Talk:Doora, County Clare

Which should come first in the article - Civil Parish section or Village section?

As written, the Civil Parish section comes before the Village section. It would seem to me, after reading Civil parishes in Ireland and (yikes!) Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ireland#Civil_parishes_vs_villages, that the Village is the more recent and relevant of the two, and thus should be discussed first in the article. This would also align with the lead.

On a related note, I found this article to be interesting, but failed to illuminate why the Civil Parish vs. Village issue is even raised. Reading Civil parishes in Ireland made it even less clear. I believe the discussion of the differences (as well as others, such as RC parishes) in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ireland#Civil_parishes_vs_villages was more enlightening (albeit aggravating due to the infighting) than in Civil parishes in Ireland. Perhaps some of you experts in this area could improve that article?

Thanks, JoeSperrazza (talk) 22:27, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Joe. You may well be right about the need for a re-write. Re the order - I've no particular preferences. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:29, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever has the most prominence of the two entities should have preference as far as I am aware. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:23, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The question is academic since there is no village called Doora. There are a few newish-looking houses around the church in Noughval townland, and a few other strings of houses, presumably for people who work in Ennis, but nothing that could be called a village in the sense of having a pub or a shop. This is just a civil parish in the south of the much larger Catholic parish of Doora Barefield. I have put name and location first, then antiquities, catholic parish and sports (sequence is arbitrary) and then townlands. There are too many small sections, but I can't see a good way to combine them. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:09, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Recent revert

I have undone this revision by The Banner (talk · contribs):

As noted above, there is a civil parish named Doora in County Clare, but no village by that name.
The fact that the castle has been restored as a rental property is relevant. It is one of the main features of the parish
The {{County Clare}} and {{Roman Catholic Diocese of Killaloe}} templates are irrelevant since they do not contain entries for Doora.

Given the history, any changes like the one reverted should be discussed on this talk page to gain consensus before they are made. Aymatth2 (talk) 18:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As stated before, you can find the village Doora by following the link in the article to Google Maps. When you want to call it a hamlet instead of a village, that is fine to me. But there is a human settlement there. The Banner talk 18:29, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The sources all describe Doora as a parish, not as a village or hamlet. The 1844 Gazetteer says the principal hamlets are Dowry and Ballaghboy. Dowry seems to have disappeared. Google Maps is not exactly a reliable source, but does show the civil parishes, including Doora, and the townlands. There is no Doora townland. Bing labels some of the clusters of houses as Kilbreckan (Doura), Ballaghboy (Doora), Noughaval (Doora) and so on, but does not label the cluster around the church on Noughaval Drive. There is a Doora village in Mysore district, Karnataka and another in Agra district, Uttar Pradesh, but those are completely different places. Aymatth2 (talk) 19:18, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ow, sorry. I could know that you know it better. But strange enough I have never noticed that the road between Ennis en Quin made a detour through India when I was driving through Doora. But it is strange that the parish Doora-Barefield list one of its churches as being in Doora. See: [1]. Almost exactly at the given coordinates and the hamlet/village I was referring too. The Banner talk 19:35, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The church is indeed in Doora parish, and the article uses the church's coordinates as the coordinates for the civil parish. Aymatth2 (talk) 20:08, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No, the church of Doora is in the human settlement Doora, just as the church of Roslevan is in a neighbourhood of Ennis and the church of Barefield is in the village/hamlet of Barefield. That is what the parish website states. T.J. Westropp refers in his "Folklore of Clare" (ISBN 1 900545 12 8) at page 50 to "Brecan (c. 480) has wells at Naughaval near Clare Castle (Kilbrecan), Doora, and Clooney (Bunratty), (...)". And he was clearly referring to place names not parish names as the first two are in the same parish. (In that time the parish Doora, now Doora-Barefield) The Banner talk 20:34, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

According to Logainm.ie, which is run by the Irish Depertment of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Doora is only a civil parish and electoral district in County Clare. Sometimes the site does get things wrong, i.e. villages, hamlets, and population centers wrongly categorised as one or the other, but we would need some better sources that it is a village for if the state doesn't acknowledge it then is it really? Mabuska ^(talk) 22:21, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have already pointed at two websites and one book. Plus that I can drive you up (not today, sorry) to show you the village/hamlet. The Banner talk 23:29, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I see no sources for a village named Doora in County Clare. The castle, playing fields, townlands etc. in the parish, named in this article, are obviously not contained in any village. I get the impression from Google maps/street view that the row of houses along Noughaval Drive beside St. Breckan's Church is a new development. If The Banner (talk · contribs) is anxious to start an article about Doora (village) the two places in India seem much larger and more significant. See 12°08′46″N 76°35′44″E / 12.146095°N 76.595639°E and 27°03′04″N 77°44′15″E / 27.051084°N 77.737487°E. These are sizable places, listed in the census. Aymatth2 (talk) 23:53, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I gave three sources already. How many more do you want to believe the facts? The Banner talk 00:29, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Two or more sources that named Doora Village in County Clare could make the basis for a new article, which should avoid confusing the village (if it exists) with the parish, and should also avoid confusing the church of St Brecan, Doora, once the center of the parish, with the modern church of the same name. Again, the Indian Dooras seem much more promising. It is said that Mahavira, who founded Jainism, died in Doora in Uttar Pradesh in the 6th century. Aymatth2 (talk) 01:05, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of your flutter you better read the links I have already given. But no worry, I will look further in the hope to correct the mistake. The Banner talk 01:23, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't you topic banned from this?♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:31, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, not any more. Sorry for that. The Banner talk 11:56, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If the Banner's OR preference continues, that ban might have to be extended. For the record, the article is about the civil parish, of slight note, not the village, of zero note, even if it can be proven to exist. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:13, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For your info: the article was about the village until changed to the civil parish. And no, it is not WP:OR as I have given prior published (but ignored) sources. The Banner talk 14:36, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1. Banner's "There is also" doesn't make explicit that we're talking about the same place, which I suppose we are. It would need a tweak. 2. Why is it such a big deal? 3. Given that the sourcing for geographical entities can be difficult and sometimes unreliable, and given that Banner says he can drive us all through this hamlet/town/village/ghost town, why can't we accept that? Sure, it's on the OR side of things, but what I get from the above discussion is more doubt than anything else, besides an argument that seems to be based on the absence of evidence--though this, albeit in 1845, clearly calls the joint a "hamlet". 4. Banner, why take out that mention of the castle? Doesn't seem like a big deal to me. 5. Why are you lot always fighting? We're not talking about gun laws or abortion here, or the Iron Bowl. Surely we can come to a solution. Drmies (talk) 15:16, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- - I took out the castle because it seemed advertising to me. The Banner talk 20:11, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is an arcane argument about a trivial subject, but it is annoying to see it brought up again when the civil parish/village issue had been discussed exhaustively and consensus reached. A waste of time. To recap, the three sources identified by The Banner (talk · contribs) are:

Google Maps, which shows DOORA in upper case, used for parishes and townlands, rather than mixed case used for towns and villages
Road Resurfacing notice 2014, which says vehicles were to be diverted through Doora
Westropp 1913, which is a bit confused: "Brecan (c. 480) has wells at Noughaval near Clare Castle (Kilbrecan), Doora, and Clooney (Bunratty);" Clarecastle is a village in the parish of Clareabbey. Noughaval and Kilbrecan are townlands in Doora parish, and Clooney is a parish in Bunratty Upper barony. Possibly the parentheses are misplaced and this should read: "Brecan (c. 480) has wells at Noughaval near Clare Castle, Kilbrecan (Doora), and Clooney (Bunratty);"

These three sources seem to refer to the parish. The 1845 Gazeteer says "The principal hamlets are Dowry and Ballaghboy." It does not mention a hamlet or village called Doora. There is no entry in Logainm.ie. None of this proves there is no such village. The group of houses around St. Breckan's Church is of recent construction. Perhaps the developer calls them something like "Doora villas". If The Banner (talk · contribs) can find information about a village or hamlet called Doora, he can add a section to this article holding that information. But it was incorrect to change the article without discussion to say it is about this hypothetical village, when the content is entirely about the parish. Aymatth2 (talk) 16:21, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but on your last point, Banner says it used to be on the village--and this seems to bear that out. OK, it says "locality", but I hope you understand why I don't put that much stock in your final argument--"it's about the parish". It's about the parish because Ernst, and then you, made it about the parish. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean it's not a parish. It just means that that particular argument is about merit, whether it comes from Banner or from you (plural). Thanks, Drmies (talk) 17:26, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It was correct to change the thrust of the article from "locality" to civil parish. As a locality it was probably non-notable and not officially recognised having no fixed bounds. It would have smacked of forcing the geographic bounds of one religious tradition (RC) on the the entire "locality". Would this POV have upset people from other religious traditions whose bounds differed but who might still consider themselves to be within the "locality"? As a civil parish, it has official recognition and fixed, unarguable bounds. It's better to go for certainty than uncertainty. With the civil parish, the religious POV potential does not arise. But I see no reason as to why a hamlet and various structures that happen to lie within the civil parish ought not be mentioned in the article. Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:46, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I do not understand your focus on religion here. We are talking about a human settlement and about a civil parish. No way are we talking about the RC parish of Doora or the present RC parish of Doora-Barefield. The Banner talk 18:00, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Doora parish is notable because it is discussed by various sources. Originally it was a Catholic parish, then morphed into a civil parish. "Locality" in this is sort of vague. That early version mentioned the "large area of bogland in the locality", unusual in a village. It listed St Breckans church, local school, GAA ground at Gurteen and "The Shibeen" pub, which are scattered around the civil parish. I would say the article has always been about the civil parish. Logainm.ie, the government database, says Doora is a civil parish and electoral district. Clare County Library gives a collection of content about the civil parish, but has nothing on the hamlet or village. Aymatth2 (talk) 18:20, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is it problematic for you to have its "localitiness" included in the article, one way or another? Drmies (talk) 18:36, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No problem at all for me. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:49, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is for me. "Locality" is vague. Is New York a locality? An encyclopedia should be precise. The article is about a civil parish, and the lead should say so. If there is a village or hamlet by the same name – and I see no evidence that one exists today, although there was once a hamlet called Doora or Dowry in Ballaghboy townland (map) northeast of the ruined St Brecan, Doora – it can have a separate article or can be described in a section in this one. Aymatth2 (talk) 20:01, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So what's the settlement Banner thought was Doora which he drove through then and which google maps currently points too? The article should mention it and also point to the old hamlet of Doora with inline coords I think for clarity.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:28, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Non, yet. With my camera stolen I am not able to make pictures of the non-existing but still existing human settlement. And I have no time (and not much enthusiasm) to go to the library to pick up the sources. And certainly, I don't want another silly and destructive affair like Kilmurry Ibrickane. But I still fail to see why we don't have separate articles about the civil parishes, RC-parishes and villages/towns/other human settlements when relevant and properly sourced. The Banner talk 12:44, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There are various individual houses and clusters of houses in the parish on both sides of the motorway. I do not think the article should mention them unless it can give sources other than Bing or Google Maps. The group around the church in Noughaval townland is quite recent. There is another group around the school in Deerpark townland, and a larger cluster based on the old hamlet of Ballaghboy. The old Doora hamlet has disappeared, but the Bruach Na Habhainn housing estate is just south of it, to the west of the Doora Business Park. This is probably the largest group of houses in the parish, but is really just an extension of Ennis, which contains the west part of the parish including the old Doora hamlet. The parish is indeed inhabited, I suspect largely with commuters to Ennis, but there is no longer a village called Doora. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:48, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Pictures

The article could use more pictures. One that could be use twice would be of the ruined Doora Church. I am not sure how easy it is to get to though, since it seems to be cut off by newly-built houses. If it could be reached, a walk across the fields about 200m to the northwest would reach what is left of the hamlet of Doora, which I think is at 52°50′30″N 8°57′31″W / 52.841794°N 8.958474°W / 52.841794; -8.958474. It does not look like much from the air, but may be interesting from ground level. Any other pictures of communities, landmarks or landscapes in the parish would be useful for a gallery. Aymatth2 (talk) 02:18, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The non-existent village of Doora

In the section above this one, our colleague User:Aymatth2 claims but no village by that name. I doubt that...

First point is the existence of several signs, erected by the Garda Síochána, suggesting that there is a community with the name Doora
Second point is a finger sign pointing to Doora. There are no sign posts for civil or ecclesiastical parishes in Ireland. They always point to human settlements
Third indicator are several grave stones. Those strange Irishmen and -women have the habit of stating the places where someone lived on the gravestone. So, this gravestone tells you that the deceased lived in the places Doora and Fanore (not even a parish)
Fourth indicator is the sign of the church. Sue, when building a church, you will know in what places it is build. And when they wanted to name the RC parish, it would have stated Doora-Barefield.
And with several build up streets, like this one...
... and this one ...
... and this one. And I even failed to make a picture of the road between the church and the school.

The book Doora's Heritage 480-2013; a brief history also states on page 13:

“

The cemetery , in the church grounds was opened in 1923 by Fr. John Scanlan P.P. 1905-1932. (...) Prior to this people were buried in Bunnow and Killavilla. Doora people also had burial rights in Quin Abbey, Clooney, Kilragthis and Killoo. The first person buried in the church grounds in Dorra was Michael Hegarty, Gurteen, who died May 3rd. 1923

”

So, I politely request to accept that there is some sort of human settlement name Doora and correct the mistakes made in this article. The Banner talk 00:04, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The article accurately reflects what the sources say. There is a civil parish named Doora which takes its name from the old hamlet of Doora, shown on the 1842 Ordnance Survey map (reproduced to the right) at 52°50′30″N 8°57′31″W / 52.841794°N 8.958474°W / 52.841794; -8.958474. There are various clusters of houses in the civil parish, some of which are shown on the 1842 map.

St. Breckan's Church, Doora, is more recent (1923 according to Doora's Heritage 480-2013; a brief history). The neat rows of identical houses beside it along Noughaval Drive are clearly a fairly new development. The church and houses do not show on the 1842 map, which shows an isolated "R.C. Chapel" where the church stands now.

The civil parish of Doora, the old hamlet of Doora and the Doora Church (in ruins in 1842) are well-documented, but I do not think there is enough material to justify a stand-alone article on the hamlet of Doora, which was never more than a few houses and has now been totally destroyed. Aymatth2 (talk) 12:13, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What I state above and have documented with the photos is that there is at present a hamlet/village/human settlement with the name Doora. And yes, an RC parish named Doora-barefield and an - solely administrative - civil parish. The Banner talk 14:46, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody is disputing that the civil parish of Doora is inhabited, but it seems very unlikely that the old village of Doora, which gave its name to the parish of Doora, has been replaced by a new village also called Doora but elsewhere in the parish. That would presumably be called "New Doora", like "New York" only smaller. We see "Doora" on a sign in Knockanean townland, a sign for St Breckan's church in Noughaval townland, some distance away but also in the parish of Doora, and a gravestone of someone from Doora. Yes, there is a populated place called Doora, the subject of this article. Aymatth2 (talk) 16:13, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The present church is build in 1836-1838 (Source: Doora's Heritage 480-2013; a brief history, p. 12), so what you see on your 1842 map is the same church as the one standing there today. What was build in 1923 was the graveyard in front of the church.

And as you can see in the lead of this article, it is an article about the civil parish that nowhere mentions the settlement that gave it its name. The Banner talk 16:58, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The article mentions the hamlet under "Antiquities": "An 1842 map notes that the church was in ruins and shows it about 200 metres (660 ft) southwest of what was then the hamlet of Doora, in the west of the townland of Ballaghboy..." When Google Maps is compared to the 1842 map it is easy to locate the ruin of the church and it is clear that the hamlet no longer exists. That would be original research, so is not stated. The article sticks to what the sources say. Aymatth2 (talk) 17:44, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The way that you do your research, makes the whole article unreliable. The Banner talk 19:10, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

By the way: specifically mentions "Doora village". The Banner talk 20:20, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Banner, what part don't you get about articles needing sources to justify claims/information? Anything else is OR, We don't write encyclopedias that way.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:04, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Randy in Boise The Banner talk 19:10, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me than that Banner is clser to Randy than Aymatth2. The article covers the entity with the greater geographic area and the best sources. It does not prevent mention being made of similarly named entities such as hamlets (past and present) or ecclesiastical parishes (Doora-Barefield). So where's the problem? It's grand as it is. I see no compelling reason to change it. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:34, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that Aymatth2 denies that there is a human settlement at present. Enough proof for the existence in 1842, true. But that map shows the present day church and the present day human settlement, something Aymatth2 denies. The Banner talk 20:26, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In the interests of peace, I've added a line referring to the hamlet. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:45, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nice way to introduce even more mistakes. The Banner talk 22:48, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Of course the parish is a populated place, although mostly rural. There is a small housing estate in Bunnow, just south of the old hamlet of Doora, groups of houses in the townlands of Ballaghboy, Knockhogan, Noughaval, Killawinna and Deerpark, and scattered houses elsewhere. Doora has a GAA pitch, a church and a school. The article does not give population figures because there is no source for them, but obviously there are people in the parish using these facilities. What statement in the article does not accurately reflect what the sources say? What other reliable sources give information that should be included? Aymatth2 (talk) 01:05, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- It would be a good idea when you buy a proper recent map and compare that one with your 1842 map. You find the church and the settlement still on the same place. The Banner talk 22:10, 27 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - There is a map at http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=13&lat=52.8412&lon=-8.9758&layers=13 that lets you change transparency to compare the present Bing view and the 1940 Bartholemew Quarter-Inch map. It shows Doora over Ballaghboy, to the north of the old hamlet. I suspect this does not help. Aymatth2 (talk) 22:53, 27 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]