This is an archive of past discussions about Duchy of Saint Sava. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
On 20:02, 27 June 2007 PANONIAN created an article of unknow title, but on 7 July 2009 Surtsicna complained: "This article is awful Was this territory a state at all? There was no Mostar while it existed. There was no such place as "Hercegovina Vojvodstvo". which could mean that article started with the title Hercegovina Vojvodstvo or Dukedom of or Duchy of Herzegovina or some such inaccurate construct.
On 1 August 2010 blocked abuser User:AVNOJist moved the page to Dukedom of Saint Savawithout discussion
On 18 March 2011, later blocked user Ajdebre/Zoupan (blocked for socking and nationalistic leanings) invented another construct and moved "Dukedom of Saint Sava" to "Duchy of Saint Sava" without discussion and against many objections espoused by User:Joy. who objected it here in TP, and User:Surtsicna, User:Praxis Icosahedron, User:Potočnik, User:Kebeta, all of whom objected in a number of reverts with elaborate edit-summaries.
Then, many edit-wars and back-and-forth rv's ensued all the way throughout 2011 and 2012. - always without any TP discussion, and sometimes even without edit-summary.
On 8 February 2021 Santasa99 moved page Duchy of Saint Sava to Dukedom of Hum then to Duchy of Hum, with an edit-summary: see TP discussion; I started a discussion "Long overdue rename...". However, I did not wait for reply, I moved the page the same day. But then again, it can't be said that I made a huge mistake as nobody responded to my discussion anyway, until, that is, Joy responded on 5 March 2021 with a new section asking some unrelated question, pointing to unrelated linking issue - unrelated to my move. I believe that the reason Joy did not complain is because he already in 2011 noticed problems with a title and nationalistic slant in article's scope and content.
On 3 March 2021, almost a month after my first move and creation of TP discussion, to which only Joy joined, I moved Duchy of Hum to Humska zemlja
On 17 March 2021, an unsigned IP commenced his nationalistic diatribe, for which they were soon blocked - I assumed that user was from Bosnian wikipedia where I crossed path with them on the same issue. Nevertheless, this IP was the first to complain about my move and respond to my discussion of it.
User Mikola appeared on the same date and agreed with my move.
On 18 March 2021 Sorabino appeared and replied to TP discussion, however, he moved the page back to Duchy of Saint Sava a day earlier on 17 March; he, of course, did it without discussing it and despite the fact that EdJohnston protected the page earlier same day !
This short analysis shows how unfair, to put it mildly, is Sorabino in his complaining ! A clique of blocked editors, who disrupted the project with their nationalistic leanings and biases, invented and imposed the problematic title and scope of this article, and all that without any discussion and despite the objections of many editors over many months and years. The same way of doing business adopted Sorabino and moved page without discussion (more than once). That era is finally behind us with the last merging and creation of a new article with an appropriate scope and properly sourced. ౪ Santa ౪99°12:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for reminding the community that it was you who tried to change the title and scope of this article back in 2021. Your disruptive edits were reverted, and in consequent discussions you failed to gain support for such radical changes. During those discussions it was revealed that you tried to impose similar changes in the same article on Bosnian Wikipedia, but your unilateral actions were reverted by administrators of that project, who protected that article against vandalism (here). It should be also noted that similar articles on the same subject, related to historical feudal polity, Duchy of Saint Sava (1448-1482), exist on 13 (thirteen) Wikipedia projects, with their stable scopes and identical titles. Your constant attempts to suppress that subject on some projects (BW, EW) are very revealing. Sorabino (talk) 15:26, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Unlike you, I started discussion on TP, and nobody responded for entire month, something you, and before that, both soon to be blocked, Ajdebre/Zoupan and AVNOJist never did. The three of you didn't just move the page back and forth without discussion, you did it despite the objections of several editors: at first User:Joy, User:Surtsicna, User:Praxis Icosahedron, User:Potočnik, User:Kebeta, and then me, User:DeCausa, User:Mhare, User:Mikola, Joy again, User:Tezwoo; how about that list of editors who told you this page with this title and scope need to go. And for these other wiki project - I simply don't care; not that I believe you, because I don't anymore, I literally don't care. ౪ Santa ౪99°16:14, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Regarding the creation and scope of articles that are relevant for this discussion, I have a related question for user Santasa99. Since EW has a long standing-article on the medieval region of Zachlumia (Zahumlje, also known as Hum or Humska zemlja), why did you recently (28 June 2024) duplicate the same subject by turning a redirect Humska zemlja into a separate article (here)? It would be interesting to hear your reasons for such an unusual action, since you have mentioned various issues related to names of that historical region on several occasions in these debates here. Are you claiming that those are two distinctive subjects? Sorabino (talk) 16:31, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
