Talk:Eccles, Greater Manchester

Article fix requests

The article could benefit from a uniform presentation. It drifts between history and the current situation without clear separation. The article needs to say what the town is today, and how it got that way.

For example, the original Manchester Ship Canal was replaced (but when?) by another aqueduct (but is it still there?) Similarly, it was an important industrial center, but now, what is it?

There's some dicey history: "Eccles first appears in 1200"? Does that mean the town didn't exist before then? Statements such as "The early history appears to have been uneventful" are vague -- Does that mean no battles were fought there? Nothing notable happened in the town until the 16th century? Or when?

It would be interesting to know why the Home Secretary abolished a celebration.

The "Toponymy" section needs rewriting. (Or deletion.) Why would one particular town be named for its church...when many towns had churches? What were the Anglo-Saxons doing -- renaming a town that already had a name? In answer to this: even when Christianity became the dominant religion of England, not every town or settlement had a church. This was the case even into the 17th century CE. So an actual church building would indeed be a noticable feature. This doesn't confirm or contradict the theory that the place name originated as a late or sub-Roman Christian community.

Although probably no one questions the first railway accident happened there, statements such as Eccles having the first motorised fire engine seem...somewhat surprising...and could use a citation.

24.130.18.213 (talk) 08:59, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to request the pronunciation. Does it rhyme with freckles? 38.115.185.13 (talk) 15:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)HelenChicago

Yes Parrot of Doom 15:21, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Are the Dark Drab pictures supposed to be ironic?

I'm from Canada and always wanted to visit Manchester, ...was in London but never made it up to Manchester.

Over the many many years since, I've heard many haters from the U.K. blab on about the drabness and desolation of Manchester and surrounding area. I'm guessing the pictures posted here are meant to support these ides?

Get off your arses get out out there and take some pictures on a bright day, so we can see some of those Gorgeous Industrial/ Victorian buildings...Especially the town hall...what's up with that dark picture?

Eccles is in Salford, not Manchester. ;-)

I take your point though, those pictures do look a bit grim. I'm sure we could do better. --Malleus Fatuorum 02:26, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The pictures were taken under the prevailing light conditions on the day. I'm looking out of the window now, the weather is no different. Unless someone pays me some money to cover my costs, I'm not going to take more. Mind you this is a collaborative project, you could always take some pictures yourself... Parrot of Doom (talk) 09:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

anything?

"The early history of Eccles appears to have been uneventful." Wasn't there a sign that read "Before 1745 absolutely nothing of interest happened here." LOL Derekbd (talk) 11:09, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Demography and Population data

Just as a quick query - there's a load of demographic data using addition for all the council wards combined. Wouldn't it be easier to use the Urban Sub-division (settlement) data, where everything for the town of Eccles is in one place? It would still be interesting to leave the ward-based data in there as well to compare areas of the town to each other.

I've also updated the population table to use the Urban Subdivision data for post-1971 censuses. Fingerpuppet (talk) 11:46, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

That sounds good to me - I've come up with population figures by adding the 3 wards of Eccles constituency together but frankly I'm out of my depth on these matters as I barely understand the geography and politics of it. Its all a bit of a mystery to me. Do I have the figures I entered in the table right? Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the data table's right, but I suspect we'll need to truncate it back to 1901.

What data should we put into the Demography section for the whole town? There's obviously total resident population (and by gender) as well as topics like age structure, ethnic groups, marital status, religion, economic activity, industry of employment, qualifications, travel to work etc etc etc. Fingerpuppet (talk) 13:00, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I was going to use national statistics information and add such information into the Economy section under the population table (this was recommended to me in an FAC review but it conflicts with other city articles that have such data in Demography). I have added a fair bit of information from the Salford City Council Ward Profile documents already, and will add a table comparing ethnicity/religion. Parrot of Doom (talk) 13:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks for your edits - it's more than I can do. I'll leave the table open for a bit just in case I find any more statistics that can be used, if not I'll truncate it to 1901-2001. Parrot of Doom (talk) 16:40, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

No problem - I'm not finished yet! I just need better access to some census tables than I can get from my current location and I'll add more overall data for the whole town. It might take me a couple of days, though. Fingerpuppet (talk) 16:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm looking to do a "Eccles compared" box, and to me the most logical comparisons are Eccles (the town) to the GMUA to England & Wales, as they're all available in the same set of data. Now, I notice that the other GM "compared" boxes are to the relevant borough - so do people think that I should follow that convention or go with my own thoughts? Fingerpuppet (talk) 07:55, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

notable peopl

• Mayo Clinic founder William Worrall Mayo was born in Eccles.
• Mathematician, astronomer and atmospheric scientist Professor Sydney Chapman, FRS (1888-1970) was born in Eccles
• Mathematician Professor Nick Higham, FRS grew up in Eccles
• Littlewoods Founder John Moores was born in Eccles

I've put this here while the GAC is pending, I'll reinsert them when I find out more. Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:11, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Roman Eccles

"The village may have been founded during the Diocletianic Persecution in the early fourth century, by refugees from Manchester (Mamucium)."

Do we have anyone later than Johnshton who addresses the possible Roman origins of Eccles? Recent (2000s) excavation on the vicus (civilian settlement) at Manchester has revealed that it was abandoned by the mid-3rd century (unusually the fort outlived the civilian settlement). This more recent research makes Johnston's theory of Eccles Roman origins sound unlikely. Unless the "refugees" were soldiers, which also seems unlikely as Mithras was far more popular in the Roman army than Christianity. Also, the penalty for desertion was death. Nev1 (talk) 15:10, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Good books on the area aren't forthcoming. I've looked around the local libraries and found very little except what is already here. There may be more at Salford's main library (wherever that is). Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:27, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, what I've said pretty much constitutes original research - although I think the latest research effectively disproves Johnston's theory - so we'll just have to go with what the available sources say. Nev1 (talk) 18:43, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

If you have a link to the Roman find, you could add a line that effectively disputes the claim (or casts doubt upon it) and that wouldn't be original research. Is this related to the dig that has been going on near the Medlock? I saw something of it on the telly a while back, people were getting very excited about a new find that confirmed something-or-other (can't think of the right word but I do find it interesting all the same!) Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:48, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I think you're probably thinking of the Roman altar (pagan, late 1st century) that was found recently in central Manchester. According to Gregory (page 190 in the book Gregory, Richard (ed) (2007). Roman Manchester: The University of Manchester's Excavations within the Vicus 2001–5. Oxford: Oxbow Books. ISBN 978-1-84217-271-1. {{cite book}}: |first= has generic name (help)) the civilian settlement was probably abandoned by the mid-3rd century. In fairness, Manchester has turned up potentially some of the earliest evidence of Christianity in Britain: a Roman Sator square. I'll add something to the article. Nev1 (talk) 19:10, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Done. What do you think of that? Nev1 (talk) 19:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Looks good to me, and allows people the opportunity to research the matter for themselves, rather than leaving them with incorrect info (which may have been the case). Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:41, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Eccles, Greater Manchester/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Starting review.Pyrotec (talk) 21:21, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Initial review

Having read the article through twice, I consider that the article is of the necessary standard to attain GA. It is comprehensive, wide ranging, well illustrated and well referenced. However, there are a few (not many) minor errors/inconsistencies that need to be addressed.

I will leave the lead until last.Pyrotec (talk) 18:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

• Textiles and the Industrial revolution - a very adequate section, seems to cover much of the ground, could be expanded, but that might unbalance the article. So, possibly no change needed at present.

• Post-industrial history -

• This is a bit of a 'dog's dinner'. The first sentence is about decline of the textile industry in 20th century. The second sentence is about the Bridgewater foundry ceasing in 1940 and then becoming an ROF; and the ROF closing in the 1980s and the site becoming a business park. Which seems OK, but it's not quite what the reference states. The company lost its locomotive export trade in the inter-war period, reverted back to engineering, and went into liquidation six months after the works had become an ROF! The second para is all about the 2004-16 Unitary development plan.

I must admit it has been very difficult finding information to fill this section. I have read unreliable sources that confirm what you write, but couldn't really put that into the article, so I left it a little bit vague. There aren't many books on the history of Eccles, and trying to find modern history on the place has been very difficult. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• I would presume to move the last 80 years of the Bridgewater Foundry/ROF Patricroft into an Industrial rather than a post-industrial section, but that makes this section even smaller. There was a Patricroft TMD - steam shed if you prefer - that seems to have gone without appearing.

I have no information on this, any books covering this weren't in the local history section when I went to Eccles library. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I have Cantrell (2005), so I can do that one; but I have nothing on steam sheds other than I remember seeing adverts for books & dvd's. Is there anything with "search inside" on amazon?.Pyrotec (talk) 09:44, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

• Governance -  DonePyrotec (talk) 10:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

• ref 31 does not support any of this first paragraph, its a glossary of terms.

I could link directly to the correct page but doing so doesn't give the reader any means of navigating back to the main page of the source, so I've changed the title of the reference so the reader knows how to find the information. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:02, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• ref 32 uses the term Eccles neighbourhood area, whereas the article states Eccles area. It's not clear what the distinction (if any) is between Eccles and Eccles neighbourhood area.

The article is about both Eccles, Eccles Parish, and the Eccles area. I think 'neighbourhood area' means pretty much the same thing as 'administrative area' - Barton and Winton were part of the municipal borough of Eccles (which no longer exists) and the Local Board of Health. I've tried to make mention of the differences where I can (Wards for instance) but I must admit it can be very confusing to keep track of what is where. I would summarise that 'Eccles area' can be considered to be the total area covered by all three wards. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:10, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• Geography -

• is there a colliery at Patricroft, or should it be there was a colliery at Patricroft?

Deleted that bit. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:02, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I was not objecting to its presence, merely the "tense" of the grammar. I have an acceptable published ref (with a not very good index) that states that there was a coal pit a Patricroft and we (I) have: the landowner's name, the engineer's name, the initial depth, the coal seam it was intended to work, what else was worked; but not the date of closure (it might have been 1930s, 1950s, or even earlier).Pyrotec (talk) 11:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

• WP:lead -  Done.Pyrotec (talk) 09:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The lead is rather "thin". The first and last paragraphs are possibly OK, but have some scope for expansion. About a third of the middle one appears to be "padding" about the Liverpool & Manchester Railway, and possibly may not reflect what the article says. The L&MR, itself only occupies a minor part of the Transport section. There is no mention of the 1974 reorganisation, which is how and when Eccles became part of the City of Salford. Overall, the lead could be improved. Pyrotec (talk) 20:22, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll have to do this on Sunday, unless someone else does it before me. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:19, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Nice lead.Pyrotec (talk) 09:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

• Climate

Also, some info on climate is needed. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 19:35, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

"It always rains in Manchester" - Well spotted, I missed that one.Pyrotec (talk) 19:39, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Climate data can be found in the 'further information' link under the Geography section. There isn't any unique data for Eccles so I prefer not to include it. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:18, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but climate data, if only a short paragraph, is standard for city articles. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 21:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Eccles is a part of the city of Salford and City of Salford, a Good Article, does not have a climate section/subsection; on the other hand Manchester, a Featured Article, does. I can understand the arguments for not including climate in the article; and if it is not intended to go for WP:FAC its possibly OK at GA level. Just because it is a requirement of cities (and UKgeo) this article can still make GA without climate, even if cities regrade it as a B-class cities article. On the other hand a straight copy and paste from the Manchester or Greater Manchester articles involves a trivial amount of effort. Interestingly the GM data comes from the Met Office at Manchester Airport, which I think is a good 30 miles from Eccles, so it might not be representative of the Salford/Manchester conurbation. As there are still outstanding "deficiencies" above under consideration, this topic is still open for debate.Pyrotec (talk) 07:22, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I have added a sentence on climate, drawing parrallels with the rest of Greater Manchester, although the nearest weather station is at Manchester Airport (a little over 10 miles away, not 30!). I think that should be enough for Greater Manchester articles, climate shouldn't change too much within the county, however I will point out to JulianColton that there will be places outside the county where climate data is unavailable and a comprimise such as this will probably be difficult to reach. WP:UKCITIES (the guidleine for writing about UK settlements which is more relevant than any UK:CITIES guidelines) says "A note/section on the settlement's climate (where figures are available)". Nev1 (talk) 11:43, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I should mention that I added climate data having done the same for Worsley before seeing Parrot of Dooms' objections here. I did it because the climate won't change dramatically in the space of 10 miles, however if PoD feels it should not be in the article, I will happily remove the information. Nev1 (talk) 11:52, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Hey it isn't my article, it belongs to everyone :) Its just my preference really but I certainly won't object if anyone else wants to add anything. My feelings are that I'd only add such information if it was specific to the area. Someone somewhere probably collates such data, but I haven't ever looked for it. Parrot of Doom (talk) 20:44, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I've signed off Worsley for GA, so Nev1's addition is acceptable to me as the "reviewer"; but I can understand the resons for not including it. I'm not going to fail it a GA for lack of met data, but that might cause difficults for some projects accepting it as GA-class. I've giving it a  Done, with or without the data.Pyrotec (talk) 09:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

main review

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

I'm clearing this article for GA as it meets the necessary requirements.Pyrotec (talk) 19:22, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

General Universal Stores?

In the Economy section, we have General Universal Stores. Doesn't this mean Great Universal Stores? If so, Shop Direct Group and Shaw National Distribution Centre would possible warrent a mention for greater clarity (as well as WP:BTW). --Jza84 |  Talk  23:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Good spot, I've changed that. I'm a bit too tired to comment on the rest so I'll leave that for tomorrow. Parrot of Doom (talk) 23:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Landmarks

I think some thought should be given to including a small section about “Eccles Cross” – both the physical stone cross and the wider meaning of “on Eccles cross”, a phrase that I was brought up with and take to mean somewhere in the immediate environs of the cross (the cross being a meeting place at the very heart of the town). I understand the present stone cross is a replacement for the original one that was damaged during the Second World War (by a lorry hitting it in the blackout rather than by a bomb!) but this is merely a story I heard through the family and I was hoping for some more definitive detail in this Wikipedia article.

A further minor point – Morrison’s store is described as being “just outside the town centre.” I think that by any measure it is very much inside the town centre, not least that it is just across the road (50 metres away using Google Earth measuring tool) from the afore mentioned Eccles Cross.

109.154.79.237 (talk) 17:41, 1 July 2010 (UTC) DJH

Eccles cross sounds interesting. I contributed much of the content toward this article and so I may have come across it, I can't remember. What you need to do is visit the library and have a look through the local history section. If you can find mention of it in one of the books there, make a note of that book's title, and the page number(s) that mention the cross, and then add what you read to the article. If you're not sure how to do it in Wikipedia, I can sort out the citation and book references for you. Parrot of Doom 18:02, 1 July 2010 (UTC)