Talk:Dunnottar Castle

Dunnottar Castle has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
March 24, 2006	Peer review	Reviewed
December 13, 2012	Good article nominee	Listed

Current status: Good article

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Military history: Fortifications / British / European / Medieval

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Scotland Low‑importance

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Scottish Castles

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Merger

this is the way to do it...dunnottar is the best spelling, but the superior content is in the present dunnotar article....i will clean up and edit after the merge...Anlace 06:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

also the existing pic on dunnottar should survive as it is the best image Anlace 06:18, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the merge is a good idea, put the best article into the correctly spelled article. Thatcher131 04:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Peacock terms (and the opposite)

please explain in detail by line reference the tag or remove it at once...please post your reply here where it belongs not on my talk page... thank you Anlace 14:44, 11 March 2006 (UTC)e[reply]

Hi. Just to expand on the reasons for the NPOV tag - this article uses terms which appear to me to be out of place in a encyclopaedia article e.g. magnificent, stunning, brutality, inhumane. Should be fairly easy to fix SP-KP 18:14, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

do you have another word other than "brutality" for incinerating hundreds of people who are imprisoned

i cant think of a more accurate word (i am neither english or scottish and have no real point of view here)Anlace 22:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

whats a better word for treatment of men, women and children prisoners of all ages including many sick and elderly, when the captors deprive them of food, crowd them into a space of no more than one square meter per person, and force them to live in fecal matter up to their ankles for many months? the word "inhumane" comes to mind to me

what word would you suggest kpsp? be sure to be poitically correct now. Anlace 22:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Improvement suggestions

Hi Anlace, can I make some suggestions: (i) take a look at WP:PEACOCK - where you'll learn about the justification for avoiding "peacock terms", which I think applies in this case, and how you can re-word them to better fit with Wikipedia recommended style; (ii) on a re-reading, I also noticed squalid, tragic, a couple of importants and a breathtaking, all of which I think require attention - I won't re-insert the POV check tag just yet, I'll give you a chance to sort these issues out first SP-KP 22:51, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, you could try putting this article up for peer review, which should help you to get a broader range of opinions on how the article could be improved. Let me know if you need help with doing that. SP-KP 22:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Link error

I believe the link to Andrew Murray goes to wrong family member, it should go to his grandson Sir Andrew Murray, 4. lord of Bothwell, 3. regent of Scotland (1297 - 1338). --85.165.99.39 16:25, 18 March 2006 (UTC) Finn Bjo[reply]

made change as you suggested. now its of course a red link Anlace 00:27, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The name "dun" being Pictish for fort

Not so. It is Gaeilge (Irish) for fort. Very, very little of the Pictish language is extant. Fergananim 14:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

broadened reference to gaelic. there is actually considerable debate regarding how to term word origins this far back...blends of irish gaelic, scottish gaelic and pictic Anlace 15:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was under the impression that Gaelic was never a particularly important language in this area - I mean, it wasn't even widely spoken in the 15th century, let alone at the time of the Romans. Also, where did you get the information that the Roman camp was called Radex? The place is currently called Raedykes, which understandably could be a corruption of Radex, but I've never seen it spelled that way - and can't find any information to confirm it online. Have removed until it is more than conjecture. -taras 20:04, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No Adverts!

Janet Elaine Smith is married to Ivan Smith, the great-grandson of Carolyn (Keith) Smith, who was a direct descendent of Rev. James Keith, the first Congregational minister in Barnstable. Rev. James Keith was recruited by Rev. Increase Mather, when Keith was just a teenager and a graduate of Aberdeen University, which was founded by his ancestor, George Keith. Rev. Keith was a direct descendent of the Keiths of Inverugie Castle in Peterhead, Scotland, as well as (prior to that) the Keiths of Dunnottar Castle, where the Scottish regalia was hidden to protect it from being melted down by Oliver Cromwell in the British Civil War. Dunnottar Castle was the last stronghold to stand against the attacks of Cromwell.
Read more about Dunnotar in the historically accurate trilogy, Dunnotar, Marlybone, and Par for the Course, written by Janet Elaine Smith.

This is blatantly an advert for this persons books! Unless reasonable justification for keeping this paragraph in can be presented, it should be deleted. Wikipedia is a place for learning, not somewhere to drum up sales!I cannot begin to convey how disappointed and angry I am that wikipedia, a non-profit, public SERVICE is being exploited in such a manner.If no response/reasonable objection is made within three days(to give a fair chance)deletion will occur. Very, Very disappointed.*killerpsychobunny* 17:08, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In accordance with conversation with pages parent, this is gone. Ta much.*killerpsychobunny* 21:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Dunnottar Castle/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hchc2009 (talk · contribs) 08:07, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll read through today and start the review proper tonight. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:07, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looks really good. Some minor points below, will put on hold now. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:06, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work (really like the map by the way!). Passed at GA. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:56, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well-written:

(a) the prose is clear and concise, respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct;

Substantive points:

"Early Middle Ages" section. I found this a little hard to follow. I suspect it probably needs an explanatory sentence at the beginning, something like "It is uncertain when the first fortification at Dunnottar was constructed..." or something like that, to bind the rest of the sentences together.

Added an introductory half-sentence as you suggest, better? Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 15:17, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"William Keith completed construction of the tower house at Dunnottar, but was excommunicated on the basis of damaging consecrated ground, as previously the only building on the headland had been the parish church." - I didn't get this; wasn't there a castle and a castle church already on the site? Or was this just a cover story for the excommunication?

I didn't get this for a while either, but seems you're right, the church was not the only building on site. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 15:17, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Minor points:

First para of lead: two "largely"s in close succession. Worth linking Oliver Cromwell?
Second para of lead. Worth a comma after North Sea?
"Dunnottar's strategic location allowed its owners to control the coastal terrace between the North Sea cliffs and the hills of the Mounth, 3.5 kilometres (2.2 mi) inland, which enables access to and from the north-east of Scotland." The tense shifts here between the past and the current; it would probably read better it was "which enabled access to and from..." - i.e. past in both cases.
Probably worth linking gun port somewhere in the article. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:03, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All done except the last, as gun port is an article about ships.Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 15:17, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

Seems fine at this stage. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:50, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Factually accurate and verifiable:

(a) it provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout;

The ODNB citations all have double brackets, e.g. "((subscription or UK public library membership required))" Hchc2009 (talk) 07:50, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Should be fixed. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 15:17, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(b) it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines;

Seems fine at this stage. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:50, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not strictly counter to the GA guidelines, but "The cellar, located beneath the "King's Bedroom" in the 16th century castle buildings, has since become known as the "Whigs' Vault"."; "The dominant building, viewed from the land approach, is the 14th-century keep or tower house. The other principal buildings are the gatehouse; the chapel; and the 16th-century "palace" which incorporates the "Whigs' Vault"." and "A second access to the castle leads up from a rocky cove, the aperture to a marine cave on the eastern side of the Dunnottar cliffs. From here a steep path leads to the well-fortified postern gate, on the cliff top at the south-east corner of the headland." aren't referenced (not sure if this was deliberate or not). Hchc2009 (talk) 17:58, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, dealt with the first and last, the middle one is just an intro to the following paragraphs. Could possibly refer back to the listed building refs if necessary, but not really saying the same thing... Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 15:19, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(c) it contains no original research.

None found so far. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:58, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic;

It's a shame there's no plan of the castle. There's a PD 19th century plan of the castle on pg.563 [[1]]; I don't know how accurate it is though. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:50, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the pointe to MacGibbon and Ross, though I was already working on a less detailed but hopefully clearer map which is now in place. Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 15:19, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

All good. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:50, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each.

Neutral. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:55, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

Stable. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:55, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Illustrated, if possible, by images:

(a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content;

Tagged correctly. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:55, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

Relevant and captioned. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:55, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for the review. I finally tracked down a copy of W. D. Simpson's guide book, which has furnished a few additional details (like the fact that I had the postern in the wrong place!) But I think I have addressed the points you raise, let me know if you feel anything else needs doing. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 15:19, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinate error

{{geodata-check}} The following coordinate fixes are needed for —121.14.162.3 (talk) 16:52, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not done. You haven't specified what you think is in error, and the coordinates currently in the article appear to be correct. If you still think that there is an error in the article, please post here again, using the {{geodata-check}} template and explaining what error you perceive. Deor (talk) 20:17, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Dunnottar Castle/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

This article is not at all far off GA status. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 08:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 19:56, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

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Within the Kingdom of Ciricinn

Was a Dunottar (Dùn Fhoithear) a major fortress in the kingdom of Circinn? (Fordoun was recorded as being in Campo Girgin). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:B025:5400:C978:FE23:D86A:AD9B (talk) 01:49, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of clarity

1. "Simpson contends that these defences are "without exception the strongest in Scotland"".

Simpson who? Let's add a first name and some title like historian, analyst or whoever he/she is/was.

2."The east range has a larder, brewhouse and bakery at ground level, with a suite of apartments for the Countess above".

Countess who? Let's add some information to clarify.

ICE77 (talk) 02:10, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

An Editing Suggestion

Hello! I noticed that with the first line in the history section, it says this:

A chapel at Dunnottar is said to have been founded by St Ninian in the 5th century,[4] although it is not clear when the site was first fortified, but in any case the legend is late and highly implausible.

The way this is said makes the idea displayed not entirely clear; there are two different ideas trying to be displayed here. It should be split into two sentences with the first one ending at "...first fortified." This second part, "...in any case the legend is late and highly implausible," makes the source seem flippant. It is good to state the situation how it is, that the source might not be wholly trustworthy, but the way this is said makes it seem opinionated.

Let me know if there's any questions! Kutekenzz (talk) 00:31, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]