Talk:Drive (2011 film)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Drive (2011 film)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Aranea Mortem (talk • contribs • count) 15:38, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• Firstly, this is going to need a plot. I'd probably suggest just watching the film and annotating it, but you can also get the gist of it from online sources, but don't copy/paste!

If schoolwork stops me from seeing it tonight, then I'll definitely see it Saturday night. I'm not really good at writing plot sections (I always make them verbose) so if I'm lucky another viewer will swoop in and do it for me

• "a contract has been put on him after a heist gone wrong" Unclear.

done

• You cite Chris Smith, Joe Pingue, Tina Huang and Jeff Wolfe as being in the cast, who do they play? Also Chris Smith needs disambiguation. Could you also give links to the other actors who don't have articles, redlinks are fine.

done for linking but I did remove some as they were extras (i.e. "waitress", caterer man in a tan suit). I could not even find Smith and Christian in the whole cast list....

• Minor: After "Platt Productions", there is a space before the ref. Also after "he says." (ref 8)

done

• I could have sworn the driver was a sociopath, he was clearly written to be socially awkward and mainly devoid of emotion. They seemed to put a lot of effort into displaying this in every scene. However nothing about this side of his character is mentioned. Nor is his (missing) past which is presumably bloody. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.216.114.180 (talk) 06:01, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• "small but vital" Point of view?

put that in quotes per source from Cannes PDF file

• "he loved that Bernie is not cliched" Changes tense part-way through the sentence.

done

• There's a bit of overlinking going on: Jewish, thinking outside the box and mobster, gang member, edit, abandoned building, showroom, Scandinavian, European, movie critics.

done

• "They built from scratch, Gosling's character's apartment building" Awkward sentence.

fixed

• The first sentence of "Style" doesn't make sense to me.

done

• Red Dog is disambiguated incorrectly and is redlinked, the film article is found here.

done

• To Live and Die in L.A. and Typecasting need disambiguation.

done Crystal Clear x3 16:46, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Hey there Crystal, everything checks out GA-wise, except the breadth due to a lacking plot section and a few other minor tweaks that are needed, once done, I'll pass it. Good luck, Aranea Mortem ^{(talk to me)} 15:38, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Untitled

Apparently there is a lawsuit being filed by a moviegoer who felt betrayed by the trailer. Perhaps further investigation could lead to an article update.

Original source (in Danish) http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Kultur/2011/10/09/151734.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.41.230.103 (talk) 19:08, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Hey. I don't know anything about editing wikipedia. I hope its okay to write here. The music of this film draws HEAVILY from Brian Eno's ambient 70's work, but this is not mentioned in the music section. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo:_Atmospheres_and_Soundtracks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.0.34.52 (talk) 11:55, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): VienAmor.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 20:18, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Lawsuit

Currently this article contains this text: "A Michigan woman named Deming has sued both FilmDistrict and Emagine Theaters located in Novi, Michigan in October 2011 due to suffering "damages", feeling that the previews were misleading. Filing under the Michigan Consumer Protection Act, she stated its distributer marketed Drive as similar to the Fast and the Furious film series, and, in a bait and switch act, gave her a motion picture with little racing. Further more, Deming accused Drive of containing antisemitic themes. Deming has asked for the cost of her ticket to be refunded, and later plans to file a class action lawsuit to prevent future false film advertising."

Anyone else think this doesn't really belong here? It's pretty trivial, and the lawsuit will obviously be thrown out as spurious at the first opportunity. Let's not give this woman attention she doesn't deserve.

Robofish (talk) 16:46, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I have to disagree. While I think the woman should be smacked with a abti-SLAPP suit personally and ordinarily I would not want to give the woman attention, her stunt has attracted considerable national publicity, in the united states. It was in fact that publicity what made me aware the film existed to begin with. Which I am glad for because it looks like an interesting even if a tad artsy film. While these things may just blow over, given press response, I do not see that happening here. — Falerin^{<talk>,<contrib>} 17:26, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

If it is true that it has 'attracted considerable national publicity' that would give sufficient warrant for retaining it. I leave it to Americans to determine whether that is the case in America; the story is unheard of in the UK and I've managed not to hear about it from any of the US media I consume. Be that as it may, given how spurious the charges are (there are a large number of action scenes; while no one would claim that it was 'an action film' and whatever the merits of litigating against false film advertising the case is dead on arrival) I suspect this story is over before it begins. American editors who feel themselves able to make a judgement as to whether there's been a lot of media attention, if they feel there has not been, should strong consider removing the passage. ~~

This was covered extensively internationally. For example: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/oct/11/ryan-gosling-doesnt-drive-more. Every country was baffled and mocking this specific example of a frivolous lawsuit. It is a shame that rather than doing what Wikipedia was created for, that is to present the facts, not the spin, Wikipedia relies on third hand information about the lawsuit.

Where do you come off saying that this is a spurious lawsuit? The allegations and issues in the case are very serious, and true. The lawsuit involves claims that there is extensive deliberate embedded subliminal content intended to spin two brands: Brand Jew (evil, dark, greedy, etc..), Brand victim of Jew (worthy of sympathy, trusting, pure, innocent, Palestinian, Gentile, Aryan, etc..)and brand Jew Killer (holy, light, generous, selfless, etc..).

Judge for yourself how trivial this is from the Director himself (go to the 26 minute mark): http://moviecitynews.com/2011/12/dp30-drive-director-nicolas-winding-refn/

Or look at the subliminal content yourself: http://kosherslaughter.com/sublimation/

Only stupid people don't mind being manipulated. I am the attorney for the Plaintiff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MartinLeaf (talk • contribs) 18:30, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

• I can't believe this lasted so long in a GA. First off, it is trivial nonsense, sourced by a primary record and a site that will never pass RS. Second, it is very POV driven and third, there is a COI issue here. I've removed the section. Will be happy to discuss it. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:23, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

List of accolades received by Drive?

I believe the awards section is large enough to warrant it's own separate article now. Bruce Campbell (talk) 18:02, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. You suggesting you wanna create it? I could help, I've done a few accolades articles before... (Black Swan looks great btw, you've made a fan.) Aranea Mortem ^{(talk to me)} 18:29, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I created the separate page, but it's just in it's initial stage right now. Once the awards season is over it'll be better, and could be a Featured List. Bruce Campbell (talk) 21:03, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Soundtrack

Source 40 has been incorporated into the article incorrectly. Johnny Jewel's two songs are "Under Your Spell" and "Tick of the Clock", not "A Real Hero". In the interview, he calls "A Real Hero" almost too literal, but the quote given - "in the exact same way that I was feeling it when I wrote it. He definitely got the nuance of the song, and understood what it was supposed to mean, and he wanted to give that emotion to the viewer, that same feeling." - is about "Under Your Spell".

And, really, the next paragraph is not needed at all since, as stated in the interview and in this article, Cliff Martinez ended up doing the score for the movie and Jewel's score wasn't used but for those two songs.

I can't be bothered to "be bold" tonight, but someone who cares more than I do ought fix it. --118.208.138.145 (talk) 16:23, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Nino is Jewish?

The summary says that Nino was supposed to be Jewish. I'm not questioning this, but why do we know that? I got that Brook's character was supposed to be Jewish. But despite all the rants about "the family", Nino seemed to be Italian (the name, the pizza place). Can we put in a reference for future people like me who don't figure it out? Jsolinsky (talk) 16:43, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

There's numerous references to this. Bernie saying "a jewish man running a pizza shop?", and during Nino's rant about the family, he complains about them calling him a kike (a derogative term for a jew). --uKER (talk) 17:35, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

The role of either of the mobsters religion didn't play a large enough role to be mentioned in the article anyways. If it was inherently implied they were involved in a jewish mafia or mob that was one thing but it would be just speculation. Duhon (talk) 08:51, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

No wonder Refn asked to meet with the Plaintiff Deming on a number of occasions: She was apparently the only one paying attention to the movie. Drive is essentially a commercial with two brands: Brand Jew and Brand Jew Killer. Brand Jew is dark and bad, brand Jew killer is the light, and good. Just take a look at how the light always shines on Driver. Look at how many crosses and crucifixes he is framed within. It is all over the place. http://www.kosherslaughter.com/sublimation/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by MartinLeaf (talk • contribs) 23:55, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Action/thiller/whatever/excess refs

Well, so I removed the absurd 12 refs about it being an American action drama film, but only noticed afterwards that a similar earlier edit had been reverted. (Though that was to change it from "thriller" to "drama", not just add the refs.) Still, we don't need ref spam for no good reason. I left the description as it was before, just removed all the excess refs. If it does need some refs to support whatever type of movie it actually should be categorized as (I'd have left a couple in if I'd noticed the earlier edit), then just a few should do...not 12. :) – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 10:35, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Brian Eno

There's no mention in this article of the atmospheric Brian Eno tracks that seem to be peppered around the film, perhaps it could be noted in the soundtrack section somewhere? Aranea Mortem ^{(talk to me)} 22:37, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

There are zero, ZERO Brian Eno tracks used in this film. I keep hearing this misinformation repeated and now see it in the Wikipedia article. Please listen to Apollo: Atmospheres and Soundtracks again and then watch the movie again but this time try to LISTEN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.145.11 (talk) 23:29, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Genre

187.35.39.81, you will report me for putting in what has been previously in and out for months? You, someone who isn't registered will report me?

Drive's genre on Wikipedia has been between Drama, Action and Romance with Action being the one used the most and the other two coming in and out at different times. In the past day the genre has changed completely on Wikipedia from when it was previously a mix between Action, Drama and Romance. You claimed that I was a genre warrior just because I put back in a genre that had been there on and off with Drama and Action for ages? I would post this on your TalkPage but non-registered people don't have talk pages. How can you say you'll report me when you started this by changing the genre completely. Charlr6 (talk) 21:55, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

For all the discussion about genre, why is neo-noir not included? The movie seems to fit into that genre better than any others. Flattop100 (talk) 20:52, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Europop, neo-noir, electro, low synth are various types of genres. The fact that there are so many genres out there that its hard to even associate music towards any specific genre nowadays. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VienAmor (talk • contribs) 18:31, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Cult Film?

"... has since gained a large cult following."

I dont think Drive is a cult film. There isnt any real definition for a cult film but this movie came out a year ago, not much time to generate any large cultish following. If someone can find a citation that there is this large cult following of Drive out there then they have my respect. This cult following sure isnt on Wikipedia at least... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.76.255.235 (talk) 05:17, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm going to delete all cult references in the article. This movie aint no Pulp Fiction — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.118.225.206 (talk) 21:15, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Not a cult film. This isn't The Room — Preceding unsigned comment added by VienAmor (talk • contribs) 18:32, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Heavy Spoilers

The plot describes the full film, step-by-step, including the ending. Shouldn't it be shortened to a simple spoiler-free context for someone who will watch it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 15.195.201.86 (talk) 18:24, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi. You'll find that all film article on Wikipedia have (or should have) full plots of the film. We have a guideline, WP:SPOILER, that basically says that we should not be censoring the content of the article in order to prevent spoiling plot points for readers. Ideally, each film will have a one or two sentence plot summary in the lede, or at least a general description of the topic of the film, and then the full film plot will be explained in the Plot section. If you don't want to be spoiled, don't read the Plot section. There are also several links at the bottom that linked to abbreviated plot summaries. BOVINEBOY2008 18:45, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Xan Brooks

This guy is a moron. Can we remove all quotes from him on the entire site? (Modest proposal :)) 83.217.122.76 (talk) 15:27, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Ending clarifications

This is my first time in the talk page or editing any articles (aside from fixing grammar), so please excuse me if my formatting seems a bit haphazard. Having re-watched the ending of the movie a few times I have a few issues with the current edition of the "Plot" section:

The Driver retaliates by fatally stabbing Bernie in the neck.

I may be nitpicking here, but it doesn't seem clear where the Driver stabbed Bernie due to the angle of the shot. However, given that Bernie screams when the Driver stabs him, it seems unlikely that he was stabbed in the neck, perhaps the chest. Although that could be a simple mistake. (Then again, it isn't important to the plot, perhaps it would be better to omit that detail entirely?)

he then departs in his car, leaving the money with Bernie's corpse..

The money isn't shown in the final scenes. The Driver states that the money is in the trunk, but after he retrieves it (however, again, there is no shot that confirms that the money is there) and Bernie stabs him, the money is not shown. I believed that the audience was to assume that the money stayed with the Driver. I searched for the script, which states in an omitted scene that the driver leaves the money for Irene. However, this is not in the final cut. Has anyone noticed anything I may have missed, or is this intentionally ambiguous?

BBC airing the film with alternative soudtrack

The music section could be expanded with information on the alternative score curated by Zane Lowe and the controversy surrounding it. Here are some sources:

• http://spin.com/articles/chvrches-drive-bbc-soundtrack-get-away-zane-lowe-stream/
• http://www.factmag.com/2014/10/31/watch-drive-rescore-zane-lowe-bbc-three/
• http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/music/news/a604759/zane-lowe-curates-new-drive-soundtrack-with-chvrches-bastille-more.html
• http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/movies/feature/a606843/radio-1s-zane-lowe-re-scores-drive-a-brave-gamble-but-did-it-pay-off.html
• http://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/radio-1s-rescore-of-the-movie-drive-a-valiant-idea-that-ultimately-falls-flat
• http://www.nme.com/news/the-1975/80771
• http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/music/news/a606943/listen-to-the-1975s-medicine-from-radio-1s-drive-re-score.html

Mayast (talk) 18:30, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Could it have its own sub-section under the Release section? It could have its own page if people had enough to write about it. Tedjam (talk) 20:48, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to add a few more links that really highlight neo-lofi music that pretty much defines Nicholas' style and genre

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europop
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synth-pop
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthwave
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85bkCmaOh4o

Unsourced editorializing in reception

In this edit, an IP editor restored unsourced commentary about how the film received "critical acclaim". Per WP:BURDEN, I think this needs a source to stay in the article. We already have two aggregators, and I don't see the point in including this unsourced commentary. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:32, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/books/la-ca-book-james-sallis-profile-20110807,0,70060.story
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/22/entertainment/la-et-hawthorne-drive-20110922
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120105215412/http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2011/12/the_best_films_of_2011.html to http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2011/12/the_best_films_of_2011.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130927052820/http://www.ultratop.be/nl/annual.asp?year=2012&cat=a to http://www.ultratop.be/nl/annual.asp?year=2012&cat=a
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130921062025/http://www.ultratop.be/fr/annual.asp?year=2012&cat=a to http://www.ultratop.be/fr/annual.asp?year=2012&cat=a
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131014064915/http://www.snepmusique.com/fr/pag-259376-Classements-Annuels.html?year=2012 to http://www.snepmusique.com/fr/pag-259376-Classements-Annuels.html?year=2012&type=2
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See also: Whitewashing in film

I'm not seeing a strong enough tie (no tie at all, near as I can tell) in in the article text to whitewashing to justify this See Also.... Can someone clarify? ++Lar: t/c 14:57, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

The article does make a note of this in the casting section: "In the original script, the character was a Hispanic woman name Irina. The character was changed to Irene after Mulligan was cast." The references should also support it: "In the novel, Irene is a young Latina woman [...] However, director Nicolas Winding 'couldn't find an actress that clicked with [him] personally' and the character was re-written as a white woman instead." The whitewashing in film article defines it as "a casting practice [...] in which white actors are cast in historically non-white character roles." Irene is the love interest of the protagonist of the film, so her role isn't exactly minor, but the whitewashing aspect is only tangential which is likely why it was put in the see also section rather than an inline link with further discussion on it. Opencooper (talk) 15:22, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Copyvio

Earwig's Copyvio detects 95.7 confidence, so there's likely a serious violation. However, this could just be a weird coincidence. Could a IMDb user cut and pasted content from the article? No one in their right minds would ever copy content from IMDb since it's user-generated (like WP). Bluesphere 03:24, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

It returned 46.2% for me. People sometimes copy-paste content between Wikipedia and the IMDb, but this is a GA. It's likely some basic checking happened during the GA process. After that, who knows – but I've had the article on my watchlist for year, and I tend to sensitive to that sort of thing. I wrote a GA several years ago on a topic that's very popular in the fan community. Out of curiosity, I ran the copyright detector on my GA, and it returned some absurdly high percentage. It turned out that several bloggers had bulk copy-pasted large portions of the Wikipedia article into their blog. I also got dinged for quoting a few words several times from long journal articles, such as, "Academic X says it is 'without a doubt true', but Academic Y calls this a 'naive reading'." Repeat that five or six times throughout your article, and you're at 50% confidence already. Anyway, what content do you think is copied? I can take a look. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 13:05, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Well, when I first ran the tool, it detected similar contents to the IMDb page of the movie via its trivia section. Examining carefully, I found out that there are indeed copied content, using the exact words (or slightly paraphrased) written from the article, that have been copy-pasted from WP.

I must enumerate some of it; from IMDB:

• The opening chase scene was primarily filmed by Nicolas Winding Refn within the car's interior. In an interview, Winding Refn revealed the idea for this scene was to emulate the feeling of a "diver in an ocean of sharks", never leaving the vehicle during a car chase so that the audience can see what's happening from the character's point of view. Tight on money and time, he shot the scene in two days. With two different set-ups prepared in the car, the director found it difficult to have mobility with the camera, so he would then switch the camera to two additional set-ups nearby. As downtown Los Angeles had changed for the better, Refn avoided certain areas to preserve the gloomy atmosphere. Additionally, the scene was shot at low-angles with minimal light.

• The film premiered on May 20, in competition at the 2011 Cannes Film Festival. At its first showing to the media, it received abundant praise and received "some of the best responses of the festival", but one positive review said it "can't win, won't win" Cannes's top prize.It was greeted with hoots and howls of joy from the media, with viewers cheering on some of the scenes featuring extreme violence. It also received a 15-minute standing ovation from the crowd.

• Nicolas Winding Refn moved into a Los Angeles home during filming and insisted that the cast members and screenwriter move in with him. They would work on the script and film all day, then watch films, edit or drive at night. Refn requested that the editing suite be placed in his home as well. With a shooting script of 81 pages, Winding Refn and Ryan Gosling continued to trim down dialog during filming.

• Locations were picked by Nicolas Winding Refn while Ryan Gosling drove him around the city at night. Under the director's request, Los Angeles was picked as the shooting site due to budget concerns.

• Consistent with Nicolas Winding Refn's usual visual style, wide-angle lenses were heavily used by cinematographer Newton Thomas Sigel. Handheld camerawork was avoided. Preferring to keep the film more "grounded" and authentic, he also avoided use of computer-generated imagery (CGI). Inability to afford CGI due to budgeting restrictions also played a factor in this decision.

• Car scenes were filmed with a "biscuit rig", a camera car rig developed for Seabiscuit (2003), which allowed stunt driver Robert Nagle to steer the car, freeing Ryan Gosling to concentrate on acting.

• When Nicolas Winding Refn suggested Albert Brooks for the role of Bernie, Ryan Gosling agreed but thought the actor would not be up for playing a character who is violent and sullen, or for appearing in a film that he did not work on himself.

• The movie soundtrack was listed on Spin Magazine's list of "40 Movie Soundtracks That Changed Alternative Music".

• According to Nicolas Winding Refn, the film is dedicated to filmmaker Alejandro Jodorowsky and includes some of Jodorowsky's existentialism.

• Hossein Amini felt that the source novel was a rare book to receive from a studio because it was short, gloomy and like a poem. Because the novel does not present a linear story but has many flashbacks and jumps around in time, Amini found the adaptation challenging. He felt the non-linear structure made it "a very tricky structure" for a feature film.

The list goes on... see for yourself. Bluesphere 15:17, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

It looks like someone copied content from Wikipedia to the IMDb. If you look at the Wikipedia article history, this edit added the "some of the best responses of the festival" line. It cites a Los Angeles Times article written less than 24 hours prior. Also, you can see that this edit added the "can't win, won't win" line the same day the article was posted. It seems like the Wikipedia article was almost certainly written as the news articles were written, then it was later copied into the IMDb. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:24, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

I see. Btw, I attempted to fix some linkrots, which I was able to do so. But I have a problem with the non-English sources and I don't know who to consult. Refs #121 and 123 are dead even though they have been archived. Bluesphere 13:26, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm completely unfamiliar with these national charts, but I sometimes fix dead links for charts. That's given a basic kind of competence at this. I fixed the German chart, but I'm not sure how to fix the Italian one. The best I can find for that is this site, but it doesn't seem to list the FIMI ranking. You could try asking WikiProject Albums, but they'll probably just steer you toward WP:GOODCHARTS. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 15:13, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

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FA

I'm planning to push this article for the FA status. Any comments are welcome while I wait for this one to be peer reviewed. Best. Bluesphere 06:18, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

The top-ten list

It was suggested by a GOCE volunteer after his copy edit that the Top-ten list be reduced to a paragraph as it's overkill. He explains, "It's hardly important who was number two, let alone number seven!" Anybody agree? Slightlymad (talk) 08:18, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Move essay on style

Put style and influence comments after Reception - these are all part of post-release discussion and do not belong before the film is screened.Parkwells (talk) 16:46, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Plot

The plot seems ridiculously long. I don't know the film, so I can't edit it, but it needs to be trimmed. --2600:1700:C020:3520:10AC:4CCB:6A0D:326F (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 03:32, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Dear 69.206.179.50

Could you please inform me as to how my grammar is awkward? I really don't want an edit war, that's why I'm not reverting you again but you give no feedback or indication as to why you feel the need to revert it. Looking at your contribs, you've done this several times. It really isn't hard to give the slightest intention of your edits. NotAnInsurgent (talk) 01:40, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

The Driver

Interesting that the whole article does not mention the "The Driver" once. A 1978 film which shares not only almost the same name but as indeed very much in common with Drive. Soulman (talk) 13:30, 6 October 2023 (UTC)