Talk:Durian/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

References

We've got to redo the references. Inline {{cite web}}? They're really really in a mess, and I'm worried it doesn't fulfill GA anymore. - SpLoT _{(*T* C+u+g+v)} 10:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

That problem seems to have been fixed now. Anything else? --BorgQueen 10:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Cultural influence edit

How is the mention of durians in Mario Sunshine any less relevant from a cultural standpoint than the longish text on durian-flavoured condoms? The weird yellow spiky fruits in the game may be the only contact many westerners ever get with the fruit, and they probably won't even find out about it. Why not mention it in this article? Khim1 16:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Way back when, I think I was the first person to put a bit of information about Super Mario Sunshine into this article. When it was removed, I decided I agreed: knowing that they were in the videogame does very little to increase what you know about this fruit. The durian-flavoured condoms material is also questionable. Perhaps a little less so, since it discusses a use the flavor of the fruit has been put to in the real world -- that's a big difference from it being some pixels in a videogame, to me. Put it this way: do you think cherry and pretzel should mention that they show up as items in Pac-Man? Where does that sort of thing end? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

This is of course entirely subjective and I'm not going to press the point. The thing I reacted to about this little tidbit when I first noticed it in the Wikipedia article was this: This is a game that reached a very wide audience all over the world, and it casually features a fruit that many or most non-asians have never heard about, and it does have some characteristics in the game that sets it apart from the other fruits (i.e. you can't lift it up and will get hurt if you try). No deep cultural philosophy, this, but I just thought that it was mildly entertaining. Of course, I am one of those who didn't have a clue what those things were when I played the game, and I didn't realize it until I read about it on Wikipedia. That is my rationale for wanting it left in the article. The durian flavoured condoms are a fun detail, too, but in my opinion this is better. Khim1 17:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

On that note, in Super Mario Sunshine, Yoshi turns purple when he eats a durian. --Candy-Panda 07:03, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

That's cute. --BorgQueen 07:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

OOT. i'm pretty sure that most Indonesian are familiar with the term "belah duren" (cutting the durian). IINM the word belah duren is usually related to some particular sexual activities...
just FYI... ;)
andry (talk) 12:15, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

EquatorialSky edits

User:EquatorialSky has made several questionable edits, claiming:

1. The Herman Vetterling quote is racist since it comments "on the savage nature of the Malays", but Vetterling made it clear that Malays running amok is because of the erotic properties of the durian fruit, not because of their inherent racial quality. That is not racist.
2. and cited his own interview, which is an original research. That is not allowed on Wikipedia. Please see WP:OR.

BorgQueen 09:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Reply by User:EquatorialSky: I think the Herman Vetterling quote is either a deliberate racial slur, or even if not intended to, would tend to give rise to the furtherance of racial prejudices. The offending sentence reads:

These erotomaniacs remind us of the Durian-eating Malays, who, because of the erotic properties of this fruit, become savage against anybody or anything that stands in their way of obtaining it.

The specific objections are:

1. It cannot be taken seriously and is not worthy of an article in Wikipedia, especially a featured article. It is obviously a gross exaggeration to say that persons of a certain race would become "savage" against others to obtain the fruit, meaning a lack of self-control leading to violence.
2. It is hearsay anyway and therefore unreliable, since the author does not have original knowledge of the matter but refers to "these erotomaniacs remind us of..." as the source of the purported information.
3. It is demeaning to a race to say that its members become "savage" against those who stand in their way of the fruit. The word "savage" has clear implications of being uncivilised and uncultured. Its use is all the more objectionable because the context is that of the uncontrolled desire to obtain a fruit for its erotic properties, and the use of violence to do so, i.e. a race of sexual maniacs.

Wikipedia is no place for the propogation of racial slurs and prejudices, by for example, whites against Asians. This is a clear example of it. Please allow it to be removed or raise the matter up to the higher editors for resolution since you have re-instated it. I am not a Malay, by the way.

In any event, what serious or significant contribution to knowledge would this sentence bring? Tks.

EquatorialSky 09:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, that was persuasive enough. The quote has been removed. Any further objections? --BorgQueen 10:11, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, tks. Let this discussion stand and remain for the record in case the offending quote is re-introduced in future by other users -- EquatorialSky 12:30, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Availability and prices of durians.

The following addition to the section on "Availability" which was written by myself was removed by BorgQueen for the stated reason that "The Singapore market price is uncited, not found in the reference quoted":

Prices of durians are relatively high as compared with other fruits. For example, in Singapore, the strong demand for high quality cultivars such as the D24, Sultan, and Mao Shan Wang has resulted in typical retail prices of between S$8 to S$15 (US$5 to US$10) per kilogram of whole fruit. With an average weight of about 1.5 kilograms, a durian fruit would therefore set the consumer back by about S$12 to S$22 (US$8 to US$15). The edible portion of the fruit, known as the aril (usually referred to as the "flesh" or or "pulp") only accounts for about 15-30% of the mass of the entire fruit. Many consumers in Singapore are nevertheless quite willing to spend up to around S$75 (US$50) in a single purchase of about half a dozen of the favoured fruit to be shared by family members.

First, the quoted reference (Michael Brown's article) is in relation to the sentence on the proportion of the edible aril to the fruit, not the market price.

As for citations on the market price, it is intended that the following newspaper article will be cited: http://www.stomp.com.sg/stfoodiesclub/taste/03/index.html This appeared in the Straits Times (Sunday) in its 6 August 2006 edition. This is the only broad-sheet general English daily in Singapore. The weblink is a reproduction of the article in the newspaper's online portal "Stomp".

As can be gleaned from the article, the market prices of high quality cultivars are indeed around S$8 to S$15 per kilogram as contended by myself, see the following sentence in the newspaper article: "Prices for mau shan wang, the flavour of the moment that has dethroned D24, range between $12 and $15 per kg, compared to $8 to $10 previously."

I hope that clears the objection, and intend to restore the removal. Any objections to this?

EquatorialSky 12:40, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the source. I restored the parts with proper citations. But I think the sentence "The durian is a seasonal fruit, whose season coincides with that of the mangosteen. It is therefore unlike some other non-seasonal tropical fruits such as the papaya which are available throughout the year." The durian is unlike the non-seasonal fruits in what sense? Its price or just the availability in general? It will need to be more specific. --BorgQueen 14:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok. On the question regarding the difference between the durian and rambutan, I thought it was quite clear from the run of the 3 sentences that the difference drawn is between availability throughout the year (non-seasonal) and availability only sometime in the year (seasonal). The 3 sentences are as follows:

The durian is a seasonal fruit, whose season coincides with that of the mangosteen. It is therefore unlike some other non-seasonal tropical fruits such as the papaya which are available throughout the year. In Peninsular Malaysia and Singapore, for example, the season for durians is typically from June to August.

To make it even clearer, how about something as follows:

''The durian is a seasonal fruit, unlike some other non-seasonal tropical fruits such as the papaya which are available throughout the year. In Peninsular Malaysia and Singapore, for example, the season for durians is typically from June to August. Its season coincides with that of another non-seasonal fruit, the mangosteen, with which it is often offered for sale together.

As for a reference to the co-incidence of seasons of the two fruits, I propose the following: http://infopedia.nlb.gov.sg/articles/SIP_172_2004-12-13.html ...where there is a sentence which reads: As the mangosteen and durian season coincide in Singapore, they are served as the perfect accompaniments.

EquatorialSky 23:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. The mangosteen being an accompaniment to durian is already mentioned in the citation #43, so I don't think we need to repeat it. By the way, I removed the sentence "in tropical Southeast Asia" from the cultivation section, since it is too broad and includes Thailand. --BorgQueen 00:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Customs - that durians have eyes, and beliefs

(1) BorgQueen on 09:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC) (above) had removed the following addition which I had made to the section on Durian customs:

"Indeed, a customary belief amongst many durian plantation owners in Malaysia and Singapore is that either the durian fruit or the tree itself has something akin to eyes by which it sees. It thereby deliberately avoids dropping rippened fruits when there are man and animals below so as not to cause injury."

The stated reason for the removal is that I had cited my own interview with plantation owners, and is therefore an original research which is not allowed on Wikipedia: WP:OR

Well, this is not research but personal knowledge of a matter, and I am not a researcher. Be that as it may, I agree to remove the reference to my interviews with the plantation owners. Instead, I propose using the following reference: http://www.asiafood.org/glossary_1.cfm?alpha=D&startno=27&endno=51 where it says:

"A common saying is 'a durian has eyes and can see where it is falling'. This is because (so the saying goes) the fruit never fall during daylight hours when people may be hurt by their size, vicious spines and the velocity gathered as they hurtle to earth, but rather in the wee hours when honest citizens certainly would not be prowling under durian trees."

I have heard this belief being told quite a few times before, and it is a very interesting point to add about the customary beliefs held by some in Southeast Asia on the durian, esp since it is a unique fruit in having very sharp and potentially dangerous thorns.

Can the removed sentences be restored?

If other users can find additional references, I would be glad to hear of it here, tks.

To off-set this belief, I also suggest adding the following extract written by Alfred Russel Wallace in The Malay Archipelago (1869) on the dangers of falling durians:

"The Durian is, however, sometimes dangerous. When the fruit begins to ripen it falls daily and almost hourly, and accidents not unfrequently happen to persons walking or working under the trees. When a Durian strikes a man in its fall, it produces a dreadful wound, the strong spines tearing open the flesh, while the blow itself is very heavy; but from this very circumstance death rarely ensues, the copious effusion of blood preventing the inflammation which might otherwise take place. A Dyak chief informed me that he had been struck down by a Durian falling on his head, which he thought would certainly have caused his death, yet he recovered in a very short time."

(found at: http://www.papuaweb.org/dlib/bk/wallace/indo-malay.html )

(2) Next, I propose that this section be entilted "Customs and beliefs" as made by me in an earlier edit, rather than just "Customs". The word "customs" only refers to the conduct of persons (a verb, e.g. etiquette), whereas "belief" has a wider ambit to mean what people think of and believe in rather than just do.

EquatorialSky on 03:30 and 03:45, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. --BorgQueen 08:07, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Traditionally, durian is described as a "heaty" fruit by Malays -- overconsumption is said to prostrate the greedy (especially children) with raised body temperature, gas and nausea. Charming drawings of this affliction by the great Malay cartoonist Lat can be found in his book, "Kampung Boy." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.213.115.35 (talk) 09:32, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Unusually for a fruit tree, the durian grows from the trunk as opposed to from the outer branches or tips like most fruiting trees. After a fruit has fallen/been picked, it leaves a scar on the trunk which sort of resembles an eye. Perhaps this is the source of the above mentioned 'customs and beliefs' (though I don't imagine anyone seriously 'believes' they can see - perhaps myths and folklore would be a more appropriate title). Traveller palm (talk) 16:18, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Fruit or tree?

Is this an article on the fruit or the organism as a whole? It seems like it's about the fruit itself. In which case, there should be a separate, organismal article on the actual plant. Shrumster 05:28, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Most of the fruit articles discuss both. Badagnani 03:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems to be an entirely ethnobotanical article. Where is some information about the biology of this genus? Richard001 (talk) 09:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Photo of flower

This photo of a durian flower would be great to add to the article. Badagnani 03:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

What a beautiful picture with... a wrong license. We cannot use the non-commercial use only pictures. Thanks for your attempt anyway. --BorgQueen 10:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC)