only afford to employ teachers with bachelor's and associate's degrees. Please add a reference
  • In poorer districts, teachers often must buy materials for their students out of their own salaries. Is this true, also needs a ref.
  • In contrast, private schools usually maintain high quality facilities and a sufficient number of teachers to keep class sizes lower than in public schools, generally around 15 and usually capped at 20. This is possible partly because private schools pay their teachers less (often about 80% of the public school pay scale) and partly because private schools are at liberty to refuse any more students after they have reached their full capacity, whereas public schools are required by law to give education to anyone who signs up. Grammar is poor in this section, it could also use a reference.
• Public vs. private schools: Colleges and universities: Cost:
  • The vast majority of students lack the financial resources to pay tuition up-front and must rely on student loans and scholarships from their university, the federal government, or a private lender. How many is vast, an actual number would be nice?

--nixie 04:48, 21 June 2005 (UTC)

I corrected most of these issues. In the comparison of public and private schools to which you referred, I actually just removed the figures, which eliminates in real need for a source. I don't think one exists, I think that's an estimate on the part of the originl author. Much of the current article was once worded in such a manner, which subtley cast public education in a bad light. I changed up the wording. See if you like the changes.--naryathegreat | (talk) June 28, 2005 14:52 (UTC)

Another list

I think this article has significantly improved since it was listed on peer review. Well done to all the editors. Below is a list of further improvements that might be made:

• There are also non-entrepreneurial schools that are private. - explain non-entrepreneurial, it's an uncommon term. [1]
• there are even counselors who specialize in assisting parents and their toddlers through the preschool admissions process. - needs a source.
• parents may educate their own children at home (although not widespread) - may be better to quote a statistic for this (with a source).
• Some groups think that children should stay in school longer, but there is little momentum from this angle. - if there is little momentum don't mention it or mention it and quote a source.
• most thoroughly unstandardized - is a tautology.
• Teachers receive a book to give to the students for each subject and only a brief overview of what they are expected to teach. - could use further explanation.
• In general, a student learns through extremely rudimentary algebra in mathematics, grammar and spelling in English (or language), and a year of state, U.S., and world history. - needs fixing. Maybe something as simple as, In general, students focus on reading, writing and arithmetic. would work.
• Science varies widely from district to district and is one of the most undertaught subjects; most elementary teachers have a degree in English or education. - needs a source.
• "adequate yearly progress." - could use a reference (possibly to the legislation itself).
• Midterms and finals paragraph could uses one or more sources.
• The vast majority of students never attend postgraduate courses - arguments like these are often more compelling if statistics are quoted (with a source).
• It is widely believed that large class sizes contribute to discipline problems and a poor learning environment. - need a source.
• The Primary and secondary education section in general could do with more citations.
• Some states have experimented with the two-tier framework and then returned to a single, unified public university system. - needs an example.
• In the Colleges and universities section consider rewriting the section so that it does not use the "University of [state name]"/"[state name] State University" format but instead mentions the University of California/California State University.
• the most prestigious universities are - Try some of the most prestigious universities are. The Times Higher Education Supplement place UC Berkeley, MIT and Caltech ahead of the other Ivy League schools.
• the School Board of the State of Kansas caused controversy - cite a news article for this event, there are plenty around.
• History section needs citations.

Cedars 08:41, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I finally got around to fixing these. I hope to post it to FAC soon. Thanks for all the help.--naryathegreat | (talk) 21:13, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm wondering who came up with the statement that the average child in the US goes to Kindergarten between 5 to 7 years old. Some children do not go until 6, but 7 is right out! Many states now have an age restricted system where children cannot be skipped ahead or held behind. This was the case when we were in Kentucky many moons ago. Heather Ceana K. Schmidt

Rewrite of subsection: Private vs. Public K-12

I've largely rewritten the subsection comparing private and public education. It now includes an explanation of what a school board is, a brief discussion of magnet schools, and more information on the variety of private schools (funding sources, special vs. general education).

I've removed much of the discussion comparing the merits of private and public school systems. The previous version was not NPOV. For instance, it said, "Some private schools...provide a challenging and varied curriculum," but it neglected to mention that the same is true of some public schools. The previous version also made some controversial claims for which no source was provided. (For instance, "Most public K-12 schools are moderately underfunded by their respective governments.") I think it's best for this article to avoid a discussion about whether public or private education is better. There's no way to do this without violating the NPOV and original research rules.

Empiricallyrob 06:07, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Elementary- grammar- grade- public school- added to the section

All can be used more or less interchangibly and without futher explanation but to conform with the Middle-, junior high, intermediate- pattern below I added these alternatives to the first section mentioned above. Are "public school" and "intermediate school" used outside of New York City? Most pre-high schools in NYC are numbered and are preceded by P.S. or I.S. This may be a NYC thing only though. 69.203.126.148 06:17, 27 September 2005 (UTC)KRP

I think you're right about the numbering being a NYC thing. In California, nearly all schools are named after some famous person (or a renowned local educator), and are not numbered. "Public school" generally refers to any government-operated school (elementary, intermediate, or high school). Intermediate and junior high school are used somewhat interchangeably on the West Coast. For example, for grades 7 and 8, I attended a school that was formally designated as an "Intermediate School," but everyone informally called it "junior high." --Coolcaesar 12:12, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

2006 Budget numbers

I'm not positive but I believe I heard or read in the news a while back that the 2006 budget for the Department of Education was something like $50 billion. Anybody have a source for the $120.3 billion number? I'll do some searching later when I get more time to be sure.

It's actually $69.4 billion. I just added up the mandatory and discretionary at United States Department of Education when I made the box, but the mandatory is overstated their by about $50 billion (maybe an accident with the total). The data is at [2]--naryathegreat | (talk) 03:32, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Peer Review

My brief skim of this indicates that it is a good candidate for featured article status and that the number of lists have been cut-down with only 2 so that those of us not from the [[United States|USA] understand the rest of the article. -- Chazz88 16:41, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

While America technically has a form of national education (The Department of Education), it is far less centralized than the education system of more nationally centeralized countries like France. America's federal education system originated with Lyndon Johnson's 1979 Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA), which functioned mainly to close acheivement gaps between the majority of students and students from low-income families, students with disabilities, or students with limited English profficiency. The ESEA did not create federal regulation of education, but rather provided funds to help the specified struggling groups of students (Title I funds). Its ammending acts--Bill Clinton's Improving America's Schools Act (IASA) and George Bush's No Child Left Behind Act (NCLBA)--have broadened federal influence on public education, but public education is still largely centered around the state education systems. This is most apparent in the sources of funding for public education. While federal "Title I" funds help states supplement education funds, the vast majority of funding still comes from state funding and local property taxes, and it is the states and local districts that decide how these funds should be spent.

Recently, public educaiton has been moving towards a more nationally centralized system. No Child Left Behind is the most broad affecting piece of national education legislation to date. No Child sets specific requirements for schools to meet and punishes shortfalls with specific sanctions like requireing tutoring for struggling students, after school programs, and even restructuring if absolutely necessary. It does not offer more funding, nor does it withhold funding when schools are sanctioned. However, the sanctions often require money to be implemented, and as a result, state funds are spread thin and some schools recieve less than they otherwise might. Whether No Child Left Behind unconstitutionally encroaches on state political sovereignty is still being debated. A flurry of litigation between states and the federal government has resulted.

However, it can still be quite reasonably argued that America does not have a nationally centralized education system. Especially not to the extent that more nationally centralized countries such as France have.