Talk:Du sollt Gott, deinen Herren, lieben, BWV 77

alternate texts for closing chorale

As discussed on p.180
http://books.google.com/books?id=m3C67i5UZj8C&pg=PA180
of "Analyzing Bach Cantatas" by Eric Thomas Chafe (c: 2000) , Oxford University Press ,
http://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-Bach-Cantatas-Eric-Chafe/dp/019512099X
the text of the final chorale of bwv077 was not indicated by Bach , and may be "Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich" or "Herr Jesu ! du stellst selbsten dich" (+more) or , alternatively , "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir" (+more) depending on which of two chorale texts by David Denicke was chosen by the music publisher (see the reference listed at google books) .

I note that the current wikipedia article cites a different (and earlier) source for the chosen text , but I am unable to help in reconciling this difference .

The issue of the chorale text is not just "academic" , since at least one recording , that by Gustav Leonhardt (c: 1978) , and re-published by Teldec in 1999
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005Q0UTK0/
as part of their Bach 2000 compilation , used "Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich" . (The cited amazon product is not a CD , but contains the same music as the corresponding CD from the Bach 2000 release) . Other recordings have been made with the alternative text "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir" .

The Leonhardt version is online here ... just the final chorale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPudq8WknB4&t=890

A Helmuth Rilling (probably c: 1983) version is also online here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlUycfBPcx8&t=912
but it uses the text "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir"
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Cantatas-77-79-Rilling/dp/B00003OP4S/

As the text of the final chorale of bwv077 is not "unique" , and there may be two or more "accepted" choices (one of which has 2 variants for the first line , which text is usually "the title" of the chorale) , the wikipedia article might be improved if these details were explained , and the 2 variants of the opening line of the alternative (older ?) chorale were listed ...

I leave it to the wikipedia editors to decide if and how to use this suggestion , and to make any changes they deem necessary to the article .

mgt220 at yahoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 (talk) 01:09, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

That makes sense. Will you perhaps make changes yourself, or word them here? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:26, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I have done some further investigation , which may be helpful .

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV77.htm
lists the 7 recordings known (by that site) for this cantata ... 6 of these are part of [attempted] complete Bach Cantata sets , and are also listed on the article page as selected recordings ; the set by Emiko Ohmura is sung in Japanese , and the only reference I have does not document the chorus text .

For the remaining 6 recordings , the final chorale text is :
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005Q0UTK0/ Leonhardt - Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich ]
[http://www.amazon.com/Cantatas-v13-Suzuki/dp/tracks/B0000521W3/ Suzuki - Du stellst, mein Jesu, selber dich + zum Vorbild ]
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00003OP4S/ Rilling - Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir ] (trk 6)
[http://www.amazon.de/Bach-Edition-Vol-21/dp/tracks/B00004XPLF/ Leusink - Herr, durch den Glauben ( ... ? ) ] (disk 3)
[http://www.amazon.com/Cantatas-6-BWV-33-Bach/dp/B000VR054I Gardiner - Ach Herr, ich wollte ja dein Recht ]
[http://www.amazon.com/Cantatas-v08-Koopman/dp/tracks/B00000JXQ5/ Koopman - Herr Jesu, der du angezündet ]
(I think I have corrected a small spelling error here and in Koopman's liner notes ; I also found many internet links that put Suzuki's final choral text with Koopman's CD - probably in error !)

That is "2 votes" for "Herr, durch ..." , "approximately" 2 votes for "Du stellst..." , and 2 other text choices which were not mentioned by Eric Chafe in his book (above) .

Even if my "research" is correct (and there are good reasons to doubt the accuracy of track listings provided at sales sites , which I used , except with the Koopman version) , wikipedia does not use "research" , but "authoritative" published data . The book by Chafe is likely to be reliable as a resource , and I suggest shaping the wikipedia notes according to its observations , with the understanding that no conductor is bound to follow him .

Also , the current History and words section of the article does say something relevant . I suggest breaking out that remark into the start of a second paragraph in the section , and combining with added detail from the Chafe book ... For instance :

current text :
The text of the closing chorale is lost. Karl Friedrich Zelter suggested the eighth stanza of David Denicke's chorale Wenn einer alle Ding verstünd (1657).[3] Werner Neumann suggested the eighth stanza of Denicke's O Gottes Sohn, Herr Jesu Christ (1657).[4]

possible new text :
The text of the closing chorale used by Bach is lost. Karl Friedrich Zelter suggested the eighth stanza of David Denicke's chorale "Wenn einer alle Ding verstünd" (1657) [3] , which choice appears in the old Bach Edition and has as its first line "Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich" [34c] . Werner Neumann , a contributor to the new Bach Edition , suggested the eighth stanza of Denicke's "O Gottes Sohn, Herr Jesu Christ" (1657) [4] which has as its first line "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir" [34c] . Either of these first lines , or other selections made by musical directors , may appear as the title of the closing chorale .

return to current text :
Bach first performed the cantata on 22 August 1723.[1]

I am using the clumsy [34c] to reference page 180 of Chafe's book which I cited in my prior comments .

I also wonder if , in the Scoring and structure section , the listing should be
6. choral: original text lost ; see the above section for possibilities .
instead of the current selection of a specific title .

I will be content if you are able to use any part of these suggestions .
However , I am really reluctant to edit the article page .

mgt220 at yahoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 (talk) 01:50, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

PS: I should probably have said editor of , not contributor to , in the suggested new text :

Werner Neumann , editor of the new Bach Edition ...

according to the Neumann article . Sorry for the oversight ... mgt220 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 (talk) 03:07, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I tried, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:41, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks ! You have made a definite improvement to the article , now that it displays the title text of the two versions of the final chorale that are listed in the "old" and "new" Bach Editions . Listeners who have heard any of the 4 suggested recordings by Leonhardt , Suzuki , Rilling , or Leusink , will find a matching title text . But I am concerned that still leaves listeners of suggested recordings by Gardiner and Koopman (and possibly others , in future) with a "potential inconsistency" .

Isn't there something more we can say without running afoul of the wikipedia "no original research" policy ? For instance ,

1. Choral: Du sollt Gott, deinen Herren, lieben
2. Recitativo (bass): So muß es sein! (substituting ß for ss ?)
3. Aria (soprano): Mein Gott, ich liebe dich von Herzen
4. Recitativo (tenor): Gib mir dabei, mein Gott! ein Samariterherz
5. Aria (alto): Ach, es bleibt in meiner Liebe
6. Choral: (text options)
   1. Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich ;
   2. Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir ;
   3. (other choices have been made by conductors) .

Admittedly the last line may "confront" the policy , but it is at least "verifiable" , in that we have the PDF copy of the liner notes from Koopman's volume 8 , with bwv077 (NB p.75)
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Rec-BIG/Koopman-C08-1c%5BErato-3CD%5D.pdf
And this 3-part description would remain both comprehensive and true , regardless of whether recordings with unanticipated choices are issued in future , or not .

Also , I have examined references 3 and 4 . They are (especially ref.3) surprisingly "empty of expected content" . That makes page 180 of the Chafe book look like a "helpful" reference
http://books.google.com/books?id=m3C67i5UZj8C&pg=PA180
since (at least) it does present the full German text of the old and new Bach Edition suggestions for readers to examine ... What do you think of adding Chafe to the list of references (along with current reference 3) ? Details of the Chafe book (for a citation) are listed by [http://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-Bach-Cantatas-Eric-Chafe/dp/019512099X Amazon.com]

The audio of Koopman's final chorale can be "sampled" at [http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000QZZRAC this Amazon page] (disk 3 , track 19) . The sampled words are a bit difficult to follow , partly because they begin on the 5\th line of the text , and the liner notes don't conform to the "phrasing" , as sung . I have taken the liberty of rewriting those last 3 lines (as sung) ; in the revised text of the Koopman version :

Herr Jesu, der du angezündet, 
das Fünklein in mir Schwachen, 
Was sich vom Glauben in mir findt, 
du wallst es stärker machen. 
Was du gefangen an, (/) valiführ 
bis an das End (/) daß dort bei dir 
auf Glauben folg das Schauen.  

I have put (/) to indicate the line-breaks I ignored in the text of the PDF liner notes . (Given the probable "spelling error" I discovered in the first line already , and my inability to find another (more authoritative) copy of this text online , I can't be fully confident in its accuracy) .

Just one more observation : isn't the last line in the History and words section redundant ? (Sorry , I seem to have overlooked that when suggesting we keep it earlier) .

I look forward to your response . mgt220 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 (talk) 00:44, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Du sollt Gott, deinen Herren, lieben, BWV 77/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jaguar (talk · contribs) 22:11, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

I feel horrible for the backlog here. I'll finish this review soon JAGUAR  22:11, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Initial comments

• "He composed it in Leipzig" - would this sound better as He composed the chorale cantata in Leipzig as per usual Bach articles or am I wrong?
• "(J.J. concerto for the 13th a. Trinity, J.J. being short for Jesu juva (Jesus help)" - I didn't understand this very well. Perhaps you could remove "being short for Jesu juva (Jesus help)" and add it in a note next to "J.J."?
• "A short secco recitative for bass, "So muß es sein! " (So it must be! ), summarizes the ideas" - does this article use British or American spelling? It's just that I've always seen Bach articles use British spelling!
• "The keys and time signatures are taken from the Bach scholar Alfred Dürr, using the symbol for common time (4/4)" - what does "(4/4)" mean here?

References

• No dead links

Close - promoted

Out of all my 334 reviews so far, this is my shortest one. I could honestly find nothing that goes against the GA criteria and am obliged to pass it outright! Well done. Addressing the comments are optional, but I realise that I could be mistaken in a couple of them (such as my suggestion for the lead and British spelling) JAGUAR  22:33, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Text of 6th movement

There are two possible text variants for the sixth movement mentioned in reliable sources (e.g. Bach Digital quotes them both entirely): "selecting" one for the table of movements is not neutral. Either give both, or call the movement something like "(setting of "Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein" tune)". --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:54, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

It was explained in the section "Closing chorale" that there are two options. The table, as its introduction says, follows the NBA, including its choice. I will improve the other section, but see no reason to change table and its movement. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:41, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Re. "Closing chorale" section:

• Opening sentence is currently "The text of the closing chorale is lost" – referenced to the German edition of Dürr. I have no access to that German version, I can only see that Jones translates Dürr as "The concluding chorale is transmitted without text" (Dürr/Jones 2006 p. 512) – which is not the same as being "lost".
  • FYI, the last page of the autograph score is here or here – doesn't seem like something that is "transmitted" (entirely) "without text", so even Jones' translation may be subject to misinterpretation. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:47, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
• Next sentence starts with "Karl Friedrich Zelter suggested the eighth stanza of David Denicke's hymn "Wenn einer alle Ding verstünd" (1657) with the first line "Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich",..." – obviously contradicted by more modern research: Bach Digital writes, "movement 6: no text or incipit in original score. Non-autograph text supplement probably by J.C.F. Bach (not by C. F. Zelter). Presumably the son copied the text of the original parts. Lit.: P. Wollny, in: BJ 2001, p. 62." (emphasis added), and "stanza 8 from ‘Wenn einer alle Ding verstünd’ by David Denicke (1657) (inscribed by J.C.F. Bach)" (J.C.F. Bach is Johann Christoph Friedrich Bach, one of Bach's younger sons, see [1]). Please check the BJ 2001 source by Wollny. I suppose Wollny and Neumann are equally valid Bach scholars: Wikipedia's neutrality requires to treat them on the same footing, so Wikipedia can't make a choice which of the two is closest to the truth, or, alternatively (depending on how things are worded in Wollny's article), one might possibly give precedence to the more modern source (imho Jones' translation of Dürr may be more recent than Wollny's article, but since it is a translation of an older source it probably doesn't qualify as "more modern" research. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:27, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

When was "currently". I tried to use Bach Digital findings [2], no more Zelter, for example. What is left? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:39, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

"The extant autograph score" contains a chorale text (see links above), so "It is missing in the extant autograph score" is not exactly correct (at least prone to misunderstanding): the point is that J. S. Bach didn't write it, but it makes a huge difference whether it was written by a "next generation" Bach decendant or by a "next century" Bach aficionado.

Zelter should not be removed, there's no way to explain why Neumann proposed an alternative text otherwise. The quotes above of the Bach Digital page are a summary-of-summaries, and even there Zelter is mentioned. Please summarize sources, which is not leaving out what requires nuance for an adequate summary. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:00, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

"The text of the closing chorale is lost" still looks like a bad translation of Dürr, so better give the Jones translation (with wikipedia:in-text attribution to both Dürr and Jones) than keeping this dodgy sentence. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:04, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Please present the incipits of both alternative text versions on equal footing, or, if not, do as on the lyrics page of the Bach Digital website: the BGA version first (and the NBA version between brackets after it). Again, it is not up to Wikipedians to decide which of both excellent Bach scholars (Neumann or Wollny) takes precedence in this difference of analysis: and if anything, the younger analysis should be given slightly more advantage. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:20, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

We just had another edit conflict, now here. I wrote:

"I am sure you can add the nuances better than I could. We keep having edit conflicts, for example the "lost" sentence was already removed before. I'll look again tomorrow."

and that applies for the incipits as well. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:25, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Draft

---

The cantata's last movement is a four-part chorale on the tune of "Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein". Bach did not write any lyrics for this movement in his autograph score. A later hand added the text of the eighth stanza of David Denicke's hymn "Wenn einer alle Ding verstünd" (1657). The BGA published the cantata with that version of the text. Werner Neumann, the editor of the cantata for the NBA, assumed that Karl Friedrich Zelter had added the lyrics for the last movement to Bach's autograph without knowing which lyrics may have been intended by the composer. Further, he found that the lyrics did not suit very well, so he published the cantata with a stanza from Denicke's "O Gottes Sohn, Herr Jesu Christ" hymn (1657). Peter Wollny wrote in an article published in the Bach-Jahrbuch 2001 that the handwriting of the last movement's lyrics in Bach's autograph was not Zelter's but probably that of Johann Christoph Friedrich, one of Bach's younger sons, who may have had access to the cantata's performing parts containing the lyrics as intended by the composer.

---

--Francis Schonken (talk) 19:51, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, I like that, just the abbreviation BGA needs an introduction. Go ahead, add it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:33, 21 June 2017 (UTC)