Talk:EDSA/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about EDSA. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

A Template for EDSA and the revolutions?

I just thought that it might be a good idea since EDSA is not just a major road but a significant place in modern Philippine history.

Tell me what you think guys. Feel free to add any other places/events which you think might be significant. æt ə rnal ðrAعon 08:40, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Recent changes

The recent changes in the article is a response to the Road Article Structure of Wikipedia:WikiProject Highways. The Intersection List, however, is referenced on a 1991-dated map. Please improve that section by placing up-to-date information. Please also add good images for the intersections of EDSA. Kj plma (talk) 04:18, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Epifanio de los Santos Avenue/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Imzadi1979 (talk · contribs) 08:46, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

While not part of the criteria, there are disambiguation links and dead external links that can and should be resolved.

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
I've skimmed through the text briefly, and it needs to be copy edited. There are issues with common nouns appearing capitalized (usually cases where linked words aren't reduced to all lower-case text). There are additional sentences where subject–verb agreement is violated; the subject is singular but the noun is plural or vice versa. There are examples where distances are used as adjectives, but aren't in the adjective form. For example, "The 23.8 kilometres (14.8 mi) portion of the road..." should be "The 23.8-kilometre (14.8 mi) portion of the road..." In terms of layout, headings should be in Sentence case, not Title Case. So "Route Description" should really be "Route description" and so on. The subject of the article should not be repeated in the headings as well. The two junction list tables should be combined together, and although the GA criteria does not require it, that merged table should comply with MOS:RJL. (It does not.) There is inappropriate usage of boldface text, which should be limited to the subject and alternate names in the lead section.
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
Whole sections of the article are unreferenced, which isn't a good thing. Additionally, there is a citation needed tag present. Footnote 7 8 is to a blog, which is not a reliable source. This is a major concern because this is the source used for the origins of the name of the roadway, and the title of the article. It would also be nice, but not required for GA status, to have all of the citations formatting in a consistent style. Footnote 18 is used to source the information about the filming location for The Bourne Legacy, but in digging through the website, I found the production notes which does not specify any more detail than the fact that the movie was filmed in Manilla.
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
There is an expansion tag present for the "List of notable incidents and accidents along EDSA" section.
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
The article is still being updated by the nominator. Over 4K of new wikicode was added while I started this review. Please "finalize" the article to a version you'd like to have reviewed. Otherwise, the article is a bit of a moving target and hard to review.
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
File:Epifanio de los Santos as a young man.jpg to be in "the public domain because its copyright has expired in the United States and those countries with a copyright term of no more than the life of the author plus 100 years." No author has been given, so I cannot verify the veracity of that claim. File:EDSA Revolution pic1.jpg is a fair-use image without a rationale for usage in this article. The same goes for File:EDSA 2.jpg. fair-use rationales for this article must be provided, or the images must be removed. Additionally, please provide captions for the images in the gallery.
Overall:
Pass/Fail:
I haven't checked all of the criteria; criteria 3b and 4 are both unchecked. The remainder all fail, and given that someone will have to do research to identify sources for a great majority of the article, I don't believe that the standard seven-day hold period would be enough time. The article should be in decent shape in terms of the research and sourcing before checking the prose since the article could need to be rewritten to accommodate the research. Regrettable, I must fail the nomination at this time. Imzadi 1979 → 09:30, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Combine the two tables

Please combine the two intersection tables and make them follow MOS:RJL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.84.162.233 (talk) 12:03, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Requested move (1)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved to EDSA (road). Disambiguation needed, since it's an acronym and a dab page now exists. Miniapolis 14:14, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Epifanio de los Santos Avenue → EDSA (if the road is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC) or EDSA (road) (if the road is not the primary topic) – Plainly put, "Epifanio de los Santos Avenue" has never been the most common name of this road, except probably before the first few weeks before someone came up with "EDSA". Even the street signs refer to "EDSA" and not "Epifanio de los Santos Ave." –H T D 16:00, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Oppose. This is clearly going to create a domino effect on related articles that will just tear this whole wikipedia apart. Acronyms are common in the Philippines i know but that doesn't mean they should take precedence over their official name, albeit longer and are lesser known. But that's exactly what wikipedia is for, to educate first and foremost. I'm telling you this would affect the articles on NLEX, SLEX, SCTEX, STAR Tollway, CAVITEX and maybe even extend to other places like GMA, Cavite, Gensan, ComVal and Igacos, Davao del Norte. I mean who knew the GMA that you see in street signs all over Cavite was actually General Mariano Alvarez? Gensan is starting to replace General Santos in common usage. And practically all the different media refers to Samal Island in Davao as Igacos now. It's sick. -RioHondo (talk) 18:58, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Heh. I saw that media report on "IGACOS" and if weren't for Wikipedia, I wouldn't know where/what that was. However, unlike, NLEX, SLEX, GenSan, ComVal and even the likes of CALABARZON and MIMAROPA, most people know what those mean; even the new "CAVITEX" screams "Cavite Expressway". In fact, for example, most news reports will say "North Luzon Expressway" somewhere at the start, then use "NLEX" the rest of the way, same for GMA Cavite (always "GMA Cavite", there are far too many GMAs). No worries on NLEX, SLEX, SCTEX, CAVITEX, GMA, Cavite, Gensan, and ComVal... but Igacos, Davao del Norte should really be Samal, Davao del Norte. "IGACOS" violates several laws in positioning (marketing) that is better served by using "Samal".

However, not too many people know what "STAR" in "STAR Tollway" means; I doubt people don't even realize it's an acronym! Same case for "TEAM Unity" (as opposed to "Team PNoy"), as "TEAM" supposedly meant for "Together Everybody Achieves More" but most people don't know that. This is not in the same case as "EDSA" (vs. STAR Tollway, as most people already know that "EDSA" stands for something, perhaps they even know what it means), but in most news reports, it doesn't start as "There's a 3-vehicle collision at the Epifanio de los Santos Avenue"; it's always "There's a 3-vehicle collision at EDSA".

Wikipedia is for educating people by reading the text, not by looking at the article title then moving on with their lives. Following WP:NC doesn't make anyone stupid: it's as if I get 0.1% stupider if I go to Bill Clinton instead of William Jefferson Clinton. –H T D 19:13, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Some page view stats:

Generally, a redirect should only have a tiny percentage of page views (or in this case, page "hits") vs. the article it is directing to. About less than 10%. These stats (from the last 30 days) are very telling:

Redirect	Percent of hits vs views of main article
EDSA	24%
NLEX	8%
USA	6%
SLEX	5%
UK	5%
EU	4%

Almost a quarter of the people that reach this article were redirected from EDSA. That's a lot. The readers know from the get-go what those acronyms mean, except for EDSA. You can make a case for "NBA" and "NFL" (30% of hits vs. views), but everyone who consciously searched for those two knows what the "NBA" and "NFL" are. However, unlike "NBA" not too many know what "UEFA" and "CONCACAF" mean (even amongst followers of football), so they're titled in their respective acronyms. –H T D 19:34, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

It will set a bad precedent, that's all I'm saying. And I don't want to compare sports leagues or other commercial entities, pop icons like Bill Clinton included, with geographical ones (like roads and other places) as they go by different naming conventions (i.e, place names are more permanent-they don't die lol). I dunno, thats just how I see it. Like you said, Samal will always be Samal even when people call it something else (by its acronym or nick). Cheers! --RioHondo (talk) 16:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

How can renaming the article about EDSA into "EDSA" that follows WP:NC ever be bad precedent? We already have precedent, anyway: There's a reason why "Avenue of the Americas" is at "Sixth Avenue (Manhattan)". If ever it is proven that there other EDSAs elsewhere deserve WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, or at the very least, makes the article about this EDSA not a primary topic, this should still be moved to "EDSA (road)". Place names aren't exactly permanent, such as Azcarraga which became Recto Ave., for example.

As for IGACOS and Samal, I'd suspect the politicians did really want a catchy acronym all along -- hence ICAGOS -- as compared to EDSA (<Name of person> "Avenue", the most generic of street names; "EDSA" was coincidental, unless they looked for someone with an "EDS" initials). Good thing "SCOM" hasn't caught on with the people of the Science City of Munoz. –H T D 18:11, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't it take an act of Congress or a city ordinance at the very least for a street/road to be renamed? Hence, like the names of cities and municipalities in the country, we can't just retitle their articles and abbreviate them all because of convenience or popularity. And that's what I meant by place names being "more permanent". 6th Ave has always been 6th Ave and the name "Avenue of the Americas" was only added as a sort of nickname or alternative. The better analogy would be like FDR Drive also in NY, or Mass Ave elsewhere in the US that have retained their long titles despite their unpopularity among locals. Cos roads like place names are legislated and are officially adopted, they don't just give in to the "popular thing". :) -- RioHondo (talk) 12:06, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

According to Sixth Avenue (Manhattan), "Avenue of the Americas" is the official name. It was renamed by the City Council.

There had been similar discussions of moving not only street names but anything else (except articles about people) to the most popular "shortcut" names (the 6th Ave/Ave of the Americas analogy is different). The results have not always been consistent, but what is consistent is if the public actually knows what the official long name, the official long name is used. Hence, U.S. Route 66 is there, and not at "US 66", since the public presumably knows that the official name of "US 66" is "US Route 66." This is similar to your FDR Drive; practically every motorist knows who "FDR" is; even Filipinos made that into "FVR". This is the analogy of keeping the NBA article at "National Basketball Association" instead of moving it to NBA. Same with the likes of EU/European Union, QC/Quezon City, etc.

This is different when the public doesn't know what the official long name is; indeed, this is the most cases on articles about people, acronyms that are from a foreign language, or the meaning has been buried in history or are simply too obscure. This is the case in FIFA, Bill Clinton, Interpol, laser and even FHM. The case of EDSA is similar as the public does not know, or at the very most, would have to dredge it from the recesses of their mind to tell someone for whom was EDSA named after, unless of course you're into that type of stuff.

Nevertheless, the official name given by the legislature isn't always the article title. The Samal City Charter pretty much states that the name of the place is "The Island Garden City of Samal," yet the article's at Samal, Davao del Norte. We should give in to the popular thing. –H T D 15:06, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

–H T D 15:06, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Every taxi driver in the metro knows who or what E.D.S.A. is. Practically every commuter too from Pasay/Makati all the way to Ortigas and QC is aware of the name behind this fraffic-laden road. Especially after the extensive coverage and publicity it generated during the 2009-2010 debate on renaming Edsa after Cory(which also failed). There's also the 1986 and 2001 Edsa revolution to remind them who EDS is. The only ones complaining are probably recent migrants or people totally clueless of what's happening all over the Metro. I mean, Epifanio de los Santos is more popular than some might think. It's not like V. Mapa or AH Lacson or E Rodriguez, whose first name people wouldn't prolly even guess.--RioHondo (talk)<

Hmmm... perhaps on that week when the news erupted, everyone knew who Epifanio de los Santos is. After the issue died down, it went back to normal, where Epifanio de los Santos went back to becoming anonymous. Even at the height of the issue, no one started calling EDSA on its full name. However, Arsenio Lacson who is still known by old Manila residents; not much for the newer generations or the transplants, though; Eulogio Rodriguez's popularity is even worse than Lacson amongst Manila transplants. That's why if we're having articles on those two streets, it's "A.H. Lacson Avenue" (or even "Lacson Avenue") and "E. Rodriguez Avenue". Plus, Lacson and Rodriguez had some popularity at the height of their careers; the former was the Rodrigo Duterte of Manila during the 3rd Republic, and the latter is the longest-serving Senate President. It's a pity the Third Republic is pretty much ignored in Philippine history. It's as if history is 45% about the Philippine Revolution and 45% martial law... At least this is worse than "J. Ruiz", as it turns out they haven't found out what "J" actually means! I'm betting that less than 5 in 100 will know what "C" in "C5" actually means. If it weren't for Wikipedia, I wouldn't.

Plus, the fact that 2001 EDSA Revolution is there instead at 2001 Epifanio de los Santos Avenue Revolution is very telling. –H T D 15:51, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

That's exactly what i fear would happen when we give in to this trend of abbreviating and acronymizing everything! We wouldn't want Edsa to become a J Ruiz one day.. Btw thats one of the reasons why I came up with these articles: List of eponymous streets in Manila and List of renamed streets in Manila. I'd say stick to the status quo. FDR, EDSA, PIE(Singapore), The Strip (Las Vegas), we all have our own little pet names for our cities main streets, but ones that shouldn't be in the books (for posterity at least). --RioHondo (talk) 16:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

In defense of J. Ruiz, apparently they haven't forgot what "J" meant: it's "Juan"; the guy was just sitting there, and was "recruited" to be with the Katipuneros that charged into where is the Pinaglabanan Shrine now. (See this.) People know what "FDR" means, dunno for "PIE" and Singaporeans, but judging the NLEX/SLEX example, the public may know what "PIE" means. "The Strip" is actually an informal name; the article's at "Las Vegas Strip", so it's not a major change. Unlike you're other examples, very, very few know what "EDSA" means. –H T D 16:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

The case of EDSA being acronymized is not a bad thing. No one will argue that laser is a bad thing. EDSA is the most prevalent name; "Epifanio de los Santos Avenue" is almost never used in everyday life. –H T D 16:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

(Reindent): The gist of my argument is actually very simple: if the people know the long name of something use it as the article title. If it isn't, use the most popular name. Let's use the "does the people know what ____ means?" test:

ComVal? Yes; so it's at Compostela Valley.
GMA Cavite? Yes; so it's at General Mariano Alvarez, Cavite.
FDR? Yes; so it's at Franklin D. Roosevelt.
SLEX? Yes; so it's at South Luzon Expressway.
UK? Yes; so it's at United Kingdom.
US 66? Yes; so it's at U.S. Route 66.
FIFA? No; so it's at FIFA.
GQ? No; so it's at GQ.
Laser? No; so it's at Laser.
M15? No; so it's at MI5.
EDSA? No; so it should be at EDSA.

So yes, if someone will make an article about J. Ruiz Street, it should be at "J. Ruiz Street" and not at "Juan Ruiz Street". Wikipedia should not blaze the trail for correct usage; it merely follows current usage, whether it is wrong in the eyes of some people. –H T D 16:41, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

That's very arbitrary, that's all I can say. It depends on who you ask, like if i go to Manhattan and ask the younger residents there, theyd probably wouldnt know or wouldnt even care and give you this weird look, same when you go to Harlem or Washington Hts or the Bronx. I mean we filipinos we cant be more naive or apathetic than the young generation of yanks. Teehee! Btw, thanks for the tidbit on J. Ruiz. Cheers!--RioHondo (talk) 16:54, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Well of course it depends on who you ask. It's like asking people walking outside Yankee Stadium if the Red Sox sucks, 100% scream "yes". If you'd get a more balanced sample nationwide, the result won't be as one-sided. This is similar to the newer generations/transplants example I gave above.

Just to prove further that no one knows, or more appropriately, no one cares about what EDSA means, take a look at this news road accident reports, vs. accidents on NLEX:

Now for NLEX:

Interestingly, GMA News bucked the trend. On most of its EDSA accident reports, it always spells out what "EDSA" means.

What does this mean? One or more of the following: The WP:RS...

...assumes the public knows what EDSA means.
...assumes the public doesn't care about what EDSA means.
...assumes the meaning of EDSA isn't important for the public to understand the story.

I do want to know how media from outside the Metro handles this. Here's one from Reuters:

Traffic on the northbound lanes of the EDSA highway came to a standstill as investigators searched for evidence...

Now does it make me stupid if the article name is at EDSA? No, but at the current title, it is unrecognizable for me, at least on first glance. I typed "EDSA", I expected an article about "EDSA", everyone knows it is called "EDSA" but I arrived at "Epifanio de los Santos Avenue???" Ah wait, my teacher taught me way back in third grade that EDSA was named after this guy! That violates WP:NC: Article titles should be recognizable to readers. –H T D 17:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Hah, this actually reminds me of one of those episodes from The Tonight Show with Jay Leno and Ellen, where they go around LA or New York and ask random questions to people similar to this. Like Jay Leno would go, who is FDR, do you know what FDR in FDR Drive is? Its always funny when he does that and only 1 or 2 get it right (who then gets a price and/or kiss from Leno) hehe! Ah yea, i learned that in fifth grade that FDR was actually a president named Frank Dwight Roosevelt! Lol, that's America for you. :) Btw, most media reporting on Edsa has Epifanio delos Santos in the inline text, its but natural. RioHondo (talk) 17:32, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Having the right answer isn't funny, so naturally, that's not shown on broadcasts. Who knows how many actually were right.

As for having "Epifanio delos Santos" in the inline text, on the sources I linked above, none mentioned what "EDSA" means, while all mentioned that "North Luzon Expressway" will be called as "NLEX" in the rest of the article for brevity. It is natural for the media (local or foreign, except for GMA News lol) not to say what "EDSA" means in the inline text. –H T D 17:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Having lived in New York, i know it's not all show and that there is growing apathy and plain ignorance in the streets. But anyway, i still maintain my position and that Epifanio delos Santos Avenue is fine where it is. Peace out! -RioHondo (talk) 17:46, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

If the article title being an outright violation of what WP:NC stands for, which is "Article titles should be recognizable to readers" is fine, well, something's gotta be wrong here.

If you, your friends, and the people you claim to live in your city don't know who FDR, the longest-serving U.S. president, is, in "FDR Drive", something's terribly wrong with that, too. I'd probably support a move to "FDR Drive", though, as looking at local news sources, most (if not all) don't use "Franklin D. Roosevelt East River Drive". That way, FDR can live anonymously ever after. It's quite different from the man behind "EDSA", who was more of a background guy. –H T D 18:01, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Oppose. EDSA as an acronym has several other meanings in other countries: for me tonight (because these things change depending on when and from where you check), none of the first 10 Google hits for EDSA relate to the Avenue. There is currently a redirect from EDSA to the Avenue: there may be a case for making that a disambiguation page, but for now, anyone looking for EDSA is brought right here. No fix needed. Brocach (talk) 23:13, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

If there are several EDSAs that can claim WP:PRIMARYTOPIC why does EDSA (disambiguation) does not exist? –H T D 03:27, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

It seems that the most popular "EDSA"s aside from the road are the European Dental Students Association, the European Down Syndrome Association, the Edmonton and District Soccer Association, Emil Dale's Performing Arts School and EDSA Landscape, all red links. This is not the most compelling of arguments, especially so since the other EDSAs are either from Europe (incl. the UK) and Canada, which should provide a bounty of WP:RS that can be used to build articles. If no one bothers to write about them in 2013, it's quite telling that these EDSAs may not be even notable for a full-fledged article. –H T D 03:36, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.