Talk:Dumbarton/Archives/2018 1

Dumbarton was not Alcluith

Sorry I know this is a bit controversial but Dumbarton was not Bede's Alcluith - of that I am 100% certain. Maryport in Cumbria was the likeliest place for Bede's Alcluith. Dumbarton's presence as Alcluith is entirely dependant on Strathclyde being a Brythonic "Welsh kingdom" - but this was a late medieval/Tudor/Stewart era claim with extremely dubious and probably "invented" evidence. The archaeological evidence from the 6th century BC until the 1st century AD shows clear evidence of Irish settlement in the Solway-Clyde region as far north as Perth. This was clearly in line with Bede, Nennius etc. claim that the sequence of settlement was first Britons, then Picts and the Scots AND then Romans. There is very good evidence that in fact the Scots settled in the Strathclyde region and this was a Scottish "kingdom" rather than a Brythonic Kingdom. The evidence for this claim is contained in the book "The Evolution of the Picts" (also known as The Evolution of the Pictish legend) which is available on Amazon. There is a great deal of evidence in this publication but a few brief points can be summarised as follows.

Dumbarton town is in completely the wrong location - It sits on the River Leven and not the Clyde. and most importantly it is on the North side of the Firth of Clyde - Bede clearly indicates that Alcluith was on the South side of the Bay and the Scots occupied the North. The hill fort on Dumbarton Rock was a post Roman construction built in 5th/6th century AD, with no evidence of any earlier settlement. The Firth of Clyde where Dumbarton Rock is located, was not called the Firth of Clyde until the 17th century at the very earliest - it only starts to appear with a name in the late 16th century when it appears as the Firth of Dunbriton or Dumbreton. The Firth of Clyde was only linked to the Clota estuary of Ptolomey in 1607 on William Hole's map, but like Bishop Leslie's Novantum Promontory, he clearly put this in the wrong location, writing the name directly alongside the Kintyre coastline. There is no link between Dumbarton and the "Cluith" whatsoever. Dumbarton's first appearance on any map was as early as 1360 in the Gough map when it was called Dombre Tayne. It appears on several other maps with a similar name, It does not appear as Dun Britain until 1578 on Bishop John Leslie's map, when he clearly moved the Novantum Promontory from Ptolomey's (2nd century AD) Geographia from Galloway up to the Kintyre peninsula - a peninsula that Ptolomey had actually called The Epidium Promontory. In other word Bishop Leslie deliberately created a northern Alcluith by doing 2 things - 1. moving the Novantum promontory north and changing the name of Dumbarton to fit. In 1583 Nicolas de Nicolaye, a Frenchman with his own independent sources - produced his sea charts and called the town Dumbreton - the same name as appeared on the 1360 Gough map, so it is clear that the name was altered by Bishop Leslie in 1578 and he introduced the Dun Briton "fort of Britons" claim by "adjusting" the geography and changing place-names to suit. In 1250AD Matthew Paris constructed a map of Britain and did not name the river clyde flowing fro the sea and past Glasgow - he called it the "River that became Clydesdale" and gave it a date of 1208. He named another river Clyde (or rather Clud) - fl clud - fluvius clud - river clyde, and located it in Cumbria at the end of Hadrian's wall. The Roman Fort at Maryport formed the furthermost region of the Harian's wall defences and was constructed as early as the 1st century AD - so it meets the criteria of being an ancient fort, and being on the south side of the "Bay" and near the river clud named by Matthew Paris. Maryport was also known as Alauna in the Roman period - a Roman word indicating a harbour and which derives from the river Ellen - but ellen itself derives from the word Aln (Alauna) so may not be the original name, and clud itself probably means a crossing point. so Maryport, formerly Ellenfoot, formerly Alauna, was a harbour near a river where there was a crossing point, and Bede's nominis illus statement was not the river "of that name" but the river "named ill" - a river named Ellen. and petram cluith should have been portum cluith - the Harbour cluith. There is very, very good evidence for Maryport being Bede's Alcluith. It's certainly got a far more substantial claim than Dumbarton. Maryport has evidence dating from the 1st century AD - 700 years before Bede even started writing - an analysis of Dumbarton proves it's "evidence" is highly dubious and only dates from the late 16th century - 700 years after Bede stopped writing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daviefd (talk • contribs) 10:13, 9 June 2018 (UTC)