Talk:Dutch name

Image with ugly font removed

Please do not reinstate the image which contains only a text table. It forces a font upon the user, and even data that isn't going to change very much should be editable for layout and similar matters. Rex, you are acting unwiki-like. Please stop that. – gpvos (talk)

I merely reinstated the image once, with the summary "esthetics do matter.Also, this information is unlikely to change in the next 50 years" qne then when you put it back again I did not touch it anymore. Would you please explain what's so "unwiki-like" about that?!

 Rex  09:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I apologise, and also for the times I was unpolite to you earlier. You are listening to arguments in this case, so I retract my statement above. Some things that are utterly obvious to me aren't obvious to others; I know this, but it's hard to not get irritated sometimes. I have now browsed around a bit in Category:Wikipedia image help and related places, and there doesn't seem to be a guideline on this; maybe I should add one. – gpvos (talk) 13:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

You could try that yeah, but in that case you should prepare for a lot more "trouble". Normally before you can add a tiny little guideline you'll need to fight your way through wikiburucracy ;-)  Rex  13:52, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorting prefixes

Wikipedia:Categorization_of_people#Ordering_names_in_a_category seems to contradict this article. It suggests sorting Van Basten under V and not B.

I'm asking, because there's an argument going on about sorting names of Theo de Raadt and Guido van Rossum, famed programmers.

See Template talk:FOSS celeb and Talk:Theo de Raadt.

Any professional help appreciated. --Amir E. Aharoni 08:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Well thanks goodness I do not have a name with a prefix, as Dutch names in English directories (e.g. reference lists of scientific papers) tend to be ordered on the full name including all prefixes (Van Rijn would be ordered under 'V'). This can easily be confusing if Dutch people appear in both Dutch and English directories. There is nothing to it, it is just how it is: In Dutch directories ignore prefix, in English use it. Very useful knowledge for English tourists, when going through a Dutch phonebook looking for a mr Van der Putten look under P (as both Van and der are prefixes)...... (Added something like that to article text).Arnoutf 21:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Huge misunderstanding: You are here on the talk page of a genuine article, on the subject of how surnames may be handled by Dutch people. Just like an article on so-called French fries explains how Belgians get their reputation on their national dish. This is not some Wikipedia style guide for ordering names. The French fries article is not a directive for Wikipedian cooking either. The article has nothing to say – and it does not say – how one should handle Dutch names on the English Wikipedia. Besides the guide line mentioned on the top line of this here section, for a more in-depth discussion on sorting names of people, see several sections (Alphabetical sort till (for now) finally Analphabetism) in Template Talk:FOSS celeb. — SomeHuman 24 Aug2006 18:53 (UTC)

Dutch names are sorted the same way as other western names.

First, find the boundary between a) either the last given name, or the last prefix of the family name and b) the family name.

Then swap the two parts, insert a comma and sort alphabetically. The family names and given names are sorted separately.

So "Rembrandt van Rijn" becomes "Rijn, Rembrandt van" before sorting.

This is not unique to Dutch names. This procedure is used in other countries as well. Note also that the Dutch often use this procedure with foreign names containing prefixes as well. "Hercule de la Croix" thus sorts as "Croix, Hercule de la" and "George of Canterbury" becomes "Canterbury, George of".

One caveat: sometimes prefixes are molten into the name and not split of before sorting. This is quite rare, and always reflected in the spelling. Sometimes both variants exist, e.g. "van der Veen" versus "Vanderveen" and "de la Croix" verses "Delacroix". Shinobu 23:56, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Gerbrant aka Shinobu's interpretation of the family name is particularly Dutch. In for instance German, Flemish and French names, there are often blanks between parts of the family name, as in Dutch. What I thus referred to as prefixes are however, always as much part of the family name as anything that follows and cannot be split off.

Only Dutch people might come up with "Croix, Hercule de la"; in French lists, it will be "de la Croix, Hercule". I do not know a family name "of Canterbury" and assume this to be a title, which might be inherited but not become widespread over a multitude of branches during following generations. In fact, that's what the article is all about: Dutch have a peculiar way of sorting names. My argument is, that the existence of an article about this Dutch habit, is not an authorisation to breach standards set by Wikipedia style guides on sorting names, Dutch or not.

On the occasional usage of 'Dutch' style sorting in other countries, in particular in Belgium, and in fact even demonstrating its not so overly prevalent usage in the Netherlands, please follow the link to the talk page in my above comment. — SomeHuman 26 Aug2006 02:33 (UTC)

@not so overly prevalent usage in the Netherlands: surely you're joking. The sort order described is the only sort order in wide use in the Netherlands. I'm not really into the discussion on how Dutch names should be sorted on Wikipedia, you can fight that out amongs yourselves. Shinobu 20:02, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

There's no fight any more, I guess. If you follow the link as I suggested, and read how that search was done, the fact remains that only 50% of the lists written in Dutch language on the .nl domain of the Netherlands and handling mainly Dutch surnames sorted the 'Dutch' way. I assume the obvious advantages of that method are not present for electronically sorted lists, and thus manual filing systems and handwritten address/phone books would still give a very different ratio. But for how long, or... a Dutch tradition endangered by globalisation? — SomeHuman 26 Aug2006 21:46 (UTC)

Probably not. Paper lists become totally unusable if prefixes are not split off, and as software becomes increasingly easy to use and versatile, the number of wrongly sorted electronic lists will decrease over time. Unless the lists are not meant to be flipped through, possibly. E.g. a database that is intended to be queried will probably be keyed, possibly on all substrings. Over and out. Shinobu 00:19, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

As a Dutchman, I believe I can say that the Dutch way of sorting surnames is very much alive and regarded as standard in the Netherlands, but not so in Belgium, where prefixes such as "Van der" are usually taken as a fixed part of the name. The article should make this clear. Rp (talk) 00:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe someday it will change, nowadays in Dutch we (I am Dutch) get troubles with foreign names, not only the above mentioned, but what to do with say Moroccon names like El Khatabbi, El-Khatabbi or al-Sawad etc. And in this names I can still see what's the prefix. I wouldn't mind sorting simply on the first letter of the last name, including prefixes. I myself do it already several years.Knillis (talk) 21:30, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

It is not really rare: "Van der" became "vander" and finally the true prefix (because true affixes are part of the name) Ver- as in Verkerk, Versluis, Verbruggen etc. Te process is known as contraction (grammar). Ereunetes (talk) 00:14, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

The (dutch) name sorting algorithm is mentioned and explained twice in the article. Once should be enough ?

Achternaam

Achternaam doesn't literally mean "aftername"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Äpple (talk • contribs)

Not literally, because that would be "nanaam". Achternaam would be "behindname" literally.

Rex 14:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Surname is the word. Rp (talk) 00:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

GA is failed

As of 30 October 2006, per WP:WIAGA, I made a speedy failing of this article for GA, because of the following reasons:

1. Lead section is not enough, per WP:LS.
2. There is no reference in this article. The list in the References section is basically External Links, not citations.

Whenever the above matters are resolved, you can renominate this article again. If you feel disagree with this review, then you can submit this article for re-review. — Indon (reply) — 15:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Question

I never understand how to add a query or "new" item... I looked up this article on Dutch and Flemish surnames because I have observed among my Flemish friends a tendancy to use two surnames; to combine the surnames of the father and mother. As I myself live in Spain; I hypothesized that this tendancy might have arisen during the period in which the "low countries" were Spanish possessions. I am sorry to see that the use of the two surnames is barely touched upon and that the possible relation between it and the "Spanish period" of Low Countries history is not addressed; even if only to be discounted as a fallacy. I'll look back in the future and see if anyone has noticed this query, and/or replied to it. Sorry. 81.43.78.61 23:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Catanea

Are you sure you aren' t confusing ' tussenvoegsels' with surnames? For exmaple in [...] Vander Berg, " Vander" is not a surname. Rex 08:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

A late reply, but anyway... I think our Spanish friend is referring to Miss Jansen marrying Mr Smit and becoming Mrs Smit-Jansen. In Dutch-speaking areas, this is only common for women after marriage; in the (far) past, Mrs Smit may have been the only socially acceptable choice, nowadays one would see (relatively) more often that a woman keeps her maiden name after marriage, ie. Mrs Jansen in this case. I think the surnames section sufficiently mentions this now. In the Netherlands, this is not commonly thought to be connected with the Spanish times as far as I know; at least, I have never heard people speculate about that. I would like to see references either for or against it before mentioning speculation about such a connection in the article. – gpvos (talk) 13:23, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Prevalence of Latin versions

I was wondering, what's with the prevalences of Latin versions of names like, Paulus, Johannes, Cornelius? Arthurian Legend 00:27, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Answer: rare.

• As first names: Christian Latin surnames became popular around 1400 and have been popular ever since, but (like in English) mostly in shortened forms. E.g. Paulus, Petrus and Cornelius are extremely rare; Paul, Peter, Cor and Kees are extremely common.
• As last names: I don't know any Dutch with Latin first names as a last name. In general first names are rarely used as last names or vice versa. However around 1700 it was fairly popular to Latinise existing surnames, and some of those remain, e.g. Jansonius, Samplonius, Faber. Rp (talk) 00:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Names as Johannessen or Paulussen do exist, but rare.Knillis (talk) 21:30, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Answer: very common in people born before 1960 into Catholic families, very uncommon for all others. Jamesjohnmalcolm (talk) 22:59, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I was in a class in high school where one of my fellow students had the surname "Mevius". He was mercilessly bullied. Causal connection? Ereunetes (talk) 23:25, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

"Van" names after occupation???

The article states that Van names may refer to something other than a geographical indication, citing Van Bruggen as an example. I strongly doubt that (e.g. Bruggen is a town near Roermond, in an area where *every* place name has a corresponding Van surname associated with it) so I'd like to see some confirmation. Rp (talk) 00:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

You're right. Van Beek (brook) is another example. And there are probably many more. But where is the town Bruggen (bridges) named after?Knillis (talk) 21:30, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm confused also--"van Bruggen" seems to be given two origins: first as derived from an unmentioned verb relating to an occupation, and second as from Bruges. I always thought it was related to "brug" (bridge). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.163.117.21 (talk) 07:57, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

"Van" (including Van de, van der, van den, van 't) names refer, with very few exceptions, to a location. Van Bruggen simply means "from a town called Bruggen/Brugge", which usually means: Bruges. (Although the name of this city seems simply derived from the Dutch word *brug*, meaning "bridge", Dutch Wikipedia offers a Keltic explanation.) There is no verb "bruggen" in the Dutch language and no occupation connected with this word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Collideascope (talk • contribs) 18:34, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

How about "Van den Boogaardt", "Van de Kerkhof", "Van der Vaart" "Van de Munnikenhof"? Try this link Nederlandse familienamenbank De website is of course in Dutch but with the latest version of Google Chrome this is no problem: highlight a section of the text. Then right-click near, but not on, the highlighted text. A dropdown menu should show that gives the option to "translate to English" (if English is your default language). There should also open up a window after you have done that, that allows you to toggle between Dutch and English. Hope this is useful. Ereunetes (talk) 23:33, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

'

Why there's a space between van and 't (for example in van 't Hoff)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.51.22.38 (talk) 16:04, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Like 'cause it's two words mate, just as in "like 'cause it's two words". " 't " is short for "het" which means "the". C mon (talk) 16:28, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's a valid explanation. "Don't", "that's", "it's" are also basically two words: "do not", "that is", "it is", although there is no space in between "that" and "'s", etc... User:Brynnar/sig 07:16, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

It actually IS a valid explanation. In Dutch, unlike in English, abbreviated words are not glued to the following or preceding word. So we write `s avonds (not `savonds), maak 't 's effe (not maak't 'seffe). Do not make the mistake of applying English spelling rules to Dutch! - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 07:58, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

It's true about it being two words, but the English example used does not make sense. As you say, English spelling and grammar rules are not the same in Holland. User:Brynnar/sig 11

36, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

True.... But these are personal names. They're in the original Dutch and Dutch does not use two-word contractions. Moreover, the -n't contraction in English refers to '- not'. The 't in Dutch refers to 'het' (it). Not the the same thing. 88.159.240.142 (talk) 18:07, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Particles like 't and 's are grammatical contractions of the definite article het, and the declension des of de (the other definite article; it is the genitive) respectively. There is a spelling rule in Dutch that says that words starting with an apostrophe (like these examples and also the contraction 'k for ik) are never capitalized, not even at the start of a sentence, but that the next word is capitalized if that is appropriate. Examples: the name 't Hoen, 'sGravesande and this sentence: 'k Heb je lief, maar je weet 't niet Ereunetes (talk) 23:43, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

"recent introduction in 1811"

The relatively recent introduction of Dutch surnames is a bit of a myth, and unfortunately it is quite widespread even among Dutch people. The reality is that from 1811 is has been obligatory to register a surname with the authorities. However, that does not mean that people didn't have surnames at all before then. Church records and other documents show that most people's surnames go back several hundred years. I did some family research and found that all (okay, in truth I didn't go back all the way to the year 0) of my ancestors - even the most lowly paupers among them - already had fixed surnames a very long time before 1811. The article should probably reflect that the 1811 date refers only to the legal requirement to register a name. I don't really know how to put that in the article in clean English, so if someone can help rewrite that bit I would be grateful. Vlaflipje1982 (talk) 14:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

please also see the Dutch article covering this topic: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschiedenis_van_achternamen_in_Nederland and its source: http://www.naamkunde.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=119&Itemid=68 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kruijs (talk • contribs) 13:41, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Before 1811, people had surnames, but surnames had only started to become hereditary. 12:33, 4 December 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.155.69.109 (talk)

'of' double-barrelling

The footballer Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink has an unusual surname apparently formed by a merger of two farming families of equal importance. 'Of' roughly means 'or', so this is like a double-barelled name. Should this practice be mentioned in the article, how common is it?--MartinUK (talk) 16:43, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

This is rather rare, so if it is mentioned it should not get undue attention. Arnoutf (talk) 20:43, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

History of Dutch surnames

Can someone whose English is better than mine, edit this section and remove Naaktgeboren? This name originally was German, Nachgeboren, which means born posthumous, after the father had died. The Latin form exists too, Posthumus. Barbara Touburg (talk) 15:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

This is an interesting remark. Do you have a citation to prove it? If so, why don't you put it the article, appropriately referenced? Ereunetes (talk) 23:45, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't see why some translations of surnames need citation

I don't see why some translations of surnames need citation. A translation is a translation, or is it? There are more "citations needed" in this article of which I think are quite unnecessary. Example: If one states that a circle is round, would one need a citation as well? Concerning the indexing of Dutch surnames: Indeed, the Dutch indexing method applies to other European languages as well, hence "like in various other European languages" should be added to the section that explains how Dutch indexing of surnames is different from English indexing. I think this information is indeed interesting for non-Dutch speakers who try to find Dutch surnames in European indexes and Europeans who try to find Dutch surnames in English indexes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rolloos (talk • contribs) 08:40, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The citations are needed because some of these names have obvioulsy been misinterpreted. "Poepjes" has nothing to do with feces, it is a patronymic of Poepje = Poppo. The whole section about "funny" Napoleonic era names can go. It is a myth. http://www.naamkunde.net/?page_id=162

Vernoeming (talk) 06:57, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

There is a posh word for "indexing" and it is Collation. Ereunetes (talk) 23:47, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Huguenot name confusion

In the aftermath of the Huguenot flight from France and southern Belgium, many people took French names into Holland. The common prefix de in French (meaning "of") could easily be confused with the Dutch de ("the") in many (but not all) surnames.

Many names could be translated -- de la Rue becoming van der Straaten, de la Montagne becoming van den Berg.Pbrower2a (talk) 02:21, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Re: Stability

I disagree with the naming rules in the section Stability. Genealogical findings among about 4000 of my Dutch ancestors who lived during the 3 centuries leading up to 1945 make it absolutely clear that the rules were:

1. First-born son is named after paternal grandfather

2. First-born daughter is named after paternal (not maternal!) grandmother

3. (*) Second son is named after maternal grandfather

4. (*) Second daughter is named after maternal grandmother

5. (More often than not) Third son is named after father

6. (More often than not) Third daughter is named after mother

7. Subsequent children were often, but not strictly, named after uncles and aunts - there was some liberty of choice here.

(*) The infant mortality rate was high. If a son had died before his next brother was born, this younger brother was more often than not given the same name. The same goes, mutatis mutandis, for a daughter.

These rules were applied quite rigorously by my Protestant forebears (who number about 90% of them), which was a great help in tracing many of them. The app. 10% Catholics made it slightly more difficult because they often - but by no means always - gave their children more than one Christian name. (Some Protestants started doing this as well but only in recent times, i.e. from the 19th century onwards.)

The (more complicated) rules as mentioned in the extant text are nowhere in evidence among my ancestors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Collideascope (talk • contribs) 23:59, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

"but some verb-derived names that end in -en that often indicate occupations, like van Bruggen ("from Bruggen") for someone, or his family, coming from the city of Bruges (Dutch: "Brugge") in Belgium." This is contradictory. I'm quite willing to adjust this. Where do I insert Collideascope (talk) 23:01, 28 April 2012 (UTC)?

After a year of no comments at all I've decided to implement the alterations I suggested. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Collideascope (talk • contribs) 18:38, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

The "precedence rules" you refer to sometimes had unintended consequences. If a grandparent had many children, who also had many children the rules led to a surfeit of people with the same given and surnames. One had to distinguish between them and therefore the custom of giving patronymics developed, long after the use of "real" patronymics died out. So I have had great uncles that had "Gzn" or Hzn" behind their name (for" Gijsbrechtszoon" and Hendrikszoon" respectively). This is an important help to genealogists. Ereunetes (talk) 23:54, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Germanic period: combining name parts

The extant text reads:

"Combining these "parts" was used when the child was named after family or other relatives. For example the child would receive two parts from different family members, in this way a father named "Hildebrant" and a mother called "Gertrud" would call their son "Gerbrant" and their daughter "Hiltrud"."

This reads as if this name-combining was the usual thing. I very much doubt that. Examples of a contrary nature are easy to find, e.g. the hereditary AEthel- of the kings of England - and their daughters; the wholly male combinations of a.o. Chlodovech, Chil-, -bert, -rich of the early Merovingians; the lists of kings of the Goths.

The example given looks like wishful thinking to me. This manner of name-giving may have occurred, but it was by no means the standard. This text needs a verifiable source, some undisputed historical examples, or deletion. Collideascope (talk) 16:40, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

MOS needed

Please help with a thread in MOS talkpage? Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Dutch_and_German_surnames_van_.26_von ...JGVR (talk) 03:50, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Prefix vs. preposition vs. tussenvoegsel

For me as a Dutch reader, the text is confusing, partly because the issue of surname prefixes is dealt with twice, and partly because at least three different words are used for them: "prefix", "preposition", and "tussenvoegsel" (which is indeed the Dutch word for elements between a given name and an family name, but which also means "infix"). I suggest using only one good English term throughout the article, with possible reference to and explanation of the other terms, if necessary.Redav (talk) 12:19, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

And that good technical term is Affix, or rather separable affix But your point is well taken. The "van"s were originally, prepositions, but transitioned to being affixes (mostly prefixes, but also infixes, as in Van der Duyn van Maasdam) And "tussenvoegsel" should have been "voor-", "tussen-" and "achtervoegsel". The first and last translate to affix in my Dutch-English dictionary. But if you look into the current text version (March 2023) of Dutch name and Capitalization#Compound name you'll find that the problem has been taken care of. Ereunetes (talk) 00:02, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

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Name order in Tussenvoegsels section

A paragraph in the Tussenvoegsels section talks about the order of names, however it speaks of the order of precedence between the family name and the surname, which are the same thing. AI0867 (talk) 13:50, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Flemish ?

Almost nothing about Flemish names and surnames. Xx236 (talk) 11:30, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Quite! Why don't you solve this problem yourself? Everybody is entitled to put in well-referenced edits Ereunetes (talk) 00:04, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

I have no Idea about the problem, so I am asking for help. Xx236 (talk) 08:29, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

The problem is formally that there formally is no difference between "Dutch" and "Flemish" names. But it is of course true that certain names occur more often in the Netherlands than in Belgium and vice versa. This site may give useful information on the relative distribution Nederlandse Familienamenbank. The site is in Dutch but you can use Google Chrome for translation to English (highlight a section. Then right-click on the page. A dropdown menu will appear with an option to translate. Click that and the translation will miraculously appear). This is a sample page for the name "Van den Bossche" ("typically Flemish" in my biased view) Van den Bossche I hope this is useful Ereunetes (talk) 00:47, 28 March 2023 (UTC)