Talk:Edith Garrud

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See also Talk:Suffrajitsu

The talk page for Suffrajitsu has discussion that editors may find useful for this article. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:15, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Edith Margaret Garrud/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Edwininlondon (talk · contribs) 13:17, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Happy to review this against the GA criteria in the next few days. Edwininlondon (talk) 13:17, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Before starting the review, one question: Is Edith Margaret Garrud the best article title? I just picked a random ref, the Islington Tribune, and it writes about her as Edith Garrud. As per WP:MIDDLENAME and MOS:NAME we should use the most common format of a name used in reliable sources as the article title and then give the full name in the first line of the article. So it comes down to: is she generally known as Edith Garrud or Edith Margaret Garrud? Edwininlondon (talk) 08:40, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for looking at this, Edwininlondon. In sources, it's almost exclusively "Edith Garrud", which is currently a redirect to this page. Shall I request a page move? BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:15, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, please. Edwininlondon (talk) 15:19, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Now moved. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:10, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• In the lead we also need to give her birthname: add née Williams to the years within brackets, see for instance Lisa del Giocondo.

• Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• British martial artist and suffragist --> link martial artist here, instead of in th enext sentence. Also link suffragist

• Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• She was among the first female professional martial arts instructors in the United Kingdom --> the body has actually a bit "stronger" records, why not use those?

• Amended. I've also re-ordered the material in the lead, after reading the essay section WP:FIRSTWOMAN. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:58, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

• the Bodyguard unit of the Women's Social and Political Union (WSPU) --> "the Bodyguard", a unit to protect Emmeline Pankhurst, leader of the Women's Social and Political Union (WSPU), ...

• Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• link London

• Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• is the capital in Bartitsu deliberate? Or should it be lowercase like jujutsu?

• Seems to be capitalised in most sources, possibly because it was the name of Barton-Wright's limited company (see the Clifford source). BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• under the school's jiujitsu --> within the article one spelling for jujutsu should be used (exception being book titles)

Amended. I added a note too. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:30, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• from Japan --> country names are not supposed to be linked (I never liked this rule, but still, we should follow it).

• Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• its doors, the --> perhaps a full stop, or semi-colon, or "and"?

• I went for "and" BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• studying under Sadakazu Uyenshi --> on second use of a person's name only use the surname

• Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:30, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• The Garrud's took --> The Garruds took

• Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk)

• first British woman teacher --> female?

• Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:58, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

• leading the group's procession at a WFL parade in 1911. --> since the rest of the paragraph seems to be about things before 1909, maybe move this bit, if possible

• Moved that to the end of the para. (Amended to 1910 as per comment below.) BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:58, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

• Suffragettes' Self-Defence Club --> would be good to try and explain somewhere that WSPU members were called duffragettes

• Added. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:30, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• assaults.[10], although --> something gone wrong with the punctuation
• in a report on reported on Garrud's classes --> ?
• through life." --> through life".
• In January 1911, Edith Garrud --> just Garrud suffices, it is clear it is her and not her husband
• link polemic
• the Garrud's transferred their business --> the Garruds
• whereby Suffragette leaders --> lowercase s (the BBC uses lowercase s, so that seems right), and no link
• "the Bodyguard", its role was to protect --> perhaps a full stop instead of comma
• under the Cat and mouse act --> use same capitalisation as in the beginning of paragraph
• to arrest their leader --> I would say: to arrest Pankhurst

• Amended for the 10 points above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• On several occasions --> did these ocasions include those 2 famous "battles"?

•  Pending

• "Suffragette Escapes and Adventures" --> Suffragette Escapes and Adventures
• Emmeline Pankhurst had decided --> Pankhurst had decided
• British Government --> not so sure about that capital G
• Edith Garrud was the subject --> Garrud was the subject

• Amended for the six points above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• In 1971 she died at the age of 99 --> anything known about when William died?

• Added. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:16, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• Mike Callan, Conor Heffernan and Amanda Spenn argue --> Mike Callan, Conor Heffernan and Amanda Spenn argued
• the Suffragettes --> the suffragettes
• Edith Ellyn in Suffragette --> Edith Ellyn in the movie Suffragette
• Helena Bonham Carter requested --> explain who she is, eg. Actress Helena Bonham Carter requested
• radical suffragettes --> isn't that a bit double up?
• Islington London Borough Council, the words on the plaque read: --> . instead of ,
• The Suffragette that knew --> lowercase s
• Commemorative plaque in Thornhill Square, outside Garrud's former home. --> no fullstop for captions thare are phrases

• Amended for the eight points above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• I came across this biography, have you seen it? [1]

• Yes, I avoided using it because it's self-published (although Tony Wolf may very well meet the expertise requirements for using WP:SPS). BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• The Crawford book mentions she had 2 children. Should probably be added

• Added. Crawford says that she had a son who died in the Second World War, whilst Clifford says "Their oldest son Owen was killed in action in August 1918". It's possible that they had at least two sons but I thought it best to avoid additional details here. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:16, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I'll have a look at the references and all the criteria tomorrow but this looks promising. Edwininlondon (talk) 22:18, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Images: rights are all fine. Broad coverage is fine, no omissions as far as I can tell. Neutral PoV.

References:

• Formatting is ok
• The source Bustle is on the checklist of (un)reliable sources as "no consensus" and " its reliability should be decided on an instance-by-instance basis." I decide it is ok to use in this context.
• I checked whether a bunch of sources say what is claimed they say: these were all okay: 1 2 7 8 11
• source 3 did not back up "the first jujutsu teacher in Europe", do you have another source for this?

• Removed, as I didn't easily find a reliable source for "first". BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• source 4 needs a page number (both 4a and 4b)

•  Pending. Lewolka would you be able to provide the page numbers for the Power, Politics and Exclusion in Organization and Management source please? BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC) Also, is there a soure for "In 1903 the Bartitsu Academy of Arms and Physical Culture closed its doors, and the Garruds continued studying under Uyenishi after he established his own jujutsu dojo The School of Japanese Self Defence in Golden Square, Soho." ? I've removed this for now as I couldn't find a source. Thanks. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:46, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• source 5 needs a page number and only partially seems to cover the claims. I suspect source 4 could cover the rest
• source 6 needs a page number for each of a to e; for 6b: source has parade in 1910

  Amended parade year. Added "via" paramenter as the page numbers are from the uhra.herts.ac.uk copy and don't match the range in the journal citation. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• source 9 needs a page number for each of a to d
• neither source 14 nor 15 seems to be able to confirm the actual date of "Battle of Glasgow" being on 9 March 1914. Is there another one?

• Added a source. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:10, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• Are number 2 and 3 the same?

• Yes, now only used once. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Page added sorry was away until now Lewolka (talk) 19:36, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, Lewolka. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:58, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Final point: I'm not so sure about the panel at the bottom of the page about Physical culture. Perhaps better to show it closed rather than open? And I would definitely add a second panel about suffragetes or something women's rights. That's all from me. Let me know if something is not clear or anything else I can help with. Edwininlondon (talk) 11:15, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

I added Template:Suffrage. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:02, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi Edwininlondon, I got hold of the full 1965 interview and the full chapter from McMurray & Pullen (2019) (thanks for identifying that one Lewolka!) which can be used for adding to the article, so if you're OK to keep this open and review again after a ping then that would be great, but if you prefer to close it so it can be renominated after the next round of amendments are made, then that's fine. I also checked the eighth edition of William Garrud's book, which included a "Foreword to Seventh edition" (so from 1949) which notes that he died "since the fifth edition" (1935). It may be that Edith Garrud remarried, but otherwise this contradicts what appears in other sources, which I assume is based on her 1965 interview comment that "my husband was a gymnastics teacher who died five years ago", where her husband is not named. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:09, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

That sounds good. I'm happy to keep this review open as long as you like. Edwininlondon (talk) 10:20, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Great news thank you both (I was hoping not to disturb the review too much). We can also add from Femininity, Crime and Self-Defence in Victorian Literature and Society From Dagger-Fans to Suffragettes by Emelyne Godfrey which I have :) Lewolka (talk) 12:36, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi Edwininlondon, I think the article is ready for another review - thanks for your patience. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:56, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

This now meets all the requirements. I have made a few minor edits. Great work. I appreciate the effort you both have put in. May I suggest you consider trying to improve it even more and then nominate it as a Featured Article Candidate? It would make a fine article for on the main page one day. Edwininlondon (talk) 15:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks, Edwininlondon. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:59, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

That is so great!Lewolka (talk) 20:52, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Personal life

According to scholar Emelyne Godfrey, a year after the Garruds took over Uyenishi’s dojo, she divorced William and opened a different School. link Is there another source for Edith and William Garrud continued to work as self-defence and jujutsu instructors until 1925, when they sold their school? not sure Vice is WP:RELIABLE here Lewolka (talk) 13:51, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Clifford (here) also says "They continued teaching self-defence until 1925". I'm going to try to get hold of the Woman article from 1965, as, although it's not independent, it might be the source for some of the claims made in other sources. (Godfrey cites the article in Femininity, Crime and Self-Defence in Victorian Literature and Society: From Dagger-Fans to Suffragettes, for example). Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 14:00, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

I have also just found a mention in Murray here "Edith and William would continue to run the Golden Square dojo as owners and instructors until their retirement in 1925, when the training hall finally closed. The building itself was later demolished, leaving no trace of its existence." Lewolka (talk) 14:29, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Citation style

Hello BennyOnTheLoose what do you think about switching to sfn? Lewolka (talk) 14:14, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Happy with that; it should look neater than page numbers inline. Regards, 14:17, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Great I'll start with Godfrey Lewolka (talk) 14:54, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Bodyguard section title

I find the title of this section misleading as she did not train bodyguards but members of the WSPU's bodyguard unit. I'd like to change it to "Training the WSPU's bodyguard". In My Own Story Emmeline Pankhurst's Autobiography she writes: "The bodyguard and members of the audience vigorously repelled the attack, wielding clubs, batons, poles, planks, or anything they could seize, while the police laid about right and left with their batons" and "I had been surrounded by members of the bodyguard, who hurried me towards the stairs from the platform. The police, however, overtook us, and in spite of the resistance of the bodyguard, they seized me and dragged me down the narrow stair at the back of the hall." Lewolka (talk) 12:31, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Seems a logical change to me. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:56, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, will stop interfering now :) Lewolka (talk) 09:50, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for all your work on the article, Lewolka. I think there are a few bits of tidying that can be done, like amending the bulleted section to prose, which I'll do. If I add any substantially new content I'll ping you. Do you have a case for suffrajitsu.com being a reliable source? It looks like a promotional website for the graphic novels. I've got access to the original article by Garrud via the British Newspaper Archive so that may be a substitute, despite being a primary source. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:28, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello BennyOnTheLoose You are right about suffrajitsu.com I have switched for better sources. Lewolka (talk) 11:22, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Breaking down life section

I have quite expanded the Life section.... it may be worth breaking that content into:

• Early life and Jujutsu training
• Women's suffrage
  • Articles and plays
  • Training the WSPU's bodyguard
• Later life and legacy
• Cultural depictions and memorials

this way it may be easier to work on specific sections but I leave it up to you BennyOnTheLoose, stepping back now! :) Lewolka (talk) 10:40, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

DOB

Hello BennyOnTheLoose The only mention of her date of birth I could find so far is: "On her ninety-fourth birthday, a man named Godfrey Winn came to visit her." here and also: "It was June, 1965. to celebrate her birthday, he brought her a sugary lemon gâteau and his equally saccharine interview with her was printed in the popular magazine, Woman." (Godfrey 2012, p. 99) also: " it was not until June 1965, on Edith Garrud's 93rd birthday, that journalist Godfrey Winn, writing for Woman magazine, approached Edith for an interview " (Kelly, p. 18) "She regaled the journalist, Godfrey Wynn, who brought her a birthday cake" here (Photograph: in Woman, 19 June 1965;). So we only know the month, maybe the original article in Woman has the day if accessible in archives? Regards Lewolka (talk) 14:06, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Lewolka. I took a copy of the original article, and it doesn't say when the actual birthday was as far as I can see. (93rd, not 94th, according to that article: the cake was baked for Garrud who "was about to become ninety-three years young") There are a couple of other statements that don't quite match up with other sources too. If you have wiki-email enabled I can ping something across. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:10, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

It might be 7 April 1872 ("Index entry". FreeBMD. ONS. Retrieved 15 November 2021.). Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:45, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

wow that is a great find! I think the wiki-email thingie should work too thank you :) Lewolka (talk) 20:50, 15 November 2021 (UTC)