Talk:Easter Rising/Archive 5

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"British rule"

NOTE: Disruption by socks of User:HarveyCarter. Per WP:DENY, do not respond to this banned user. Binksternet (talk) 20:57, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I think the phrase in the introduction is misleading, since it implies that Ireland was not represented in the Union. In reality there had been many Irish MPs at Westminster since the 1800 Act of Union. I think it would be more accurate to say that the rebels in 1916 were trying to break up the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. In any case to say they were trying to end "British rule" is wrong as Westminster had passed the Home Rule Bill in 1914. (92.7.31.106 (talk) 15:36, 20 March 2013 (UTC))

Common use in the sources is British Rule. Please self-revert ----Snowded ^TALK 15:51, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The sources are using the wrong phrase. It was UK rule, not British rule. Even to say Westminster rule would be wrong, since the Home Rule Bill had been passed on 18th September 1914 and was due to come into effect as soon as World War I had ended. (92.7.31.106 (talk) 16:01, 20 March 2013 (UTC))

We work from the sources here not from your personal opinion. Now revert or your blocking from editing is a foregone conclusion ----Snowded ^TALK 16:40, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Fourth revert in a day - beyond a joke. Brocach (talk) 17:01, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Nevertheless it is more accurate to say that the rebels were aiming to end the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Ireland was not actually "ruled" by Britain, there was a parliament representing both Great Britain and Ireland at Westminster. With the passage of the Third Home Rule Bill in September 1914 Ireland was given self-government which was due to come into effect as soon as World War I had ended. Therefore any claims of "British rule" had already ended. (92.7.31.106 (talk) 18:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC))

Ireland was nevertheless ruled from London, despite the expressed wishes of its voters. This would have continued under Home Rule with a limited amount of powers being devolved. Jdorney (talk) 21:32, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

There was never a referendum on Ireland leaving the UK, so it is impossible to say whether Irish people were against the parliament being situated in London. (92.7.20.165 (talk) 17:36, 21 March 2013 (UTC))

In every election since the extension of the franchise to c.30% of adult males in 1884, the vast majority of Irish seats in the House of Commons were won by a party campaigning on that single issue - as you choose to put it, of the Parliament being situated in London - or as they put it, Home Rule. Fairly clear. On top of that, as other contributors have noted, 'British rule' in Ireland was not by the British Parliament but by three British appointees - vis the Lord Lieutenant, The Chief Secretary for Ireland and the Under Secretary - who together formed the Irish executive based in Dublin Castle. Who had control over policing, taxes etc and who would have continued to have it under Home Rule. They, not Irish MPs ruled the country. Hence British rule in Ireland is simply clarity. On top of that, 'ending the United Kingdom' is misleading as the rebels of 1916 had no interest in the future of the rest of the United Kingdom, only of Ireland as independent state. Jdorney (talk) 23:24, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

People vote for political parties for all sorts of reasons. There was never a referendum in Ireland on breaking up the UK. (92.7.4.80 (talk) 14:47, 22 March 2013 (UTC))

You're being disengenuous. The Home Rule Party was a single issue party - dedicated precisely to that end. Besides, there wasn't a referndum because the British government did not hold one. There is no getting away from the fact that Ireland was governed quite differently from the rest of the UK - governed by an unelected body in Dublin Castle - and that Iirsih voters in every election for 30 years had voiced their diapproval of this. Jdorney (talk) 21:39, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Generally speaking, I think 92.7.31.106's turn of phrase is more neutral. "British rule" has certain connotations that, while we may be used to it, are not entirely neutral when held up to the light.

I've commented further on my talk page --RA (talk) 22:57, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Ireland was "ruled" from Dublin Castle. The Lord Lieutenant, the Chief Secretary and the Under-Secretary were British appointees who constituted the Irish government. It's a fallacy to say that Parliament "rules" a country. Parliament passes statutes – that's not the same thing. It's also entirely incorrect to say that the aim of republicans was to "end the United Kingdom". Republicans never acknowledged the United Kingdom; their aim was to end the British connection. Scolaire (talk) 23:15, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Also, the Home Rule Act 1914 did not end British rule in Ireland, because the Home Rule Act was never implemented. The situation in 1916 was exactly the same as that in 1801. Scolaire (talk) 23:19, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Concur and all references I have ever read use "British Rule". ----Snowded ^TALK 23:22, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Depends on your references. Though you concur with what Scolaire said despite the many fallacies in what he said?

1. The IP did not say "to end the United Kingdom", which would involve the dissolution of the entire entity. The IP said "to end the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" - which would only involve the removal of Ireland from it - so republicans did want to it to end.
2. The UK was part of the British connection in Ireland as the island was part of the UK state. The other part of the connection being the monarchy. So to end the British connection you must also end the UK of GB and I, which they must acknowledge in the first place if they want to rebel and remove it.
3. How does parliament not rule a country? In the UK the monarch is the ruler, but it's a constitutional monarchy that essentially means parliament rules the country in their place. So parliament de facto rules the UK.
4. What Irish government? Sounds too much like parliament. I'd say a more appropriate term would be administration.

I can understand the IP's concerns and agree with RA. The wording does seem very non-neutral and nationalistic in tone. A better wording would be "the aim of which was Irish independence from the United Kingdom". Mabuska ^(talk) 00:00, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

If the sources support that wording mabuska, but everything I have ever read uses British Rule ----Snowded ^TALK 02:35, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I'd be very surprised if every source ever written on the subject used the term "British rule" and absolutely no other. The fact is "British rule" is sort of vague. "Separation", "independence", and other words have been used, and I think are pretty appropriate as well. I think this is making something of a mountain out of a molehill, but if we can find a different term that is mutually agreeable and can be reliably sourced I see no reason to insist on the current phrasing. -R. fiend (talk) 03:25, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

If you think that "British rule" is sort of vague, tell it to

• Max Caulfield: "Their objective, stripped of all qualifications and reservations, was the end of English rule" (The Easter Rebellion, p. 13),
• Michael Foy and Brian Barton: "...in an attempt to overthrow British rule in Ireland" (The Easter Rising, p. 1),
• Charles Townsend: "[Patrick Pearse] drew deeply on the history of Irish resistance to British rule" (Easter 1916, p. 1),
• Michael McNally and Peter Dennis: "1914: September – ...IRB decides upon an uprising against British Rule" (Easter Rising 1916, p. 16), and
• Fearghal McGarry: "[Dublin Castle] functioned as the administrative heart of British rule in Ireland" (The Rising, p. ?).

Those are the five main sources used in this article, but see how often the phrase is used in the first ten hits alone of a Google Books search. Now, see how often "United Kingdom" features in connection with the aim of the Rising or its leaders in this Google Books search. Not once! Of course "separation" or "independence" would be an appropriate compromise if a compromise were needed, but a compromise between well-sourced content and unsourced content is neither needed nor desirable. Scolaire (talk) 09:19, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

In fact, on reflection, "separation" or "independence" would not be a good compromise, because the question would immediately arise: separation from Britain or separation from the United Kingdom? We've had that argument before and failed to come up with something that was "mutually agreeable". No, best to stick with wording that is stable and verifiable and neutral in terms of WP:NPOV. Note that NPOV is concerned only with representing all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. Scolaire (talk) 11:04, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

There absolutely no doubt that many sources will refer to "British rule" in Ireland. That doesn't mean we have to use the same terminology. There's a fair argument to be made against it and other turns of phrase can be used to say the same thing. For example:

• "All of Ireland was, at the time, part of the United Kingdom. The Rising was mounted with the aim of establishing an independent Irish Republic..."
• "The Rising was mounted with the aim of establishing an Irish Republic independent of the Great Britain..."
• "The aim of the Rising was to establish an separate Irish Republic outside of the British Empire..."

WP:V does not pin us down on the language we use. --RA (talk) 11:23, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I think that's a fair point. Sure, most of the sources at some point use the phrase "end British rule", but that doesn't mean we're committed to it, or that it's the best. It might be an easier shorthand for their aim, but like it or not, it isn't as specific as something like "establish an Irish Republic", which I'm sure I can find plenty of references to once I have my books in front of me. Also, I wouldn't worry too much about a future edit war over whether we say "Britain" or "the UK". That seems absurdly nitpicky to me, and the sort of thing only the most tiresome, partisan acts would make a huge fuss over. I think most of them are gone now, and editing articles on Irish political issues is going to be less of a process that makes everyone want to put a bullet in their own heads. Most people here I think are more concerned with writing a quality, accurate article than pushing an agenda. That, certainly, is a pleasant change. -R. fiend (talk) 15:58, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Establishing an independent Irish State or ending British Rule would both fit (I am pretty sure) the balance of sources which we do have to rely on. Breaking up the UK, I don't think so. ----Snowded ^TALK 16:20, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree that "trying to break up the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" is misleading, even if it is accurate in a sense. They were trying to break up the union of Ireland and Britain (and hence the "unity" of the "kingdom") but that phrasing does make it seem like they were trying "smash the state", or destroy the UK entirely, so yes, I agree that phrasing is certainly poor, and should not be considered. -R. fiend (talk) 18:59, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. --RA (talk) 10:29, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Great Britain and the UK are completely different things. The phrase "British rule" is not only wrong but also misleading as it implies Ireland was not represented in parliament. In reality Ireland had the same representation as England, Wales and Scotland. Since the UK in 1916 included all of Ireland it is correct to say that breaking up the UK was exactly what the rebels were trying to achieve. (92.7.20.165 (talk) 17:36, 21 March 2013 (UTC))

Ireland was ruled by British men in 1916. The Parliament that ruled Ireland was the British Parliament in London, elected in the main by British men living in Britain, although Irish men were also permitted to vote to send to the Parliament in Britain a few men prepared to swear allegiance to the British monarch before they could sit in the British Parliament to represent Irish men. Ireland was under British rule. Brocach (talk) 22:00, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Ireland was "ruled" (governed) by British and Irish men in 1916. The parliament in London was the UK parliament, elected by the British and Irish. It was the Irish monarch - George V was King of Ireland as well as King of Great Britain. Ireland was under UK rule, just like Great Britain. (92.7.4.80 (talk) 14:50, 22 March 2013 (UTC))

You mean like England is now under British rule? 141.6.11.21 (talk) 08:21, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

A few points:

1. The original edit and the initial discussion were not about making the article "more neutral" or "more accurate". They were about introducing a specific UK-centered point of view: that Ireland was an integral part of the United Kingdom and, by extension, that the Volunteers and ICA rose up in rebellion against their own lawfully-constituted government. This is a valid point of view, but it does not represent the scholarly consensus. The scholarly consensus, as I have shown, is accurately represented by the current wording. We shouldn't be rushing into "what will we replace this with?" before we have satifactorily answered the question, "does this need to be replaced?"
2. Strange as it may sound to 21st-century ears, the aim of the Rising was not "establishing an Irish Republic". It was not about establishing anything; it was about ending something – foreign domination. The Proclamation is headed "Poblacht na hÉireann...Irish Republic", but it states the object of the Rising quite explicitly: "Ireland, through us, summons her children to her flag and strikes for her freedom." Freedom from what? From British rule! It can not have any other possible meaning, especially in the context of the rest of the document ("The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government" etc.).
3. I've said it before and I'll say it again: articles are improved by making productive changes to the article proper, not by tinkering with the lead. Tinkering with the lead only leads to further tinkering, until the lead becomes unreadable.

For these reasons, I am opposed to any and all of the changes suggested so far. I am not opposed to discussion, and I will not oppose any genuine and obvious improvement to the article, including a change in the lead. But I don't believe there is anything to be gained by continuing to suggest tweaks to the tweaks, when there is no consensus that the thing needs to be tweaked at all. Scolaire (talk) 08:52, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

How about "The Rising was mounted by Irish republicans with the aims of establishing an independent Irish republic at a time when the United Kingdom was heavily engaged in World War I." - it's more a contraction and swapping of a phrase or two of what is already in the lede and covers independence from government and crown. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:01, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Also how does any source on the subject not back up anything in this suggestion? That was the point of the rising and the UK was heavily engaged in WWI - nothing controversial or hard to hold up to the sources. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:04, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

In fact what is in the article now: " The Rising was mounted by Irish republicans with the aims of ending British rule in Ireland and establishing an Irish Republic at a time when the British Empire was heavily engaged in World War I." - looks like it has been suggestively worded to give the impression that Ireland was a colonial possession of the British Empire - when we all know that it was not - it was an integral part of the state at the center of that Empire - the United Kingdom. What is in the article I'm taking as being intentional denial of the facts of the situation with attempts to portray Ireland as being a colonial occupied territory in the manner of South Africa or Kenya. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:06, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

There is also an even amount of editors who think it is flawed and those who think it isn't. So there is a problem that needs sorted whether or not certain editors want to be in denial on that as well. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:08, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's true. The number who think it's flawed is small. It seems there are more who are open to considering different wording, but that's not the same thing. -R. fiend (talk) 14:32, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

It would be better to say that the rebels wanted to end the political union between Great Britain and Ireland, since the phrase "British rule" is biased, inaccurate, and misleading. (92.7.4.80 (talk) 15:12, 22 March 2013 (UTC))

I assume the supporters of what is there now are being quiet hoping to let the discussion die off? I raised some good points, and a very good proposal. Or is the silence to avoid having to deal with the issue? If they wish to remain quiet and fail to acknowledge that there is a problem to solve then i'll take that as silent consent for my proposal made at 12:01, 22 March 2013. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:23, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

In fact it is only the "British rule" part that is disputed, I see no reasonable reason as to why British Empire can't be swapped for United Kingdom to make it more accurate and help tone down the colonial tone of the statement. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:25, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

The proposal I suggested at 12:01, 22 March 2013: ""The Rising was mounted by Irish republicans with the aims of establishing an independent Irish republic at a time when..."" - I think is a good one seeing as several editors are open to different wording to make it sound more neutral and this one does just that with nothing that can be argued as not being true or needing further sources to prove. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:36, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

The phrase "British rule" should certainly be removed. Westminster tried to give Ireland Home Rule before World War I, but Ulster unionists made that impossible by importing weapons from Germany and threatening to start a civil war. (92.7.25.152 (talk) 16:19, 27 March 2013 (UTC))

"British rule" is entirely accurate and I don't hear any chorus of approval for what Mabuska assures us is his/her very good idea. I would now like to invite 92:7... to disclose their previous username. Brocach (talk) 23:39, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, both on the content issue and on the need for some honesty from 92.7 who has obviously edited before. ----Snowded ^TALK 23:50, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

The trials/ Executions

There doesn't seem to be much on the trials/ Court Martials. On a connected article there was some suggestion that given the gravity of the offences, (these were after all capital cases- so these were important trials), a question arises whether the correct court martial process was followed. If true it raises a rather interesting question in British Law- were the rebels tried by a competent court martial? (If not their "trials" and subsequent "executions", were no more legal in British law than the Declaration of the Irish Republic itself- that would be some irony. In any case it is interesting and significant legally since Roger Casemont had a conventional jury trial.

what about the lengths of the trials, the prosecution arguments, and defence arguments. Who were the prosecuting lawyers, who were the defence lawyers- (indeed were there any?) Are there trial transcripts, if so there must be content relevant to the article. If not, well that's significant too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.49.142 (talk) 00:04, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Martial law was declared in Dublin on Easter Tuesday, and in the rest of the country later in the week, so trial by court martial was appropriate. Casement was tried in London on a charge of high treason, which is why his trial was different. There's at least one book, From Behind a Closed Door: Secret Court Martial Records of the 1916 Easter Rising, that gives details of the courts martial. If you could get hold of that, you could certainly add the content. Scolaire (talk) 14:57, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

The rising was pro-German

It is absolutely essential the article mentions the fact that the proclamation praised the Germans as the rebels' "gallant allies", because this proves the uprising was treasonable. (92.12.28.15 (talk) 14:59, 19 September 2010 (UTC))

So why was only Casement convicted of treason? Most sources see the various publications issues by Pearse and co during the Rising as fiction anyway. The text you added was not even close to being neutral either. O Fenian (talk) 16:45, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Well they didn't want to execute de Valera because he was a US citizen. Martin Gilbert's book is certainly a reliable source and in any case the fact that the proclamation praised the Germans as their allies needs to be mentioned. (92.11.115.198 (talk) 19:03, 19 September 2010 (UTC))

What does de Valera have to do with anything? Casement was the only person charged with treason. I notice the flowery quote does not mention that hundreds of thousands of Irishmen refused to fight in a foreign war? O Fenian (talk) 19:05, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

De Valera has everything to do with it, since he was one of the leaders of the uprising. The fact that some Irish tried to avoid opposing the enemy does not change the fact that the Easter Rising was openly pro-German. (92.11.115.198 (talk) 19:09, 19 September 2010 (UTC))

Would that be the same de Valera you claimed was pro-Hitler? O Fenian (talk) 19:12, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Huh? (92.11.115.198 (talk) 19:16, 19 September 2010 (UTC))

Mentioning Martin Gilbert is specious, since he is actually directly quoting a single "historian" - Robert Kee. Kee's quote is "It referred to 'gallant Allies in Europe' who were supporting Ireland, thereby blandly dismissing the fact that the flower of Ireland's manhood had been fighting those allies in Europe for the past twenty months". That is not an objective quote, it is flowery, and ignores that far more Irishmen were not willing to fight a foreign war. Pearse expected the Germans to land an expeditionary force to aid the Rising, the "allies" did nothing more than supply arms, which were either pre-war (Howth gun-running) or failed to arrive. The quote of "gallant allies" from a primary source does not accurately detail the facts on the ground, and neither does the biased quote. You have failed to provide a single piece of evidence that any person was charged with treason other than Casement, despite your claims to the contrary. O Fenian (talk) 19:33, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Whether some Irishmen were unwilling to defend themselves from the enemy is irrelevant to the fact that the uprising was vocally pro-German. That is why de Valera had to keep IRA terrorists imprisoned during World War II, since any attack in the north could have been viewed as siding with the Germans and would have given Churchill the excuse he needed to overrun all of the Irish Free State. (92.11.115.198 (talk) 19:37, 19 September 2010 (UTC))

Sources? O Fenian (talk) 15:09, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

You jump from a specious accusation that the Rising was pro-German to an argument about De Valera and World War II. You cannot even seem to remember what you are talking about. My suspicion is that your intention is disruption and that continuing this discussion is a waste of everyone's time. Besides, the Germans never invaded Ireland, never outlawed the people's religion, never murdered Irishmen and women in their homes, did not burn down Cork City. The Brits did all that. So, how were the Germans the enemies of the Irish? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:42, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Let's try to keep this from becoming a political argument and just take a look at the facts. The Proclamation did refer to "gallant allies in Europe" without mentioning Germany by name, but it's pretty clear who they are referring to. How significant this is is subject to debate, but should be completely dismissed without discussion. Also, the rebels did try to get guns and other aid from Germany; the fact that the British were able to prevent isn't relevant to their intent, and does not exonerate them. Comparing those that faced a Court Martial with Casement, who faced a criminal trial, might not be completely valid. I don't know exactly how courts martial in Britain work, so maybe someone with more expertise on this can give input. What exactly were the others charged with? A quick glance through a few books didn't seem to give specifics. Isn't taking up arms against the government a pretty good working definition of treason? I agree that Valera and WWII has nothing to do with this and we should stick to the topic at hand. What do other people have to say about this? R. fiend (talk) 15:47, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

My point, as above, is that while Proclamation may refer to "gallant Allies" Pearse and Connolly may have had a slightly different opinion due to the non-arrival of the expeditionary force. The German aid is mentioned earlier in the article, so I do not see the benefit in quoting a couple of words from the Proclamation for reasons which are now unknown, since the insinuation attached to those words was not added back at the same time. I also recall someone's court martial, which one currently escapes me but I can check later if needed. They totally denied the allegation that they were aiding Germany, their intent was not pro-German but pro-Ireland. O Fenian (talk) 15:52, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is arguing that the purpose of the Rising was to aid Germany, but that isn't relevant. The US didn't fight WWII to aid the Soviet Union, but they were still allies. If this is simply a question of inclusion of a sentence about the proclamation in the section on Easter Monday then fair enough. It looks out of place to me, but it should be discussed on its merits, and shouldn't devolve into an argument about who burned down Cork City or what Dev did during World War II. If some editors think the Germany link is being glossed over and treason should be mentioned directly then that should be discussed as well. -R. fiend (talk) 16:14, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

That is half the problem, the IP editor seemingly believes a flowery quote from Kee makes it treason. O Fenian (talk) 16:18, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, I think their actions make it treason. Are we arguing it isn't? I don't care much. I don't have a horse in this race and I think the whole notion of treason is stupid, but I think rebelling against the government and conspiring with an enemy to do so fits the bill pretty well. Anyway, we're getting off topic again, I guess. The questionable edit is reverted, so I guess we can let the matter rest unless something further is brought up (which wouldn't surprise me). -R. fiend (talk) 16:46, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

The Easter Rising during World War I was clearly just as treasonable as the rebellion of 1798 during the Napoleonic Wars. The "gallant allies" quotation absolutely needs to be in the article. (92.11.242.106 (talk) 20:56, 9 October 2010 (UTC))

The first editor in this thread says the German connection "proves the Rising was treasonable". Is he/she for real? Treasonable to those British and their masterrace anti-Irish colonial claim to rule over our country, I bloody well hope so! The idea that Irish people fighting for Irish freedom could be "treasonable" to the British colonial occupiers is so seriously in breach of Wikipedia NPOV it defies belief that it is being entertained in this article. Irish independence depends upon being "treasonable" to all foreigners who claim a right to rule over us. We have no loyalty to any of them, least of all the British masterrace which has raped our culture and country for centuries. "Treasonable" Jesus! 86.46.17.237 (talk) 21:32, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The uprising was clearly treasonable against the UK during World War I. All of Ireland was part of the UK. (92.11.204.142 (talk) 19:40, 5 February 2014 (UTC))

"... led by schoolteacher and barrister Patrick Pearse ..."

What do others think of this? Clarke and MacDermott did the planning. Of whom, Clarke was the driving force, I believe. And Connolly was the overall military commander. So was the Rising "led" by Pearse? --Tóraí (talk) 12:58, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Pearse was the overall military commander, described in the war buletin as "Commanding in Chief the Forces of the Irish Republic, and President of the Provisional Government". Connolly was the commander of the Dublin forces. It was Pearse who signed the surrender order; Connolly added, "I agree to these conditions for the men only under my own command". So I think, by historical consensus, Pearse was the leader during Easter Week.

I thought, when I saw the heading, that you were going to talk about the description "schoolteacher and barrister". And my immediate reaction was that it could do with being changed. First, he didn't just teach, he owned and ran a school. Second, although he was called to the bar, he only ever tried one case, and it was not notable. Third, he was best known through his work in the Gaelic League, particularly as editor of An Claideamh Soluis. So I think that "led by schoolmaster and Gaelic League activist Patrick Pearse" would be more appropriate. Scolaire (talk) 11:38, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

"Commanding in Chief the Forces of the Irish Republic, and President of the Provisional Government" ... well, you can't argue with that. It was actually, Clarke, more than Connolly, that I was thinking of when posting. That he was the driving force and Pearce was more a public face.

No issue with changing the description, except that I would leave out specifically "Gaelic League activist" and just say "schoolmaster and activist". --Tóraí (talk) 15:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm! Kind of stating the obvious to say that the leader of an uprising was an activist. I've compromised and made it "Irish language activist". As for Clarke, it's true to say that he was the driving force behind the Rising, but he was not a Volunteer leader. The sentence in question is, "Members of the Irish Volunteers — led by..." Scolaire (talk) 22:45, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Six days

Pargraph two of the lead says that the Rising started on 24 April and lasted six days. Paragraph three says it was suppressed after six days. It doesn't matter. 92.xx.xx.xx has deleted the info from the second para several times in the past and has been reverted each and every time, by me and others. We like having it twice. It is useful to have it twice. The context is different and it helps the understanding of each pargraph to have it said each time. Please, just leave it as it is, or open a request for comment. --Scolaire (talk) 17:36, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Seems like a pretty sensible change to me. Or at least a re-phrasing to avoid repeition would be desirable IMO.

"We like having it twice." Who is we? Apart from one revert by You Can Act Like A Man, it looks like you're the only one reverting this change: here, here, here, here.

The history of the text begins when You Can Act Like A Man corrected the phrase in the third paragraph in March 2013. At that time, there was only one mention of "after six days" (i.e. the second paragraph gave a start and end date). The reason for You Can Act Like A Man's correction is because the text previously said "seven" (and then "five") days.

The duplicate wording was added by User:JMD on St. Patrick's Day last year. He/she changed the second paragraph from "the Rising lasted from Easter Monday 24 to Saturday 29 April 1916" to "the Rising began on Easter Monday, 24 April 1916, and lasted for 6 days".

My 2¢, change it back to "the Rising lasted from Easter Monday 24 to Saturday 29 April 1916". No harm in having both date range (in one paragraph) and duration (in another). --Tóraí (talk) 20:13, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

That's okay by me. Scolaire (talk) 23:53, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Done. Thanks, --Tóraí (talk) 09:35, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Tóraí. But what about making it "…the Rising lasted six days, from Easter Monday, 24 April, to Saturday 29 April 1916" ? I originally added "six days" so one didn't have to stop and compare days and months to determine whether this thing lasted days or months or years—a critical part of understanding what the event was. Particularly for Americans not accustomed to day-month ordering, it takes a bit of cognitive work to parse that long string, with holidays and days of the week all part of the mix. Most readers will care that it was a 6-day event, not that it ended on a Saturday. —JMD (talk) 21:59, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

But how many times do we have to say it lasted for six days? The first sentence of the third paragraph says again: "The Rising was suppressed after six days of fighting..." And Monday to Saturday surely isn't that hard to work out ... even for Americans? :-)

I'm happy to support flipping sentences around, though. How about modifying both sentences? The first as you suggest and then re-focus the second on its purpose, as follows:

• "...the Rising lasted for six days, from Easter Monday 24 April to Saturday 29 April 1916."
• "While the Rising was suppressed and its leaders were executed, it succeeded in bringing physical force republicanism back to the forefront of Irish politics."

--Tóraí (talk) 10:48, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

This is why I said at the start that the context is different in the two paragraphs. JMD thinks that stating the duration of the war in the first paragraph is useful (and titles such as Six-Day War suggests that people do like to think in whole numbers), while the point of the following paragraph is that the Rising had a profound impact despite its brevity. How about

• ...the Rising began on Easter Monday, 24 April 1916, and lasted for six days.
• The Rising was quickly suppressed, with Pearse agreeing to an unconditional surrender on Saturday 29 April. Its leaders were...

Scolaire (talk) 11:19, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

That gets a thumbs up from me. --Tóraí (talk) 14:33, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

On reflection, I expanded the third paragraph a bit. A large part of the reason for "six days" recurring in quick succession is that literally nothing was said about the Rising in Dublin between the sentence about its start and the sentence about its suppression. The lead is in serious need of revision to better reflect the article content. Scolaire (talk) 21:21, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Seems clear to me, too. Thanks for working on this! --JMD (talk) 00:00, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Who informed Eoin MacNeill?

Anybody know who informed MacNeill that the manoeuver was going to be a Rising? 79.97.64.240 (talk) 19:01, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, but I forget. Ginger O'Connell and somebody else, I think. Using the right search terms on Google Books should get you the answer. Scolaire (talk) 21:14, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

23 April 1014: Battle of Clontarf

Is there any connection between the Rising's planned date of 23 April, being the same date of the Irish victory at the Battle of Clontarf in 1014AD? 79.97.64.240 (talk) 19:01, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, a religious connection. The Battle of Clontarf was fought on Good Friday (which was unusual because the Peace and Truce of God in theory forbade it), and the Rising was planned for Easter Sunday. But there is no documentary evidence that I know of that the Battle of Clontarf, rather than the Resurrection of Christ, was in the mind of the Rising's planners. Scolaire (talk) 21:14, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Not just British army

The Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police were attacked by the terrorists. The army was sent only because the police could not maintain law and order. (92.11.192.215 (talk) 16:12, 2 February 2014 (UTC))

Already discussed and agreed above - e.g. see Belligerents above. (Also terrorists may not be the most appropriate word!!) Denisarona (talk) 16:42, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Murdering civilians and policemen is terrorism. The RIC and the DMP were both involved in suppressing the uprising, so they should be listed in the infobox. (92.11.192.215 (talk) 17:05, 2 February 2014 (UTC))

So the British army were terrorists? Don't think that'll be going in the article. -R. fiend (talk) 17:46, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

The Irish Volunteers killed civilians and policemen before the army could arrive to restore order. (92.11.192.215 (talk) 18:11, 2 February 2014 (UTC))

My great-uncle was a policeman in Dublin in 1916 and several of his colleagues were killed. I find it offensive that the RIC and DMP are not listed on this site. They were as involved as the army. (92.11.202.180 (talk) 14:58, 3 February 2014 (UTC))

The RIC and DMP were attacked and a few were killed – so too were citizen who tried to stop the Rising – but they were not involved as belligerents, like the army was. In fact, the DMP (as an unarmed force) were pulled off the streets. If your grand-uncle was a policeman in Dublin, he was pulled off the streets during the Rising. --Tóraí (talk) 17:02, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't make any difference. Both the RIC and the DMP were attacked by the terrorists, which makes them belligerents by any definition. My great-uncle was personally under fire on the first day of the uprising. The army was only sent to Dublin because the police could not restore order, and because Lord French thought it was a prelude to a German naval attack. (92.11.202.180 (talk) 18:38, 3 February 2014 (UTC))

Being attacked by terrorists (or defending yourself against murder) does not make you a belligerent. --Tóraí (talk) 19:14, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Of course it does. Every man of the RIC and the DMP knew what to expect when they enlisted. (92.11.202.180 (talk) 19:18, 3 February 2014 (UTC))

I'm sure they did - but I don't think it was that you believe they expected:

The Easter Rising of 1916 brought the police and the public into direct conflict for the first time in decades. Indeed, turn-of-the-century policing in Ireland had been relatively peaceful, save for the Dublin Lock Out of 1913, one of the largest trade union disputes in Ireland. The DMP policed many of those rallies and in August when they attacked a rally two men died. But it would be the Easter Rising that would have greater repercussions for policing in Ireland. While the rising did not have the widespread support of the people, the subsequent executions of the leaders garnered support for the nationalist movement. Lowe describes how the Defence of the Realm Act of 1914 was thereafter used to conduct searches, arrests and disrupt nationalist activities on a scale that had very negative effects for community relations (2002: 81)." — Vicky Conway (2013), Policing Twentieth Century Ireland, London: Routledge, p. 18

So, no, they did not expect to be attacked by terrorists. And definitely not on the scale of the Easter Rising. Just think before you write: the DMP were an unarmed force. Not a counter-terrorist outfit! --Tóraí (talk) 20:22, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

All police officers should be armed at all times. (92.11.202.180 (talk) 21:26, 3 February 2014 (UTC))

92.11.202.180, you have reverted five times in just over 24 hours. This is edit-warring and gaming the system. Please cease and desist. Scolaire (talk) 21:22, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Rebel and civilian casualties

The article combines rebel and civilian casualties: "Rebel and civilian casualties were 318 dead and 2,217 wounded."

This seems odd to me that a belligerent casualties should be combined with civilian casualties. I think they should be separated. Anyone know what the individual numbers were for both? --Tóraí (talk) 17:04, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

It's difficult to say when many of the so-called "civilians" were in fact armed gunmen disguised as civilians. (92.11.202.180 (talk) 21:34, 3 February 2014 (UTC))

Green harp flag with Irish Republic

During the Rising, the tricolour was flown. And a green flag with "Irish Republic" on it, which can be seen here in the post card described as, "A group of officers with the captured rebel flag." Several other flags were carried, including the Starry Plough and the traditional Green Harp flag.

However, numerous sources I've seen say that two flags were raised over the GPO:

• the tricolour; and
• a green harp flag with the words "Irish Republic".

This flag isn't mentioned in the article. The article says the flags raised over the GPO were the tricolor and the "Irish Republic" flag (without a harp). Has anybody ever seen a depiction of the green harp flag with the inscription above?

How should / can we include mention of it?

--Tóraí (talk) 22:13, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what sources you've seen, but as far as I'm aware, no scholarly work has any mention of a green harp flag flying over the GPO (though one may have been flown elsewhere). There was only one "Irish Republic" flag; it's in the National Museum at Collins Barracks and it doesn't have – and couldn't ever have had – a harp on it. Scolaire (talk) 08:18, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Loads mention it. Seriously. But I have never seen a depiction of it. Examples:

"However, orange was only incorporated into the Irish national colours for the first time in 1916 when the tricolour was raised over the GPO in Dublin beside the national green flag with a gold harp, at the start of the Easter Rising." — Neil Jarman (1999), Displaying Faith: Orange, Green and Trade Union Banners in Northern Ireland, Belfast: Institute of Irish Studies Queen's University of Belfast, p. 10

"When O'Kelly returned two flags were raised over the GPO, one a green flag with a harp in the centre and the words Irish Republic in gold and white lettering; the other the green, white and orange tricolor, later to become the flag of independent Ireland." — Siobhán Marie Kilfeather (2005), Dublin: A Cultural History, Oxford: Oxford University Press, p. 181

"The curious crowd gather outside watched while men scrambled over the roof and two flags broke from the flagpoles at its front corners; one an unfamiliar tricolour, orange, white and green, to represent Sinn Fein, and the other green with the Irish harp in gold on it and, underneath, the words Poblach na hÉireann (Irish Republic)." — Plantagenet Somerset Fry; Fiona Somerset Fry (1991), A History of Ireland, London: Psychology Press, p. 286

--Tóraí (talk) 10:29, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Entering discussions with you always serves as a reminder of how careful one has to be when choosing one's words ;-) When I said "scholarly works", I meant works specifically dealing with the Rising, with the Revolution, with early 20th-century Irish nationalism etc. The people you have quoted are not specialists in those subjects. My best guess is that they have read "green flag" in the literature and subconsciously translated it as "green harp flag". With so many books and articles available that deal in detail with the Rising, I would not rely on any of those three as reliable sources. I mean, how much credibility do you give to somebody who writes, "orange, white and green, to represent Sinn Fein"? Scolaire (talk) 11:45, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Your standards are exacting, Scolaire. But it is a pleasure to meet them. How do the following whet your senses?

Fearghal McGarry:

"Two flags were raised over the GPO—a green flag (inscribed with 'Irish Republic' and featuring a golden harp) and a much less familiar green, white, and orange tricolour. The Citizen Army's 'starry plough' standard was flown from the roof of the Imperial Hotel (owned by Connolly's nemesis, William Martin Murphy, who had led the employers during the bitter 1913 Lockout)." — Fearghal McGarry (2010), The Rising: Easter 1916, Oxford: Oxford University Press

And Charles Townshend:

"The the other flag raised on the GPO was a one-off creation - masterminded, inevitably, by Constance Markievicz - using the traditional golder Irish harp on a green ground, with the words 'Irish Republic' pained in gold. The material was, allegedly, an old coverlet ('of a bed that Larry Ginnell used to sleep in'), dyed green: her gold pain had hardened and had to be thinned with mustard." — Charles Townshend (2006), Easter 1916: The Irish Rebellion, London: Penguin UK, p. 12

--Tóraí (talk) 13:03, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Your perseverence is commendable, Tóraí, but the facts remain the same, and are verifiable. 1, Two flags, and only two, were raised over the GPO (McGarry, Townshend and your other three are all agreed on that). 2, One of them was a tricolour. 3, The other was a green flag with "Irish Republic" on it. 4, The consensus of the sources is that the green flag did not have a harp on it. 5, The flag itself is in the National Museum, and demonstrably lacks a harp. 6, As you began by saying, nobody has ever seen an image of this mythical green harp flag. I don't see that it would add any value to the article to say "some sources claim that the Irish Republic flag had a harp on it." Scolaire (talk) 15:00, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Our discussion is independent of the facts. So, yes they do remain the same.

I agree with you on all the points you are making except that some (very reliable) sources say the green flag had a harp on it. Townsend even goes into detail of how the paint used to draw the harp was thinned with mustard. That's a lot of detail from a serious historian about something that (according to you) didn't exist.

Here's Alan O'Day describing it:

"Both the national flag and the national anthem of Ireland derive origins directly from the Rising. At first it still appeared as if the revolutionaries would take over the old symbols because on the roof of their headquarters, the Dublin General Post Office, a green flag with the harp was hoisted next to the republican tricolour although with the inscription 'Irish Republic'." — Alan O'Day, ed. (1987), Reactions To Irish Nationalism, 1865-1914, London: Continuum, p. 16

From a verifiability perspective, I'd also pick holes in what you say here: "The consensus of the sources is that the green flag did not have a harp on it." Do the sources say it did not a harp on it? Or do they just say a green flag was hoisted?

And with regards to the the flag returned in 1966, presumably the same one photographed with the British officers in the postcard I link to above, do we know that that's the same flag that Townsend, O'Day, McGarry and a whole raft of others say went up? The national museum has a photograph taken from the Imperial Hotel, across the street from the GPO. I wonder if it shows exactly which flags were flying.

Anyway, I don't know what flags flew there (and neither do you). I wasn't there. All we have to go on is the literature: all say it was a green flag with Irish Republic, some say it had a harp on it, the one in the National Museum doesn't have a harp on it. I think the article should fairly represent the breadth of the sources. That can be done without implying that it definitively had a harp on it. --Tóraí (talk) 15:53, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Here, by the way, is the photograph (I believe) form the Imperial Hotel: http://irishvolunteers.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Republican-flag-over-GPO-1916..jpg

No harp on that one. --Tóraí (talk) 16:08, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

(And it's the Prince's Street corner, Nelsen's Pillar, can be seen over head the GPO, which is the corner sources say the Green Harp flag was flown from.) --Tóraí (talk) 16:34, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to enquire whether we can use all of these images, including the British soldiers with the flag, in the article. I'm not certain about the copyright. --Tóraí (talk) 16:36, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Alan O'Day is a crap historian. His Irish Home Rule talks about "the Queen's Speech" more than ten years after the queen died and was succeeded by a king. Townshend's comments on the gold paint don't really show anything. You can see from the image on the article page that there was gold paint on the flag. He was just wrong about the harp.

In all seriousness, I think I'm going to unwatch this article and the talk page. This article could be improved in so many ways, but there's acres of space on the talk page devoted to pointless arguments over trivial "facts". Let me know if there is any move to improve content regarding the Rising itself, its background or its consequences. Otherwise I can't be bothered any longer. Scolaire (talk) 21:55, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh, come on, you auld grump! This was a fantastic thread.

I started off saying how I had read (in numerous sources) that a green harp flag had been raised over the GPO and asked if anyone else had an opinion on it. Then, thought a process of challenging each other, we produced not only a) a series of well-known historians saying 'yes' one had been flown; but also b) a period photograph showing a said flag in the position they said it would be ... only with no harp to be seen.

Myth busted. Two guys on the internet just disproved a prevalent historical inaccuracy - an inaccuracy prevelent even among some of the best (or at least well-known) historians. People give out about the accuracy of Wikipedia. Well on this one, the two of us are ahead of those guys, Scolaire.

So, what's not to love about this thread? Yes, asking what flags flew might be seen as trivial, but, as O'Day rightly points out, 1916 changed the flag of Ireland. O'Day makes a song and dance about 1916 being a transition between symbols and that both flags were flown. We can now say those guys didn't equivocate. They intended a clean cut with the symbols of the past. They looked forward only. There was no green harp on the GPO. --Tóraí (talk) 23:21, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

"Revisionist" historians began to write of it in terms of a "blood sacrifice"

I'm suspicious always of two things: 1) the term "revisionist"; and 2) when two sources are used to support different parts of a sentence with only one clause.

The idea of 1916 being a blood sacrifice was common at the time among nationalist historians. Take Seumas MacManus (1921), The Story of the Irish Race: A Popular History of Ireland, New York: Irish publishing Company:

"When the war came, Pearse brooded even more seriously on the need of an armed rising. When every other subject people rose for freedom, was Ireland alone to make no sign? She must fight, if not with hope of success, then in the spirit of a blood sacrifice to demonstrate her undying resolve to win ultimate freedom. This Pearse preached to the people, speaking at meetings where, with a religious solemnity, he made his hearers stand as for the recitation of the Creed in Church, and repeat after him: "I believe in One Irish Nation, and that Free."
...
An important group of the Irish workers and fighters held out for the Irish Republic, which has been consecrated by the blood of Pearse, Connolly, Clarke, and their gallant companion, and by a thousand martyrs since" (My emphasis)

It's not a "revisionist" thing at all. --Tóraí (talk) 23:43, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

[Off-topic comments removed. --Tóraí (talk) 23:38, 5 February 2014 (UTC)]

Not sure just how accurate your statements are however Wikipedia is not a forum. Stick to discussions on improving the article.

In response to the topic - do any of the rising leaders or contemporaries at that time (1916) use the colourful language that is "blood sacrifice" or is it romantic writing that in the case of the source you've provided was published 5 years after the rising when one is obviously looking back at it? Mabuska ^(talk) 22:30, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

I've made the off-topic stuff small, would be better than just removing it all including an on-topic comment.

I assume it is this bit of the article you are on about: `"Revisionist" historians[110] began to write of it in terms of a "blood sacrifice".[111]`? Revisionism can occur at any period after an event, yet I do agree that it should be reworded as it is mixing two sources for different parts to state something. A simple rewording to put both parts in context should suffice, such as for the blood bit "<insert who> described it in <insert year> as a "blood sacrifice". Mabuska ^(talk) 22:45, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Your source above is problematic: "This Pearse preached to the people, speaking at meetings where, with a religious solemnity, he made his hearers stand as for the recitation of the Creed in Church, and repeat after him: "I believe in One Irish Nation, and that Free.
...
An important group of the Irish workers and fighters held out for the Irish Republic, which has been consecrated by the blood of Pearse, Connolly, Clarke, and their gallant companion, and by a thousand martyrs since" - so Pearse preached to the people about 1916 and referred to himself in the third person? Mabuska ^(talk) 22:50, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Hah! No, just I missed a quotation mark. I've added it in now.

"Revisionism" in Irish history refers to a particular phase in Irish history (presenting a revised view, that challenged the then-accepted nationalist notions). The 1921 quote is long before then. Way before "revisionism".

Pearse did use colourful language that drew on ideas of blood sacrifice, for example:

"I am glad, then, that the North has begun. I am glad that the Orangemen have armed, for it is a goodly thing to see arms in Irish hands. I should like to see the A. O. H. armed. I should like to see the Transport Workers armed. I should like to see any and every body of Irish citizens armed. We must accustom ourselves to the thought of arms, to the sight of arms, to the use of arms. We may make mistakes in the beginning and shoot the wrong people; but bloodshed is a cleansing and a sanctifying thing, and the nation which regards it as the final horror has lost its manhood. There are many things more horrible than bloodshed; and slavery is one of them."

But what Pearse said is neither here-nor-there, the point I'm making is that historians were writing about the Rising in terms of blood sacrifice long before the Revisionists.

If no-one objects, I'm just going to delete the line and it can be put back in with better referencing again. --Tóraí (talk) 23:54, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Well two things about your quote: 1 - it doesn't refer to the Easter Rising; 2 - he doesn't state "blood sacrifice" or imply anything of the sort, but that bloodshed is a suppossed purifying thing. I object "blood sacrifice" being in the article out of proper context/attribution or properly sourced. And as stated, revisionism can occur at anytime, even minutes after an event. Most of the times its called propaganda. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:33, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

1) The passage refers to Pearse's motivation behind the planning and executing the Rising. 2) Yes, it does. I underlined the phrase.

Anyway, we seem to agree to remove the line for now in any case. --Tóraí (talk) 12:23, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I was talking about the quote you provided in your second last comment. Also who says Pearse can't be guilty of nostalgic revisionism? However if that other source backs up revisionism in regards to the Easter Rising, it should be included, though as with "blood sacricice", it needs to be put in proper context, which in this case will need a direct quote in the citation so it can be clear. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:37, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Centenary

With this fast approaching does anyone know what plans are afoot to mark the event please? SmokeyTheCat 10:41, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Commemoration is underway

83.71.76.143 (talk) 13:51, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Relevance of picture in "Reaction of Dublin public"

What is this relatively modern picture doing in the "response in Dublin" section? Great picture, but could we not replace it with a photo of some actual response in Dublin in or around 1916? Furthermore, perhaps putting this photo under the "commemoration" section would be more apt?

A mural in Belfast commemorating the rising. This has exactly what historical relevance to the "reaction in Dublin public" in 1916?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.71.76.143 (talk • contribs) 13:51, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Edits of 19 December

How this edit can be called "strange", let alone "vandalism" is beyond me. I can see hardly anything in the edit that I disagree with. In the spirit of BRD, I suggest that The Banner clarify what, in the edit, was incorrect, what he disagrees with, and why. Scolaire (talk) 17:36, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

1. The British Army rushed in 20,000 troops with machine guns and artillery. Pearse agreed to an unconditional surrender on Saturday 29 April, Thomas MacDonagh the following day. Not a clue what McDonagh suddenly shows up in this sentence. Seems rather lost here.
2. Plunkett travelled to Germany in April 1915 to join Roger Casement, who had gone there from the United States the previous year with the support of Clan na Gael leader John Devoy, and after discussions with the German Ambassador in Washington, Count von Bernstorff, to try to recruit an Irish Brigade from among Irish prisoners of war and secure German support for Irish independence. One massive sentence, instead of the two earlier.
3. James Connolly—head of the Irish Citizen Army (ICA), a group of armed socialist trade union men and women—was unaware of the IRB's plans, and intended to start a rebellion on his own if other parties failed to act. If they had gone it alone, the IRB and the Volunteers would possibly have come to their aid; however, several Volunteer leaders met with Connolly in January 1916 and convinced him to join forces with them. Connolly did not intend to start a rebellion on his own, he only threatened to do so. And he was involved with talks to the IRB-leadership, noet the Volunteer-leadership (although many IRB-leaders also belonged to the Volunteer-leadership)
4. When occupying positions in the South Dublin Union and Jacob's factory, the rebels got involved in physical confrontations with civilians trying to prevent them from taking over the buildings — Jacob's was in the Earl of Meath's Liberty, where many families subsisted on the wages of family members who had joined the British Army. The part of the Earl of Meath is effectively unsourced.
5. Survivors of the Rising went on to become leaders of the independent Irish state and those who died were venerated by many as martyrs. Not every survivor became a leader.
6. The graves of the 16 executed, in Dublin's former military prison of Arbour Hill, became a national monument (...) Not only the 16 men executed were venerated as martyrs, many other victims too.

And so on. The whole shebang is just too broad and vague. The Banner talk 19:08, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for that critique. I'm guessing that the reference to MacDonagh was to show that everybody did not surrender immediately when Pearse gave the order. This is probably too much detail for the lead, and, as you say, it's phrased rather confusingly, but the fact ought to be added to the "Surrender" section. The rest of your points are well made, and indeed there was a long discussion several years ago where it was pointed out that Myths from Easter 1916 is not a very good source. I have done a couple of edits to restore much of the constructive part of 80.111.211.252's edit, as well as some changes of my own that were suggested by the edit. Scolaire (talk) 13:13, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Scolaire and The Banner. However, I think we should all also thank 80.111.211.252, who seems to be new, clearly put a lot of work into his or her changes, many of which have been kept, and made other useful implicit suggestions. Especially as Wikipedia is suffering from a growing shortage of editors, we should probably be going out of our way to welcome him or her aboard (and perhaps also suggesting that he or she will probably find it easier to get edits accepted if he or she gets an account, which is of course entirely free). I'm going to put a message to this effect on his or her Talk page, tho I don't know whether he or she will be notified of it given that it's just an IP address. Tlhslobus (talk) 17:51, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

(I've now left a message there).Tlhslobus (talk) 18:03, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

It seems to be a static IP: there are edits going back to April of this year. They should get it okay. However, I've just looked at the talk page and it seems to be empty. Are you sure you got the address right when you were leaving the message? Scolaire (talk) 18:08, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Scolaire, and sorry about that - I seem to have sent it to the wrong IP address for some unknown reason. It's now in the right place. Tlhslobus (talk) 18:18, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Incidentally, Scolaire, there's only one small edit from April and one from September, all the others are 19th December, which at least seemingly makes him or her new for most practical purposes. And thanks for your supporting message there. Tlhslobus (talk) 18:23, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

FA template

For those of you who, like me, thought that the only effect of the {{FA link|eu}} was to add an incomprehensible message about considering the FA template for deletion, what it actually does is to put a gold star against the Basque (Euskara) entry under "Languages" on the left-hand side. Well done the Basques! Makes me ashamed we can't do the same on English or Irish Wikipedia. Scolaire (talk) 19:22, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, scratch that. I ran the Basque article through Google Translate and it's only a word-for-word translation of an out-of-date version of our article. All the refs are the same (English language) refs. I guess the FA process is easier on other wikis. Scolaire (talk) 20:09, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Commanders and leaders

I think Augustine Birrell and Matthew Nathan should be included on the British side. Birrell was Chief Secretary for Ireland and Nathan was Under-Secretary and both men coordinated the British response to the Easter Rising. I also think it would make sense to change W. H. M. Lowe to William Lowe (British Army officer) since the article has been renamed such. 64.132.0.200 (talk) 18:49, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Why are the Irish leaders incorrectly marked as "Killed in Action" instead of an older version which correctly says "Executed"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.123.236.5 (talk) 16:00, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Do you mean in the infobox at the side? That change seems to have been introduced in edits by Brigade Piron who added in a "Killed in action" template. I've reverted that change, as you correctly point out, the Irish leaders were executed after the Rising. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:09, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

The Template: Executed Symbol

I just reverted to a previous editors change of Template: KIA to Template: Executed in the info box for the rebellions leaders. My reading of the WP template info indicates that this is quite correct in its usage. On the other hand some might object to the symbol used by the template. If anywhere that belongs in a discussion on the template. No? Juan Riley (talk) 21:35, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• For reference see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Executed and 2010 discussion of template: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2010_November_19#Template:Executed Juan Riley (talk) 22:52, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
  • It is a plain ugly thing, not adding any real value to the article. So to my opinion the removal was correct. The Banner talk 23:30, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
    • The KIA etc is used in many articles' infoboxes. I agree that the symbol chosen for Executed by someone years ago may be grotesque. (I am attempting to not show my POV like a pink slip...but frankly I find the action of execution more grotesque than the symbol). But I am not arguing for the symbol. Asking simply that if the usage of this template in this article is not justified...then where is it justified? If the argument is that this symbol should not be used...or even that the template shouldn't exist...well...it should be taken it to another place. Why I looked up past discussions.Juan Riley (talk) 00:00, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

With respect, you're arguing from the particular to the general. If the template should not be used on this article then it should not be used on this article. If you want to raise the wider question, "where should it be used?", then, as you say, you need to do that elsewhere. My own feeling is that I would prefer it not to be used on this article, per The Banner. Scolaire (talk) 19:30, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Scolaire, with respect, I note that you "revert pending talk page discussion". Sigh, I had thought that's what I had done. Whatever. Above, I wasn't attempting to employ any highfalutin rhetorical device or fallacy. I was just noting that by design the template's intended usage appears to cover this case--and therefore I reverted their deletion and here asked for the arguments as to why they should be deleted. Moreover I wanted to separate off arguments against the template "in general" from those against its specific usage here. So far, if I collect, the arguments given for deletion of the templates are (pardon me if I rhetorically assume the fiction that they are still in the article): they "don't really need to be here", "plain ugly thing" with "no real value", and "would prefer it not to be used on this article". That about sum it up? Juan Riley (talk) 21:45, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

The template was added only two days ago, so you weren't reverting to the status quo ante by re-adding it. Your assessment of the arguments against its inclusion here is accurate IMO. However, since there is no policy or guideline that I know of that says a template has to be used in the kind of article it was designed for, they are perfectly valid arguments. You said above, "or even that the template shouldn't exist". I certainly would not be upset if it was deleted. But that, as you say, is an argument for elsewhere. The question here is, is it wanted in this article? The consensus seems to be no, it is not. If the discussion widens, and a consensus for inclusion emerges, then it can be put back. But right now it should not. Scolaire (talk) 22:55, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Incidentally, I followed your link to the TfD: it was a very brief discussion and a very weak keep. It's certainly not a strong argument for its use in any article. Scolaire (talk) 23:07, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Scolaire...with respect...read all I have written and see if I am (yet) arguing for use of the   tag. The issue has been arguments against (well until you boldly reverted I guess). I do understand the personal distaste folk might have for the template. I might even agree with the arguments. Odd when it was a christian orientated cross for a factually incorrect tag (KIA) they had no problem. And please don't use moral imperatives like "should". As I said...personal distaste seems to be the consensus argument against the use of the   tag. Is there a WP acronym for this? WP:IDONTLIKEIT? Juan Riley (talk) 23:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Juan, with respect, I did read all that you wrote and I found it very hard to follow. I did not know what you were arguing, but on balance it appeared to me that you were arguing for the retention of the skull and cross-bones. Certainly, you were taking me to task for removing it. I answered by stating my opinion that until there was an obvious consensus for its restoration it should not be restored. Referring to that as a "use of moral imperative" is tendentious in my opinion.

WP:IDONTLIKEIT says, "Content on Wikipedia is judged based on its compliance with guidelines, not its physical appearance. Once you can make all the content comply, you can then work with that and tidy it up" (emphasis added). Since names with skull-and-crossbones, names with crosses and names with nothing all comply equally with guidelines, the only remaining question was whether editors liked it or not. Therefore we had every right to express our opinions in any terms we chose, as long as we remained civil. Scolaire (talk) 07:49, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I made the edit on the 13th of May restoring the "executed" tag. My intention was to replace the gravestone cross which is also used on WikiPedia as a marker for KIA (and therefore inaccurate in this article). I have problems marking the Irish leaders as "executed" is so cursory a manner as adding a symbol after their names, when the importance of their execution (to the sympathy given to the rising) is better dealt with at more length in the text. However, if those more experienced in WikiPedia deem an icon necessary, then it should be the correct one. For what it's worth, I prefer the absence of any icon. Greg 89.101.235.207 (talk) 23:30, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

That works for me Greg. Juan Riley (talk) 23:50, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Recent edits

This series of edits had the appearance of being the start of an expansion of the article. However, a week has passed and no further work has been done, so I am going to revert them. As part of that I'm reverting the addition of the Fianna and the Hibernian Rifles to the infobox, because it was agreed in a previous discussion that it should be limited to the three main organisations. Scolaire (talk) 07:55, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

No chance of success

NOTE: Closing discussion initiated by a sockpuppet of banned editor HarveyCarter. Binksternet (talk) 00:02, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Shouldn't the article mention the fact that the rebellion in April 1916 never had any chance of succeeding? (WilliamKillarney (talk) 18:11, 3 June 2015 (UTC))

Sorry, but the rebellion was a success. It finally woke up the people... The Banner talk 20:15, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

No. It was crushed within a week. Even Michael Collins said the 1916 rebellion never had a chance of succeeding. (WilliamKillarney (talk) 07:36, 4 June 2015 (UTC))

Do you really think we won't know who you are? You are a sock of a banned user and your trolling is so obvious it has "no chance of success". Scolaire (talk) 22:23, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

• Sock blocked.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:49, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

User:The Banner, the rising itself was a failure. The British response afterwards is what woke Irish nationalists up. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:40, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

That is only one point of view. There are distinguished historians who say it was the rising itself. I'm sorry you feel the need to support a tendentious claim by a banned user. Scolaire (talk) 14:11, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Don't know where you get that conclusion from about me supporting the user but that is only one point of view. Mabuska ^(talk) 15:34, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Tis semantics and hindsight you are arguing about. Both of which are arguably POV's. Juan Riley (talk) 23:41, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Introduction

NOTE: Closing discussion initiated by a sockpuppet of banned editor HarveyCarter. Binksternet (talk) 00:02, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Most historians say it was the aftermath of the Easter Rising, especially the executions of the leaders, which influenced public opinion far more than the uprising itself. Also the German weapons not arriving should be mentioned - if they had the Rising could have succeeded. (TalbertTaylor (talk) 18:07, 2 August 2015 (UTC))

No rising, no executions, no aftermath. And what you say about the German weapons is speculation. The Banner talk 18:18, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

If General Maxwell had been allowed to carry out fewer executions as he intended the aftermath might have been very different. (TalbertTaylor (talk) 18:20, 2 August 2015 (UTC))

If, if, if. All speculation. The Banner talk 18:52, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

The Rising was a mistake as it achieved nothing. The IRB should have waited until the German weapons arrived, then all of Ireland could have become completely independent in 1916. (TalbertTaylor (talk) 18:58, 2 August 2015 (UTC))

Nice speculation, Harvey. The Banner talk 20:20, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Uh? Calling the Rising a success is like saying Dunkirk was a victory because the Allies invaded France four years later. (TalbertTaylor (talk) 23:01, 2 August 2015 (UTC))

Fianna Éireann

I know that this has been discussed and that someone keeps arguing against the Fianna being included as combatants however the records of the Bureau of Military History are very clear that the Fianna were involved in 1916 in a combat capacity and that they took part in actions with Volunteer garrisons and acted as couriers (and again I know it has been argued that being a courier does not make you a combatant, which is a rather odd argument as couriers that are captured in uniform are treated as soldiers and the British army did attack Fianna couriers, killed one of them, and couriers were carrying military orders between garrisons - they meet the normal internationally accepted rules for being combatants and always have done).

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS0191.pdf#page=10

This is from the Military Pensions Act 1924

"the expression “military service” means active service in any rank, whether as an officer, non-commissioned officer, private or volunteer in any of the following forces, that is to say—“Oglaigh na hEireann” or the military body known as the “Irish Volunteers” or the military body known as the “Irish Citizen Army” or the body known as “Fianna Eireann” or the body known as the “Hibernian Rifles” or the “National Forces” or the “Defence Forces of Saorstát Eireann” or any branch of any of those forces. For the purposes of this Act service as a member of the Irish Volunteer Executive or of the Headquarters Staff of Oglaigh na hEireann or in the Intelligence Branch of any of the said military forces or bodies, or in the Intelligence Service carried on under the authority of the First Dáil Eireann or of the Second Dáil Eireann, shall be deemed to be military service in Oglaigh na hEireann or in the Irish Volunteers, as the case may be;"

NOTE that membership of Fianna Éireann is considered to have been military service and pensions were paid for service during the 1916 rising. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.187.123.93 (talk) 17:54, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

The most relevant discussions are here and here. Snapshots of the article at the time of those discussions here and here. The redlinks in the second were: Sunburst Flag.svg – Irish Republican Brotherhood; Green harp flag of Ireland.svg – Irish Volunteers; Starry Plough flag (1914).svg – Irish Citizen Army; Sunburst Flag.svg – Fianna Éireann; and "In the name of" – Flag of Ireland.svg – Provisional Government of the Irish Republic. Note that on both occasions the right-hand-side included the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police, and in the second discussion somebody suggested – in all seriousness – that "the British Navy be included by virtue of the Helega [sic] attacking rebel positions". The main problem is one of clutter: once you add one thing, other people will add other things, until the infobox no longer fulfils its function of providing a concise overview. Help:Infobox says that "Infoboxes, like the introduction to the article, should primarily contain material that is expanded on...elsewhere in the article." The Fianna have only a single mention in the article (in the sentence beginning "At midday a small team of Volunteers and Fianna Éireann members..."). A second consideration is that the BMH witness statements and Military Service Pensions are primary sources. What we're missing is a secondary source (book, journal article, web page) saying that the WSs or MSPs make the Fianna belligerents in the Easter Rising, or otherwise saying that the Fianna, as a force, fought in the Rising. The infobox, to my mind, is for stating the salient fact, as stated in all the sources: that the Rising was an armed rising by the IV and ICA against the British Army. Scolaire (talk) 13:26, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Scolaire has it correct. The small group was a minor part of the battle, not major. They should not be listed in the infobox. Binksternet (talk) 16:34, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

The Fianna was a major organisation which was involved in the rising, service counted for military pensions and leaving it out doesn't make sense. I really think that it should be added back. I think that the refusal to do so is a matter of personal opinion and not historically correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.187.85.44 (talk) 16:23, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

It makes perfect sense, and it is not just a matter of personal opinion. There were policy-based reasons given for leaving them out. Nor is it true to say that it is "not historically correct": it is purely an editorial choice, for which there is a long-standing consensus. Scolaire (talk) 16:53, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Edit-war

Since the end of last month there has been edit-warring over whether Gallipoli should be described in the lead as "the Middle East" or "Southwestern Asia" and whether the Irish Convention should be described as "British-dominated" or "British-sponsored". Since neither is directly related to the Easter Rising, and neither is mentioned in the article proper, neither belongs in the lead, so the problem is easily solved by removing them. Scolaire (talk) 09:37, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

ok, agree - if in doubt - cut it out Lugnad (talk) 10:52, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Good move ----Snowded ^TALK 12:53, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Should "rising" be capititalized?

Should rising be in capitals or lowercase here? For example, here's a section from the article: Three unarmed Dublin Metropolitan Police were shot dead on the first day of the Rising and their Commissioner pulled them off the streets. Partly as a result of the police withdrawal, a wave of looting broke out in the city centre, especially in the O'Connell Street area. A total of 425 people were arrested after the Rising for looting. I would put Rising in lowercase, but I want to gain consensus before I do. Peter Sam Fan | talk 15:33, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Disagree, it is an event not a type of event so should be capitalised ----Snowded ^TALK 16:02, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Okay. Peter Sam Fan | chat? 16:04, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Executed

User:The Banner, what problem did you have with me adding the   icon behind the names of the commanders executed as a result of the insurrection, as per Template:Executed? Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 19:28, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

This was previously discussed here, about a year ago. There was a consensus that the icon was ugly and unnecessary. Note the last two posts, where the two editors who were adding the icon agreed that the infobox would be better with nothing at all. Scolaire (talk) 09:48, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Hm, I don't see a concensus there, but thanks for pointing it out. I guess it's personal taste and I don't pretend mine is more valid than others, so I won't argue. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 18:35, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Does seem unnecessary and in poor taste. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:21, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Death of Richard O'Carroll

Would someone please note that Richard O'Carroll was captured and shot on Wednesday, April 26, not Tuesday, April 25. The source is Bryan Bacon's "A Terrible Duty: the Madness of Captain Bowen-Colthurst".CanK9 (talk) 00:27, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Done. The shooting was covered in existing refs, so it wasn't necessary to add a new one. I gather that A Terrible Duty is a Kindle-only book, hence the absence of page numbers. It wouldn't be considered as authoritative as the major works on the Rising: Caulfield, Townshend, McGarry and Yeates. Scolaire (talk) 08:12, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Max Caulfield's "Easter Rebellion" (which is NOT footnoted) makes errors in discussing Bowen-Colthurst and his victims. For instance, Coade was not on the ground when Colthurst shot him. Though occasionally supporting the British war effort, Dickson's "Eye Opener" was not a 'violently Loyalist paper' (Copies of MacIntyre's Searchlight are apparently not extant). Colthurst did not tell Sergeant Aldridge that he was going to shoot the prisoners. McTurk did not find Colthurst "rational enough". (He prescribed potassium bromide for him.). Though an exciting story and well told, Caulfield's work has perhaps been superseded by more recent sources.

Before dismissing Bryan Bacon's "A Terrible Duty: the Madness of Captain Bowen-Colthurst" out of hand, it might be worthwhile reading it. (It is footnoted). I would recommend Wiki contributors read that book or James Taylor's forthcoming (June) title "Guilty but Insane" before amending or adding material on Bowen Colthurst for this article.CanK9 (talk) 00:43, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

I am aware of the pitfalls of citing Caulfield. However, none of the details that you say are incorrect are in this article in any shape or form, and in any case the paragraph containing the shooting of Richard O'Carroll has five citations, not just Caulfield. "More recent sources" does not always equal "better sources"; I would be concerned that there does not seem to be a review of Bacon's book in places like the national newspapers or the Dublin Review of Books. I get that you think it's a great book and you'd like people to read it, but that's not what Wikipedia is for. Bear in mind also that this is not an article on the Bowen-Colthurst killings. I would not expect the paragraph on them to grow any more, but if it is edited I trust the editors to get it right by referring to the accepted authorities on the Rising. Scolaire (talk) 13:05, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

The problem with Caulfield is that because it's not footnoted, one really doesn't know which statements are reliable and which are not. The other sources are fine but they don't discuss Colthurt's part in the Rising in detail. Colthurst appears in the article so it seems reasonable that if anyone wanted to know more about him, they should be able follow up on the only comprehensive resource currently available.CanK9 (talk) 20:52, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't think it's actually possible to be more comprehensive on Easter Week than existing books, because the only primary sources are the commission of enquiry and Hanna Sheehy-Skeffington's booklet. If Bacon had come up with anything new after 100 years, you may be sure the reviewers would have taken notice. If I'm wrong, you can tell me what these new sources are. At any rate, anything in that paragraph is both adequately sourced and factual. Citations are for verification, not for "following up". Scolaire (talk) 09:35, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

The information we had about Colthurst's activities during the Rising was based primarily on incomplete accounts of Colthurst's court martial and on the published 'Royal Commission on the arrest on 25 April... MacIntyre'. Unfortunately the transcript of the court martial was suppressed and the (crucial) evidential proceedings of the Royal Commission were never published, so myths about Colthurst continue to be reproduced . In the absence of official transcripts, authors should perhaps use the original 1916 reports of the court martial and of the Royal Commission in the daily Irish Times, the Irish Independent, and the weekly Irish Times (as reproduced in the 'Sinn Fein Rebellion Handbook'), and the 'Searchable Press Cuttings, Part 2' issued by the Bureau of Military History. (The 1916 newspaper accounts are comprehensive and pretty reliable as they can be cross-checked). Based on the continuing errors about Colthurst in a number of books and newspapers and on the internet , it would appear that few authors have checked their facts against these sources.CanK9 (talk) 23:53, 3 May 2016 (UTC)