Talk:Eddie Giacomin

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The following discussion was taken from Talk:1966-67 NHL season under the Edit War section since it belongs here.

If information is revised so that it does not copy word for word an author's words, it is not copyrighted material. As such every single solitary taking down of my contribution to 1966-67 is vandalism. And every person on this board is guilty of harassment against me as well. I notice on NO OTHER SEASON has anything been taken down. That's proof that it is harassment and threats against me.Corey Bryant 20:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Why do you feel that Eddie Giacomin blowing a 3-1 lead against Boston in a regular season game is noteworthy and encyclopedic? Lots of goalies, including ones better than Fast Eddie, have blown 3-1 leads. This sort of edit isn't even noteworthy enough to be included on Eddie's page here. Some of your edits wouldn't be noteworthy on the season pages, but could be on the player pages. And please, calm down. Patken4 00:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Why is it important to mention that Eddie Giacomin blew a 3-1 lead November 9th, 1966? Because the fans---HIS OWN!!--- were BRUTAL! They threw garbage at him and cursed him. Can you HONESTLY think that a goaltender subjected to such horrible abuse could turn things around and become a winner and record 9 shutouts? Not under normal conditions. That's why it is important for it to be mentioned for the 1966-67 season. And about this business of wordiness: I quote a line from the TV series Perry Mason, episode "The Case of the Witless Witness" in which Perry quotes Judge Daniel Redmond: "If we do not fight for the dignity of truth, we have substituted expediency for justice." Flibirigit, then, is a jerk because his complaint of "wordiness" because the season by season account is FOR events of THAT particular season. It is made, then, to inform the public what happened that particular year. If it is not of quality, it is not worthy to have a season by season account , which I have tried to make every season I have uploaded. Flibirigit only operates on the principle of expedience, not of quality. Corey Bryant 21:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Possibly you're not all that familiar with hockey in particular or sports in general, but incidents of stars overcoming a single mediocre game are uncountable ... never mind from a mere 3-3 tie. Such edits are not remotely encyclopedic, and you've admitted yourself that you're parroting the accounts of other authors, which isn't likely to produce a genuine assessment of the notability of events. It's as if you did a recap of the year 2006 based on the half-dozen daily headlines Comcast produces, which today includes such timeless news flashes like "Family Leaves Baby at Toys-R-Us" and "Online Vote Reveals Spears Is Worst Dog Owner," surely classic events over which historians will be thrilled centuries from now. In any event, we don't merely disagree with your assessment, so far we are doing so unanimously. Finally, you are aware, I hope and trust, that Wikipedia forbids personal attacks. Ravenswing 22:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I followed the NHL for 30 years from 1967-68 to 1997-98. I'm an expert. Now what can you say to me that can say otherwise? Hockey history is my specialty. I ought to be the National Hockey League's official historian.Corey Bryant 20:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

To expand on what Ravenswing wrote, there have been many instances of fans of a particular team booing a player on their team, even star athletes. Patrick Roy was booed in Montreal. Jaromir Jagr was booed in Pittsburgh. Rare is the player that hasn't been booed a time or two by the home fans. It's simply the fickle nature of fans. We shouldn't document every instance of a player getting poor treatment by fans, unless it is truely noteworthy (such as a fan attacking them) or if it happened throughout the players career there. This Eddie Giacomin incident doesn't really seem all that notable. Looking at Eddie's page, it appears you have added a reference to this game. Forgiving the notibility question of it, it's definately POV:

"Giacomin was impressive in his first month as Rangers goaltender, but soon his inexperience caught up with him and the fans he'd won over turned on him and he was booed by the fans. In his sophomore year, in a game against the Boston Bruins in November, he blew a 3-1 lead in the game's final two minutes and the fans really turned abusive. The fans threw garbage at Eddie and booed him viciously. Eddie was badly shaken, but from there he won games and won back the fans who had turned on him.

If a reference to this incident were to stay on the Giacomin page, you would have to make it less POV and cut it down. I would also suggest you finding other incidents if they occurred. Look at the Mike Schmidt page, a player who is rather famous for not always getting along with the Philly fans, for a guide as to how to incorporate this into Giacomin's page. Regardless, I don't see it deserving of any mention on the 66-67 page. As for your other comments, I'll just repeat Ravenswing's comments above; no personal attacks. Patken4 23:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The Ranger fans were VERY abusive to Eddie Giacomin on November 9th, 1966. One beer bottle exploded only ten feet from him. Corey Bryant 20:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

If you can source that a beer bottle landed 10 feet from him, then it can be included on this article. However, that still means the wording has to be changed to be less POV. In addition, I still don't see how this event is notable enough to be included on the season page. Take a look at the Matt Hollowell article on fans interferring in a game as an example of how this should be written. Patken4 22:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Adding cleanup tag

Wow ... this article is a positive mess, and a player like Giacomin deserves better. I'll try to find time to spruce it up myself, but with the holidays ... Ravenswing 23:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

There, I managed it myself between making gingerbread cookies (no lie!). The one thing I'd like to see is that reference placed in proper format or else cut. Ravenswing 03:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Stan Fischler in Heroes of Pro Hockey cites a soda bottle exploding 10 feet from Giacomin in the November 9th, 1966 game, but Eddie, A Goalie's Story by Hugh Delano says a beer container.

Then add it in. Keep in mind, any edit would need to be NPOV and fairly short (no more than a sentence), since to this point all that can be found is the one incident. I can remember a baseball thrown by a drunk fan from last year narrowly missing Jacque Jones. There is no mention of the incident on his page, yet it probably deserves a small mention. Figure out a way it can be worked in. Patken4 22:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Eddie: A Goalie's Story by Hugh Delano Chapter 8 "The Night they threw Garbage at a goalie in the Garden"

"The ugly noise started in the seats high above Madison Square Garden ice. At first it was muffled and distant. But then the rumbling of hostile, angry boos grew louder and louder until it became a deafening roar. It seemed as though every voice in the old arena was booing in collective rage and disapproval.

"Suddenly, without warning, the first missile came hurtling down from the gallery at the Ninth Avenue end of the building. A beer container hit the ice and splattered its foamy liquid near the Ranger goal.

"It was the beginning of one of the most vile and cruel demonstrations of spectator abuse against an athlete in New York sports history.

"It was November 9, 1966, a night that will live in infamy for Eddie Giacomin for the rest of his life.

"Apple cores. Orange peels. Paper cups. Popcorn boxes. Eggs. Coins. Shredded programs. Rolled-up newspapers. All were among the debris raining down toward the forlorn figure standing in front of the Ranger goal...

"...Catcalls, jeers, and boos echoed through the arena. A banana peel and assorted fruit and missiles hit the ice. The fans cursed Giacomin and shouted obscenities at him.

"The Bruins had scored twice in the final 89 seconds to tie the game 3-3 in a game New York should have won. "...and now they were throwing garbage at him.

"The Rangers were in last place with a 2-5-2 record and it was all Eddie's fault.

"He wasn't even supposed to be playing against Boston. He had come off the bench to replace Cesare Maniago. New York's starting goaltender had stopped John McKenzie's shot with his chin and had to leave the game for stitches."

Now how about ordering the book on interlibrary loan or buy it through www.abebooks.com and read it for yourself, for heaven's sake.Corey Bryant 21:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Yet this is still an event that only justifies a maximum of one sentence. If you want add a sentence in on it, do it. As I have said, lots of other athletes and coaches have been attacked by fans. Chad Kreuter had his hat stolen from him while he sat in the bullpen of Wrigley Field, Mike Curtis tackled a fan while he ran on the field, Tom Gamboa was physically attacked by fans, Al Arbour was showered with debris, Randy Myers was attacked by a fan on the mound after giving up a home run, etc. There are simply many incidents where fans have attacked players on the field of play. Giacomin's experience is certainly not the worst to have happened by a long shot. Perhaps this incident would be best placed at List of violent spectator incidents in sports. Patken4 23:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I quite agree. We don't need to read squat here (although the bio of a prominent goalie such as Giacomin's worth reading in its own right), because we're not disputing that the incident happened, however much the various commentators disagree on the details. We disagree on the notability of the incident. In a 200+ page biography, there's plenty of room to dwell on an incident like this. This article doesn't have (nor shouldn't have) 200 sentences. What about this incident is particularly noteworthy, so much so that it was worth a full third of the space of the article of a Hall of Fame goaltender who had a twenty year long professional career? Ravenswing 22:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)