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Talk:Donough MacCarty, 1st Earl of Clancarty/GA2

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GA Review

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Reviewer: John Maynard Friedman (talk · contribs) 10:55, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am about to review this article. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 10:55, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Lead

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  • As a general principle, footnotes should be limited to incidental details or explanations of points that may not be obvious to readers unfamiliar with the topic or or period. So the footnote about the variations of his name does not qualify, it should be in the body. The footnote about Lord Strafford does qualify, but "highest position in Ireland" is far too vague: should it say something like "the King's representative in Ireland, like a modern governor-general but with significantly more executive power"? But in that case, what does the Lord Lieutenant do? By the way, at first use, I would prefer the honorific 'Lord' prefixed to Strafford but maybe this is not conventional?
    • Perhaps the explanations of the spelling variations does qualify for "incidental", but the main reason for putting it to away was that I did not want to start off with something as boring as that. It does not engage the reader. The spelling variations are important of course when you want to make searches in the literature, but the common reader will not go for that. Johannes Schade (talk) 18:21, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Backtracking here today from the mention of Lord Deputy of Ireland at #Honours and Parliaments, I've just had a look at Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and see that you shouldn't mention that title in any event because it didn't come into being until 1690. The Lord Deputy article tells me that Strafford was Lord Deputy, so this is should be reported here. As he is important, you need somewhere to expose his given name (Thomas Wentworth).
  • "He joined the Confederates " needs to be prefixed with "In the War of the Three Kingdoms" to give it wider context.
    • I think Muskerry wanted to join the Irish Confederates precisely and not a side in the British Civil War that he did not really care about. The Confederate war should of course be put into the wider context. I do not like the term. There are worldwide and through time certainly hundreds of wars that involved three kingdoms. It is a politically correct version of British civil War as the Irish nationalists refuse the term "British", in British Civil War when applied to Ireland or in British Isles. Johannes Schade (talk) 18:21, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Expand "Restoration" to "Restoration of the Monarchy".
    • If I do that I should probably also render explicit an Overthrow of the monarchy, which is hidden in the word Commonwealth. Do you feel that more general terms are needed for our Nigerian and Japanese readers? I expanded to Restoration in 1660. Johannes Schade (talk) 18:21, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Within reason, yes. Actually I try to write for GCSE students who have been given an essay assignment. I won't dumb down the language but do try to give them some clear sign-posts for at least the major milestones. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:29, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • After some more thought I think you are right. I therefore changed to a wlinked "restoration of the monarchy". Do you have a suggestions what Commonwealth then should become? It is probably even more confusing to my favoured Nigerian reader and perhaps to your GCSE students as well. Johannes Schade (talk) 08:42, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thank you,  Done
        • Formally it is the Commonwealth of England. I think spelling it out like that is good and will cause readers to do a double take, as indeed thyey should. Agree? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:20, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Which reminds me of an earlier confusion I had. When you refer to "Parliament" during the Confederate War, I am conditioned to think of that in English term: Parliament v King. Clearly you shouldn't bog the article down with a history of Ireland, that you should assume your readers have background knowledge to be in this deep. I wouldn't expect you to recognise a parallel event in, say, Poland. But a note or footnote somewhere would assist an unwary English reader who expects the world to rotate around London. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:47, 7 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to Parliamentarian in the lead and to Commonwealth of England where it occurs in the text. Johannes Schade (talk) 20:53, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Done --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:58, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Birth and origins

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  • His father: the citations say "Cormac". The citation for "also known as 'Charles'" is almost a throw-away in its citation. I suggest that this is clutter and I would delete.
    • Do I understand you correctly that the citation you mean is "He [Charles] d. v.p. being slain ..."? Did you not realise that I added the "[Charles]" part to explain who "he" is? I thought it was conventional to do this in quotations. MOS:QUOTE has examples for adding "things" between square brackets ([]) in quotes, even if not precisely in the manner I do. Johannes Schade (talk) 08:42, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, [...] is the convention as you say. My concern is more about a seemingly arbitrary choice of which name to use, that it should be "He [Cormac] d. v.p. being slain..." or if ambiguous then "He [Cormac (Charles)] d. v.p.... "
        • Changed to "He [Charles (Cormac)] d. v.p.... " I decided to make Charles his main name.
          • Ok, the main issue was consistent treatment.  Done
  • I don't really understand why their religion was so significant, maybe this needs a specific sub-section to explain?
    • Reading on about The Graces, I am now even more confused. You say that the family was protestant, that his mother was protestant, so how did he get to be catholic?
    • Ok, I didn't know that the Confederate War in Ireland was a war of religion. I'm even more sure that you need a subsection to explain the religious background.
  • "Oge" : google translate does not recognise this word as Irish Gaelic. Did you mean Óg (Oge)?
    • You are right this is not correct in Irish, but I am just repeating what I find in the English literature. They say "Cormac Oge". In Irish "young" is "óg" and younger is "óige" [ˈɔːɟɪ] (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/óg), but all the literature says "oge". I suppose it is a older or Munster-local form of óige or an anglicisation of it? I think Irish does not really get transliterated as it is written with the Latin alphabet. I think there is no doubt it means "younger" and that is all I wanted to say. Johannes Schade (talk) 18:21, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Fine but you have written "was distinguished from his grandfather by the Gaelic epithet 'Oge'," when it is not Gaelic. How about "was distinguished from his grandfather by the Gaelic epithet Óg, (transliterated into English as 'Oge') meaning 'young'"? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:48, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Changed the wording so that it does not say Gael but "coming from Gaelic".Johannes Schade (talk) 20:54, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
          • It would read better as "an Anglicised form of the Gaelic" --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 21:40, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
            • I had another look at Oge. It seems indeed to be an anglicisation. The "i" in "óige" is mute. The anglicisation dropped the acute accent (called "fada"), which makes the o long, and omitted the mute "i". In Irish most consonants can be pronounced "broad" or "slender" according to the accompanying vowel. A bit like the c and the g in English words of French origin. The "g" in "óige" is a slender "g", which sounds a bit like the English g in "age". Now Irish has a spelling rule "slender with slender and broad with broad", which says that slender consonants must have slender vowel (i,e) before and after the slender consonant, hence the introduction of a mute "i", or that is as I understand it now.
  • The caption on the portrait "The 2nd Viscount Muskerry" needs expanding to say "Donough MacCarty as the 2nd Viscount Muskerry". Readers do need these signposts.
    • This portrait is badly misplaced. It should be next to the text to which it relates, ("On 20 February 1641, Sir Donough's father, aged about 77, died in London, during his parliamentary mission.")

Early life, marriage, and children

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  • "MacCarty married Eleanor Butler " Which MacCarthy? (I know what you mean but I shouldn't have to stop to work it out. Best use forenames in this section.
    • I added the first name at this place.
    • Done Johannes Schade (talk) 18:21, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • It would read better as "Donough married ...". --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 21:49, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • There are editors who told me not to use his first name when he is an adult. WP:BIODD "Use full name in the first sentence, surname after". Doing this sounds weird I agree with you, but you find this implemented in many biographies in Wikipedia. Luckily having a title solves the problem in his later life. I suppose when somebodies family has not been discusses it is without problem to say "Einstein did ...".

Honours and parliaments

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  • State opening of Parliament: the word order is a bit awkward. I would write it as "The Parliament was opened with all pomp on 14 July 1634 by the new Lord Deputy of Ireland,[77][78] Lord Strafford,[79] who had taken up office in July 1633.
    • You need to check the article for this kind of WP:EGG, it was only when suggesting a rewrite that I spotted that Wentworth and Strafford are the same person. War and Peace syndrome! :-D
  • "The House of Commons had a Protestant majority[81] as King James I had created 39 pocket boroughs to that effect for his Irish Parliament of 1613–1615.[82]" is wp:SYNTH. The source say that James created the pocket boroughs to ensure a government majority.
My quote just says "James created thirty-nine new boroughs expressly for parliamentary purposes ...". This is at p 109, line 3. A bit further it says Government strong but if you read what is before at the middle of p108 it says "it was necessary to secure a Protestant majority".
    • Government majority meant Protestant majority in these crazy religious ("sectarian" as we would say in modern Northern Ireland) times.
      • But you are straying into SYNTH. The citation just says "government". I appreciate that it becomes more obvious when we get to The Graces but I think you are jumping the gun. Maybe you can explain that the government had to be Protestant but you can't misrepresent the source. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 00:02, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the Lord Deputy at the time, Lord Falkland, never held that parliament." 'Convened' that parliament? (I mis-stepped here because I was expecting something like 'Falkland never held that parliament had the right to do so". A legalistic interpretation of the word 'hold', perhaps?)
    • Indeed. I must be wasting a lawyer's time. I chose neutral and slightly imprecise "held" because I think the King summons the parliament on proposition by the viceroy. Changed to "summoned" nevertheless. Do you agree?
  • "Sir Donough therefore expected to see the graces confirmed in this parliament[87][88]" I'm a bit worried that this may be wp:SYNTH since the citations just say that Catholic landowners in general expected. But it is a reasonable surmise.
    • I think this WP:SYNTH is a dangerous one that one should not take to sharp otherwise we will limit ourselves severely and cannot write texts that make sense to the reader. Take also into consideration that if I gave only the page, you would you would have much more trouble to cry WP:SYNTH.
  • "Catholic MPs expressed their anger by voting against any law proposed by Wentworth thereafter and due to absenteeism among the Protestant MPs, they were able to vote several laws down. Sir Donough, as a Catholic, surely voted them down." Avoid the wp:synth by rephrasing as "Catholic MPs, who included Sir Donough in their number, expressed their anger by voting against any law proposed by Wentworth thereafter and due to absenteeism among the Protestant MPs, they were able to vote several laws down. "
  • Ok, I'm being a clever clogs here, but I would insert a wiktionary link thus: "The committee compiled a [[Wikt:remonstrate|remonstrance]] (or complaint) against Strafford" though I suppose it would be disqualified as a wp:egg.
  • "Sir Donough therefore succeeded as 2nd Viscount Muskerry" The portrait caption needs to say "Portrait of Sir Donough as the 2nd Viscount Muskerry". In fact, I would create a subsection called "Viscount Muskerry" and put into it the portrait and the whole paragraph beginning "On 20 February 1641, Sir Donough's father, "

Irish wars

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    • The approach of Mountgarret's rebel army as another motivator is uncited. The article about Mountgarret piqued my interest, where it says that "After this he was chosen general of the Catholic Confederation which the rebels had formed to coordinate their war effort; but the county of Cork having insisted on choosing a general of its own. Thus were lost the advantages of undivided and vigorous control of the Confederate armies. The Viscount's forces were thereby considerably weakened, and he was defeated by the Earl of Ormonde at the Battle of Kilrush, near Athy, on 10 April 1642." This decision not to coalesce seems to have been a serious error of military judgement that deserves explanation if it can be done briefly (I'm conscious of mission creep, so skip if it isn't trivial to do).
    • I notice also that that Mountgarret article uses the term Anglican rather than 'Protestant' - this may be just me but I associate the latter term more with nonconformism and evangelicalism. Worthy of consideration, not a show-stopper by any means,
    • You are of course right. I did not want to bring in the distinction, which is important in Northern Ireland, but not for Lord Muskerry in Munster. It seems to me that Protestant is generally accepted for covering both the Anglicans and the nonconformant Protestants in the present context. Johannes Schade (talk) 08:42, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Restoration, death, and timeline

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Line-by-line review complete

GA criteria

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  1. Is it well written?
    A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct: yes
    B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation: yes, but GOCE review advised.
  2. Is it verifiable with no original research?
    A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:
    B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:
    C. It contains no original research:
    D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:
    B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
  4. Is it neutral?
    It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
  5. Is it stable?
    It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
  6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:
    B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:
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