Talk:East Coast Swing

Please Note

The following four comments were posted prior to the current Edit. Also please note the corrected definition of the terms Jitterbug and Swing by left clicking on them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dancefusion‎ (talk • contribs)

The article "East Coast Swing" is too filled with inaccuracy to be edited. It needs to be replaced in full with accurate information relative to the East Coast Swing. A good song to dance swing is "Gettin in the Mood (For Christmas)"'Italic text' 1. The "Steps" described are mis-named and the descriptions within are misleading. To begin with "Steps" in dance is the "Footwork", "Positions" are the positions that the partners are in to perform a specific "Pattern" (body movement) There is no "He Goes" or "She Goes" and when used with "Leader" and "Follower" is ambigulous. The titles are "Woman's Underarm Right Turn" or "Woman's Underarm Left Turn" and "Man's Underarm Right Turn" or "Man's Underarm Left Turn", all depending on the direction that the turn is to be made and by whom. The turns are also correctly sometimes called "Outside Turn" or "Inside Turn" describing the direction that the turn is to be made. Partner dancing obviously forms a partnership and within the partnership there is a leader and follower. Traditionally the leader is the man and the woman is the follower. "Outside" or "Inside" is viewed from within the partnership from the vantage point of the man (leader)with the couple facing each other right eye to right eye. To the man's left is outside for both partners and to the man's right is inside for both partners.

2. The "Footwork" described is from dances that are not to be mixed. The article states that the footwork of Swing Dance, Jitterbug, Lindy-hop, and East Coast Swing can all be mixed. That is not true! An East Coast Swing is an East Coast Swing and the steps (footwork) and can not be mixed with those of the other swing dances. The single step is Swing Dance; the double step is Jitterbug; the triple step is East Coast Swing; and holds are syncopations numerous variations. This so call "Footwork" describes "Step" that belong to specific dance styles and are not mixed within the same dance. Each can be danced to the same genre of music with the same tempo depending on the dance couple's level of dance.

3. An In-place Basic is the steps danced in the same place without movement to either side or forward or backward. They do not have to be danced in the same position.

4. The pattern originally described as the pretzel is correctly renamed the cuddle although the turn is the "wrap turn" and the position that the couple ends in is the "cuddle position". The "pretzel" is a position and the turn necessary to achieve the "pretzel" position is a modified "Woman's Underarm Right Turn". It is an intermediate level position.

5. The "Tuck Turn", the "Throw-out", and the "Return to Close" are all mislead. There are no nudges or pulls or pushes in dance. Each pattern is lead by each partner maintaining a correct frame. Directional body movement is lead from the frame itself, not nudges, pulls, or pushes. Turns, dips, flow, promenaides and other patterns are all lead by properly trained arm and hand placements of the man (leader).

6. Like other topics requiring expert instruction, amateur dancers should refrain from writing dance instruction, editing the content of such instruction. A case in point is the page on "East Coast Swing". It has had so many contributors, each meaning well, but most misinformed.

--AttitudeDanceStudios 13:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from User talk:AttitudeDanceStudios

While I agree that this article in its current state is fairly poor for an encyclopedia article, I would disagree with some of your proposed corrections. Dance instruction is not universal, and for many dances (particularly folk dances like most swing dances), it is quite common for them to be taught and described differently in various regions. There are some trends that tend to be generally recognized as "right", but there is no governing body over swing dance that says what is "right" or "wrong". I would particularly take issue with #2 on your list. I have never heard swing dance, jitterbug, and East Coast Swing broken down in that way, and I know many people who would disagree with it. Swing dance generally refers to a category of dances that includes lindy hop, East Coast Swing, West Coast Swing, jitterbug, and many other dances listed in the swing dance article. Also, keep in mind that swing dancers and ballroom dancers tend to view their dances differently. For example, while ballroom dancers usually see lindy hop and East Coast Swing as being very different from one another, there are many credible swing dancers who consider East Coast Swing to be a subset of lindy hop that uses similar techniques rather than a completely different dance.

Regarding #6 on your list, Wikipedia is not limited to experts only. It is open for anyone to edit as they please, as long as they follow the rules and guidelines for Wikipedia. We would hope that the editors of an article would include experts who could add information to articles beyond what an amateur could do, but no has the right to say that an amateur cannot edit an article. Besides, what constitutes an "expert" can be subjective. I've known dancers who claimed to be experts when they could not follow some of the most basic principles of dancing.

--Cswrye 03:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

This article has been marked for cleaning up. I'll work on some of the class materials I use and post soon. PatHaugen 22:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)pathaugen

Ambiguity in She Goes and He Goes descriptions

The descriptions of the She Goes move and the He Does move seem to be somewhat ambiguous and maybe contradictory, or at least unclear.

According to the descriptions, in both cases someone is going under the leader's raised hand, so in each cases the person is turning toward the leading hand (counter-clockwise for leader, clockwise for follower). However, one is labeled "inside" but the other is labeled "outside," which seems to be contradictory.

It would help if:

1. The descriptions specified the direction of the spin (clockwise or the reverse).

2. The descriptions explicitly mentioned whether the hand was raised straight up or was raised and brought across in front of the follower (or wherever else).

3. The page explained what "inside" and "outside" meant. (What are they based on--the inside and outside of what?)

Daniel B.

As an answer to the questions: (#1) the follow preforms a basic inside turn and then the lead (on counts five and six) does a counter-clockwise turn under the connected hands... I tried to make that somewhat more clear in the article; (#2) should be fixed, tell me if it's still unclear somewhere; (#3) everyone has a different reason for why they're called inside and outside turns -- some argue that it's because an inside turn results in the follow turning toward you (inside) rather than turning away from you (outside) while others argue that it's based on how the lead leads the move (in an inside turn, the lead brings his hand inside whereas in an outside, the lead brings his hand out and outside of this abstract "box" made by the shoulders of the lead and follow and the two connected hands of the lead and the follow). Utopianheaven 09:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Page title

I have removed the excess capitalisation of words that are not proper names. I hesitate on the page title, however. ECS is a common abbreviation, but does that nedessarily mean that the full name should be capitalised? Should it be "East Coast Swing" or "East Coast swing"? I have seen the latter often, but IMHO I think it should be more correct. // Habj 12:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I would weakly disagree, based only on the notion that East Coast Swing (ECS) comes from Eastern Swing (ES)... such that the term 'swing' isn't qualifying East Coast as a type of swing dance but part of the actual title of the dance (which just happens to be the type of dance it is). Just my two cents. :) Utopianheaven 09:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Transwiki

Unless someone objects, I'm going to send the how-to sections of this article to Wikibooks. My current plan is to leave most of the lead here on Wikipedia (which is fine, it just needs some sources), and move most of the "moves" text into the b:Swing Dancing/East Coast Swing, easily accessible from the See Also section. The remaining article will probably be a stub, and will probably need some help in recovery. Please let me know if you think those sections are necessary to the integrity of the article (and can provide suitable references), or if you feel this is inappopriate.--Will.i.am 21:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to keep a short list of steps, essentially what was here before the October rewrite. I'm hoping someone will transwiki the how-to sections because I don't want to just erase it. But it's become too verbose to add anything to it. ( I came here to add something to the double-time basic but it's full of counts and calls that I'm unfamiliar with. I wanted to say that in the double swing the lead spends more time on his left foot than on the right, so that it might be counted slow-slow, quick-quick, rock-step. I also think the "footwork" section should be renamed "Basic Step" and be put at the beginning of the steps. It should just say what the steps are for the basic, and simply mention that there is similar timing for the other moves ) Squidfryerchef 06:01, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Whoops, sorry. I had transwikied the article and then never got around to removing the how-to section from the wikipedia article. I left a short description of the basic (if I got that suggestion right from your comment), but do feel that it too should have a reference (got a dance book or anything?). Please put things back in that I accidentally removed if you want them, but a very ambitious (and appreciated) user has been doing a lot on East Coast Swing in Wikibooks where the material was transwikied to, and where any step-by-step breakdown probably should be.--Will.i.am 13:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, I wont feel bad for yanking large chunks of the article if I get around to working in it. I'm going for a very short list of steps like in the articles on Salsa or Argentine Tango. There won't be any talk about which foot goes where, just some explanation on what's what. Squidfryerchef 05:42, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Rock steps on beats 1 and 3?!?

Article currently states: "Despite the differing order, the rock step is always taken on beats 1 or 3 of the music."

This seems incorrect to me, but maybe I'm thinking about it in a different way...

1: step

2: step

3: rock step (ok)

4: step

1: step

2: rock step (this isn't 1 or 3!)

3: step

4: step

etc

Since the dance is in 6 and the music is in 4, the rock step necessarily will rotate through all the beats. Right? Cln23 21:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if you dance just 6-count patterns, then for 4-count music the rock step will cycle through all 4 beats. I think that the section meant to imply that when you start on the 1, then the rock step falls on the 1 for "rock step, step, step", and the rock step falls on 3 for "step, step, rock step". Perhaps the article wording needs to be changed to be clearer.

Version 1: "step, step, rock step", starting on 1:

1: step

2: step

3: rock step

Version 2: "rock step, step, step", starting on 1:

1: rock step

2: step

3: step

--Ben James Ben 01:30, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

No you are both wrong. The rock step is always on 1 or 3. I will demonstrate in East Coast Timing and then in Single time.

Music beats (in fours):	1		2		3		4		1		2		3		4		1		2		3		4
Music beat incremental:	1		2		3		4		5		6		7		8		9		10		11		12
East Coast Step Timing:	1	a	2		3	a	4		5		6		1	a	2		3	a	4		5		6

You can see that the first triple step starts on 1a2 the second is 3a4 then a rock step on 5, 6. Further note that 6 (the number of beats in the basic step) and 4 (number of beats in a bar) both are divisible by 12. This mean that in two six counts the cycle repeats exactly where it started so you do not cycle though every step. There is the choice to start with triples or with a rock step, however if you check the above chart where a rockstep starts on a 1, 2 you can see that the pattern progresses and wraps back around. The choice of starting with a triple or a rock step does have musical consequences as music has phrasing with hits that often happen on 12, or 24 or 36... this means that if you chose to start with a rock step you will probably find yourself on a rock step on every new phrase, while if you start with a triple you will have triples to work with. The triple is more flexible, so you can change your foot work right at the star of the musical change instead of having to wait two beats to catch it.

In Single time the triple steps are replaced by single steps, so two beats of music are used for one step.

What you say could be true of a rarely used form which where I am is called "even time jive" where one step is taken on every beat but it is very rarely used and only when people aren't being serious.

--Quaternionic (talk) 04:45, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Revision

I don't like the format that the page currently has, especially with step, step (my biggest pet peeve of an instructor). Will it the order matter whether I list the Rock Step first or last when I decide to make changes? MMetro (talk) 22:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Revisions: 22-March 2008

I was bold today. I added four external references that make the article verifiable, and corrected the article based on these references. Jazzdanse (talk) 18:49, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I also merged Eastern Swing with this article because Eastern Swing is simply another (earlier) name for East Coast Swing: See old talk-page here. This article was previously edited to encompass the content removed from Eastern Swing. The following four citations show that Eastern Swing is simply a variant name for East Coast Swing. Eastern Swing was an earlier name used for the now popular East Coast Swing, just as Western Swing was the earlier name given to the present day West Coast Swing. Jazzdanse (talk) 18:49, 22 March 2008 (UTC)A good song to dance swing in the holiday seasons is "Gettin in the Mood (For Christmas)"

Additional work needed:

This article needs to have basic techniques explained for Triple-step swing and for Double-step (tap-step) swing. Especially since Triple-step swing is currently the most popular style of East Coast Swing. It is inadequate to only explain technique for Single-step Swing. I hope to make those revisions myself in the near future, but if anyone else feels up to the task, please help us out. Jazzdanse (talk) 18:49, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Revision

The statement Ballroom dancers and instructors often mistakenly believe that East Coast Swing evolved from Foxtrot is at best counter-intuitive, and it is not supported by the reference attached to it. (The referenced document does not mention foxtrot at all.) It appears that the sole purpose of this statement is to belittle ballroom dancers. It should be removed.

Dave Cornutt (talk) 02:22, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Lindy hop which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 07:29, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Lindy Hop which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 17:44, 27 June 2015 (UTC)