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Major edit summarizing political positions

Just thought I'd start a new section in case people have anything to say about this recent edit I made. The climate change topic above is sort of related, but this is for a larger discussion about other things that have been changed or removed as well. JasperTECH (talk) 23:19, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Wow, a 10% reduction in rps in one fell swoop? I hereby award you the Trimming Barnstar of Brilliant Prose! — JFG ^talk 01:05, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, wow indeed. If we want to make major reductions in article size it needs to be done one step at a time. Doing so in the middle of a discussion is inappropriate. Making such a major deletion for the sake of page length goes against guidelines. Content should not be removed from articles simply to reduce length. Also, the POV template is not to be removed until the issue in question has been resolved. The major deletion comes off as an ulterior attempt to avoid that process. it's also not considerate to the many editors who gave their time and effort to the article. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 01:41, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

@Gwillhickers: No content was lost: everything is developed in excruciating detail in the myriad other articles about Trump's business, campaign, hair (thank God that one got deleted) and sex life. Besides, page history is your friend; feel free to restore what you think was unduly trimmed. However, please bear in mind that we have prior consensus that the Donald Trump article was too long, laden as it was with undue factoids and convoluted language from campaign times. In other words we all want to make it more encyclopedic, and that starts with sharper prose. I sincerely hope that most readers don't come to Wikipedia to argue ad nauseam over every tweet of The Donald and every over-reaction from well-meaning pundits. — JFG ^talk 02:23, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Sorry Gwillhickers, I wasn't aware of any guidelines saying that edits should be done in smaller portions, so please let me know if there are guidelines I missed. I decided to do it one swoop to make the section consistent instead of having full, lengthy segments for some political positions and summarized versions for others. I wish you would have stated what exactly was wrong with the edit instead of simply undoing the entire thing. I didn't just make a "major deletion," but re-wrote large portions of the section to condense the policy positions.

Please remember to assume good faith—I had no ulterior motives in editing the section down, nor what I trying to disrupt the ongoing conversation. The political positions simply have a lot of undue weight, and I was hoping to improve the article by shortening them. Take a look at the political positions in the Hillary Clinton article, for instance.

The POV template was removed because the climate section had been edited down to one sentence saying he disagreed with the scientific consensus of climate change. To me, it didn't seem there would be any debate about that, and new material could be reinstated if people felt it should be expanded. However, a POV-inline template could have certainly been added to the shortened version instead of reverting the whole edit.

The reason I felt free to do a major trimming of the section in this article is because there is a already a massive article about the political positions of Donald Trump. People's efforts to improve the political section in this article were not in vain, but can still be used to improve the main political positions article as well.

Would you mind self-reverting your recent removal of the edit I made? There's no doubt this section needs to be shortened, and if you or any editors see specific problems with content I removed or shortened, feel free to improve it by readding material from before the deletion, adding tags, or discussing it here. Thanks! JasperTECH (talk) 02:42, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

The guidelines involved were mentioned and linked to. Regarding 'one step at a time', again this should be done for reasons mentioned, esp out of consideration to other contributors. As for coverage in other articles, yes, there are other articles, but the main article should have a comprehensive and summary representation of the major topics and issues, while the sub articles can cover these things in greater depth. Main articles and sub articles commonly have a healthy amount of informational overlap, which is good. Just because something is mentioned in a sub article doesn't mean we have to say next to nothing about that topic in the main article. In reducing the climate change topic to a sentence or two, we still had the same problem, where Trump's position was not fairly and clearly represented. Last, I said the major deletion came off as an attempt to skirt the POV resolution and subsequent tag removal. Had I thought you made the deletion for this purpose explicitly I would have said so. I've no qualms about reducing some of the text, but given the said situations this should be done mindfully. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:28, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

@Gwillhickers: I'm not sure why you hid the above discussion under a collapsing template, but I'm going to undo that edit because I feel it is still relevant for future editors.

Some of the concerns you expressed can be resolved by having an easy-to-compare version of the text before and after the edit. Since I have rearranged large portions of text in order of (what I perceive to be) most notability to least notability, the original text has also been rearranged to easily compare the two versions. Additionally, I've made a few changes that are different from the original edit.

It can be very difficult to compare edits using the diff tool, so hopefully the table below will make it easier.

Table comparing text before and after

File:Donald Trump and Mike Pence RNC July 2016.jpg Trump has described his political leanings and positions in various ways over time. Politico has described his positions as "eclectic, improvisational and often contradictory". He has listed several different party affiliations over the years and has also run as a Reform Party candidate. The positions that he has revised or reversed include stances on progressive taxation, abortion, and government involvement in health care. Trump's political positions are widely described by the media as "populist". Trump has described his political positions in various and often contradictory ways over time. Trump stated, "I have evolved on many issues. There are some issues that are very much the same, I've been constant on many issues. But I have evolved on certain issues." PolitiFact.com wrote that it is difficult to determine Trump's stance on issues, given his frequent changes in position and "his penchant for using confusing, vague and even contradictory language". PolitiFact.com counted at least 17 times when Trump said something and then denied having said it. Economic issues Trump's campaign tax plan calls for reducing the corporate tax rate to 15%, concurrent with the elimination of various business loopholes and deductions. Personal income taxes would also be reduced; the top rate would be reduced from 39.6% to 25%, a large "zero bracket" would be created, and the alternative minimum tax would be eliminated, as would the estate tax (which currently applies to individual estates over $5.45 million or $10.9 million per married couple). Under Trump's economic plan, families with head-of-household filing status making between $20,000 and $200,000, including many single parents, would pay more in taxes than under current tax law, due to Trump's elimination of some deductions and exemptions. Several reports assess that the economy would be "diminished" by heavy job losses and recession under Trump's economic policies, with a large number of economists, including 19 of 32 living Nobel laureates, warning against his economic policies. Two analyses find that Trump's economic plan will have mixed results; one analysis finds that Trump's plan would create short-term economic gains but major long-term economic losses in terms of jobs, and another analysis finds that the plan will create 2.2 million jobs, a major increase in capital stock and some wage growth, but by increasing federal debt by between $2.6 trillion and $3.9 trillion. Trump's comments about the minimum wage have been inconsistent: he has said that a low minimum wage is good; that the minimum wage should not be raised; that the minimum wage should be raised; that he would like an increase, but the states should do the increasing; that he is against any federal minimum wage floor; and that he is in favor of a $10 federal minimum wage, but "let the states make the deal". Trump identifies as a "free trader", but says that trade must be "reasonably fair", and has described supporters of international trade deals that are good for other countries but not good for the United States as "blood suckers". He has often been referred to as "protectionist". He says NAFTA has been the "worst trade deal in history", and would as president either renegotiate or break the NAFTA agreement. He opposes the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). Trump proposes to raise tariffs on Chinese exports to the United States by 45%, and has raised the idea of placing 35% tariffs on Mexican exports to the United States. Trump has called the World Trade Organization (WTO) a "disaster", and favors renegotiating or leaving the WTO unless it allows his proposed tariff increases. Immigration Trump's immigration policies have been among his most highly discussed policies during the campaign. Some of his proposals have come under scrutiny by several experts on immigration who question the effectiveness and affordability of his plans. Trump vows to build a substantial wall on the Mexico–United States border to keep out illegal immigrants, a wall which Trump promises Mexico will pay for. Trump would also create a "deportation force" to deport around 11 million people illegally residing in the U.S., stating "Day 1 of my presidency, [illegal immigrants] are getting out and getting out fast." Trump opposes birthright citizenship. In late August 2016, Trump hinted he might soften his position calling for the deportation of all undocumented immigrants. On August 31, 2016, he made a visit to Mexico and met with Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto, saying he wanted to build relations with the country. However, in a major speech later that night, Trump laid out a 10-point plan reaffirming his hardline positions, including building a wall along the Mexican border to be paid for by Mexico, potentially deporting "anyone who has entered the United States illegally", denying legal status to such people unless they leave the country and apply for re-entry, and creating a deportation task force. He said the focus of the task force would be criminals, those who have overstayed their visas, and other "security threats". One of Trump's most controversial proposals was his original proposal in 2015 for a "total and complete" temporary ban on foreign Muslims entering the United States. Trump later changed his position in 2016 by stating that the temporary ban would apply only to people originating from countries with a "proven history of terrorism against the United States or its allies", or countries "compromised by terrorism". Trump characterized this as an expansion, not rollback, of his original proposal. Climate change Trump rejects the scientific consensus on climate change, repeatedly saying that global warming is a "hoax". Trump has called the EPA a "disgrace" and has promised to cut its budget, and Bob Walker, a senior campaign adviser, has announced plans to eliminate funding for NASA's Earth Science program. Trump has pledged to eliminate the Clean Power Plan and withdraw from the Paris Climate Agreement, which calls for reductions in carbon emissions in more than 170 countries, saying that it treats the United States unfairly and gives favorable treatment to countries like China. However, after winning the presidency, Trump said he has an "open mind" towards the Paris agreement, while continuing to deny that man-made global warming is fact. Trump has appointed Myron Ebell, director of the Competitive Enterprise Institute advocacy group, as head of the future EPA transition team. Ebell has no scientific qualifications, and is well-known for denying that Earth is warming or that humans are responsible. Education Trump has stated his support for school choice and local control for primary and secondary schools. He opposes the Common Core State Standards Initiative for primary and secondary schools, and has called Common Core "a disaster" that must be ended. He has stated he would abolish all or part of the Department of Education. Foreign policy Trump has been described as non-interventionist and nationalist. Trump has repeatedly stated that he supports "America First" foreign policy, though he is not linked to the historical isolationist America First Party (1944) or the defunct paleoconservative America First Party (2002). He supports increasing United States military defense spending, but favors decreasing United States spending on NATO and in the Pacific region. He says America should look inward, stop "nation building", and re-orient its resources toward domestic needs. He questions whether he, as president, would automatically extend security guarantees to NATO members, and suggests that he might leave NATO unless changes are made to the alliance. Trump has called for Japan to pay for the costs of American troops stationed there and that it might need to develop nuclear weapons in order to protect itself from North Korea. File:Trump in Ames (24490966335).jpg In order to confront ISIS, Trump in 2015 called for seizing the oil in ISIS occupied areas, using U.S. air power and ground troops. In 2016, Trump advocated sending 20,000 to 30,000 U.S. troops to the region, a position he retracted. He has since argued that regional allies of the U.S., such as Saudi Arabia should provide troops in the fight. He also believes that oil fields in ISIS-controlled areas should be bombed. He supports the use of waterboarding, a form of torture, and has said he would "bring back a hell of a lot worse". Trump has also said he will dismantle the international nuclear agreement with Iran as president. Regarding the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, Trump has stated the importance of being a neutral party during potential negotiations, while also having stated that he is "a big fan of Israel." He supports Israeli settlement construction in the West Bank. During his 2016 Presidential campaign, Trump repeatedly said that he opposed the Iraq War even before it was launched, although his public position had been unclear at the time. In 2002, when asked whether he supported invading Iraq, Trump responded, "Yeah, I guess so" and added "I wish the first time it was done correctly" in reference to the Gulf War of 1990–1991. Shortly before the 2003 invasion, he said: "Well, [Bush's] either got to do something—or not do something, perhaps. […] And perhaps we should be waiting for the United Nations." Trump publicly referred to the war as a "mess" within a week after it began, and by 2004 he said he was opposed to it. Since 2004, he has repeatedly criticized the war, especially during the primary debates with Jeb Bush. Trump has at times during his presidential campaign stated that the Afghanistan War was a mistake, and at other times stated that it was necessary. He supports keeping a limited number of United States troops there. Trump was a strong supporter of the 2011 military intervention in Libya at the time. He has since then reversed his position several times, saying finally in June 2016 that he would have supported "surgical" bombing against Gaddafi. Trump would consider recognizing Crimea as Russian territory and lifting sanctions on Russia. He added that Russia could help the United States in fighting ISIS militants. In the same interview, Trump sarcastically stated that he hoped Russia would unearth Hillary Clinton's missing emails from her time as Secretary of State. Social issues Trump describes himself as "pro-life" and generally opposes abortion with some exceptions: rape, incest, and circumstances endangering the health of the mother. The Susan B. Anthony List, an anti-abortion political advocacy group, praised Trump's list of potential Supreme Court nominees as "exceptionally strong", while NARAL Pro-Choice America called the candidates on the list "a woman's worst nightmare". Trump has stated that he supports "traditional marriage". He opposes the 2015 Obergefell v. Hodges Supreme Court ruling that legalized same-sex marriage nationwide and believes the decision should be left to individual states. Trump had stated that if he were elected, he would "strongly consider" appointing Supreme Court justices that would overturn the ruling. Trump supports a broad interpretation of the Second Amendment and says he is opposed to gun control in general, although his views have shifted over time. He supports fixing the federal background check system so that criminal and mental health records are always put into the system. Trump opposes legalizing recreational marijuana but supports legalizing medical marijuana. Trump favors capital punishment. Health care Trump favors repealing and replacing the Affordable Care Act ("Obamacare") with a different free-market plan that would allow health insurance to be sold across state lines, enable individuals to deduct health insurance premiums, expand health savings accounts, and give more control of Medicaid to the states. He has voiced support for a single-payer healthcare system in the past, but distanced himself from the idea during his 2016 campaign. In October 2016 he falsely said that he had said the ACA was a "disaster" since before it was passed by Congress. He said in June 2009 that he loved the idea, but questioned whether the country could afford it. Trump favors getting rid of backlogs and waitlists that are the focus of the Veterans Health Administration scandal, and believes that Veterans Affairs facilities need to be upgraded. Fringe theories According to political writer Steve Benen, unlike past political leaders, Trump has not kept fringe theories and their supporters at arm's length. Political writer Jack Shafer says that Trump may be a "fairly conventional American populist when it comes to his policy views", but he has a revolutionary ability to attract free media attention, sometimes by making outrageous comments. For many years, beginning in at least 2011, Trump publicly questioned President Obama's citizenship status; in 2016, during his presidential campaign, Trump stated that Obama was born in the U.S. In the past, he has also alluded to the conspiracy theory that President Obama is secretly a Muslim. Trump has discussed the unfounded notion that vaccine doses cause autism if administered too quickly in succession, and the conspiracy theory that former Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia might not have died of natural causes but was murdered. He repeated a National Enquirer allegation that Rafael Cruz, father of Ted Cruz, may have been involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Trump has described his political leanings and positions in various ways over time. Politico has described his positions as "eclectic, improvisational and often contradictory", while NBC News counted "141 distinct shifts on 23 major issues" during his campaign. He has listed several different party affiliations over the years and has also run as a Reform Party candidate. The political positions of Trump have widely been described by the media as "populist", and many of his views cross party lines. For example, his economic campaign plan calls for large reductions in income taxes and deregulation, consistent with conservative (Republican Party) policies, along with significant infrastructure investment, usually considered a liberal (Democratic Party) policy. Trump identifies as a "free trader", but has often been referred to as "protectionist" because of his criticism of NAFTA, the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), and his proposal to raise tariffs on Chinese and Mexican exports to the United States significantly. Trump's immigration policies have been among his most highly discussed policies during the campaign. Some of his proposals have come under scrutiny by several experts on immigration who question the effectiveness and affordability of his plans. Trump vows to build a wall on the Mexico–United States border to keep out illegal immigrants, promising that Mexico will pay for it. He would also create a "deportation force" to deport around 11 million people illegally residing in the U.S. One of Trump's most controversial proposals was his original proposal in 2015 for a "total and complete" temporary ban on foreign Muslims entering the United States. Trump later changed his position in 2016 by stating that the temporary ban would apply only to people originating from countries with a "proven history of terrorism against the United States or its allies", or countries "compromised by terrorism". Trump characterized this as an expansion, not rollback, of his original proposal. Trump rejects the scientific consensus on climate change that humans are the main cause of global warming. He has called the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) a "disgrace" and has promised to cut its budget, and Bob Walker, a senior campaign adviser, has announced plans to eliminate funding for NASA's Earth Science program. Trump has pledged to eliminate the Clean Power Plan and withdraw from the Paris Climate Agreement, which calls for reductions in carbon emissions in more than 170 countries. However, after winning the presidency, Trump said he has an "open mind" towards the Paris agreement, while continuing to deny that man-made global warming is fact. Trump has stated his support for school choice and local control for primary and secondary schools. He opposes the Common Core State Standards Initiative for primary and secondary schools, and has called Common Core "a disaster" that must be ended. He has stated he would abolish all or part of the Department of Education. Trump has been described as non-interventionist and nationalist. He has repeatedly stated that he supports "America First" foreign policy by increasing military defense spending, but favors decreasing United States spending on NATO and in the Pacific region. In order to confront ISIS, Trump in 2015 called for seizing oil or bombing oil fields in ISIS occupied areas, using U.S. air power and ground troops. In 2016, Trump advocated sending 20,000 to 30,000 U.S. troops to the region, a position he retracted. He has since argued that regional allies of the U.S., such as Saudi Arabia should provide troops in the fight. Trump has also said he will dismantle the international nuclear agreement with Iran as president. He describes himself as "pro-life" and generally opposes abortion with some exceptions: rape, incest, and circumstances endangering the health of the mother; he has stated that he supports "traditional marriage". Trump supports a broad interpretation of the Second Amendment and says he is opposed to gun control in general, although his views have shifted over time. Trump opposes legalizing recreational marijuana but supports legalizing medical marijuana. He favors capital punishment, as well as the use of waterboarding, a form of torture. Trump favors repealing and replacing the Affordable Care Act ("Obamacare") with a different free-market plan that would allow health insurance to be sold across state lines, enable individuals to deduct health insurance premiums, expand health savings accounts, and give more control of Medicaid to the states. He has voiced support for a single-payer healthcare system in the past, but distanced himself from the idea during his 2016 campaign. According to political writer Jack Shafer, Trump may be a "fairly conventional American populist when it comes to his policy views", but he has a revolutionary ability to attract free media attention, sometimes by making outrageous comments. Trump has discussed the unfounded notion that vaccine doses cause autism if administered too quickly in succession, and the conspiracy theory that former Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia might not have died of natural causes but was murdered. He repeated a National Enquirer allegation that Rafael Cruz, father of Ted Cruz, may have been involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy. For many years, beginning in at least 2011, Trump publicly questioned President Obama's citizenship status; during his 2016 presidential campaign, Trump stated that Obama was born in the U.S. In the past, he has also alluded to the conspiracy theory that President Obama is secretly a Muslim. References References

editbreak2

Suggestions welcome. If there are no comments for a while, I'll reinstate the edit. JasperTECH (talk) 18:29, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't support your massive removal - the PP section here is tiny in comparison to the main article and does a good job of giving an overview of his positions - I suggest you start an RfC. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 22:42, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

@Somedifferentstuff: Not a bad idea, though I'm honestly surprised at the lack of support for this proposal. The articles on Barack Obama, George W. Bush, and Bill Clinton don't have huge sections on political opinions like this article does. It makes sense to me that excessive detail on his political opinions should be removed in anticipation of all the other items that will begin to occupy the article, like his presidential transition and eventual actions as president.

I will certainly consider an RfC, but first I'll do a "min-RfC" by doing a courtesy ping to everyone who commented in the section above about climate change, since that is related to this proposal. @Gwillhickers, MrX, Sagittarian Milky Way, Objective3000, JFG, Madshurtie, and Volunteer Marek: Your opinions on this proposed change are welcome (I realize I'm double-pinging some people, but that way everyone gets notified). JasperTECH (talk) 23:44, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Support. I generally prefer brevity. There is a middle ground between academe who often go for large word counts (and sometimes obscure wordings), and those that think you can express complex concepts in 140 characters. I think that brevity in this case is more important, as the subject’s political positions appear to be in constant motion. I think the trim is a great effort and should be installed, after which people can fine tune what they think isn’t perfect. Objective3000 (talk) 00:16, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Soft support. This article probably needs a trim at the moment and will definitely do so as Trump's transition and presidency progress. JasperTech's logic seems reasonable, though I don't know if there's anything in policy about preemptive splitting. Madshurtie (talk) 00:32, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

As pointed out, Content should not be removed from articles simply to reduce length. Adding or removing content should be based on the idea of making a comprehensive summary. Also, the page is still going through a metamorphosis, so trying to delete and/or move content in the capacity JasperTech is suggesting, at this unstable stage of the game, is not advisable. Last, page length guidelines say that guidelines are best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply. If the only reason to delete/move content is because of page length, then no, that's not a good enough reason. There are plenty of GA and FA articles whose length far exceed guidelines. The Ronald Reagan and Barak Obama featured articles provides us with two definitive examples. There are many more. President's articles are generally longer than the average biography so we are not pushing the envelope on that note. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 01:55, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

@Gwillhickers: As I said above, "The political positions simply have a lot of undue weight, and I was hoping to improve the article by shortening them"—the purpose was not mainly to shorten the article (though it doesn't hurt if it could be made more concise).

Madshurtie, it does seem like there aren't a lot of policies or guidelines that I can cite in this situation. Here are some relevant ones, but editor judgment is required to make sense of what terms like "briefly" actually mean.

• WP:SPINOFF says it may be necessary to split articles where individual sections create an undue weight problem. Then summary sections are used in the main article to briefly describe the content of the much more detailed subarticle(s) (emphasis added).
• WP:DETAIL is more vague, but says that information about a topic need not all be contained in a single article since different readers have different needs:
  • many readers need just a quick summary of the topic's most important points (lead section)
  • others need a moderate amount of information on the topic's more important points (a set of multiparagraph sections) (emphasis added)
  • some readers need a lot of details on one or more aspects of the topic (links to full-sized separate subarticles)

It's worth pointing out that in the political positions article, there is a discussion on the talk page (albeit one that's a few days old) about splitting it into about three parts. If that was done, the full three layers mentioned above would be quite well represented since the political positions article would be smaller and easier to navigate for the average reader. JasperTECH (talk) 03:53, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Summarizing is hard work, which is why I thank JasperTech for his initiative. This section still has a lot of campaign-related fluff which should be trimmed down to a sober summary of Trump's policies, with more weight given to his current official positions (if any) than to hyperbolic campaign pronouncements. That being said, the proposed version omits quite a few relevant policy areas which should be briefly covered too. To ease editing, I will open a structured working draft below which we can collectively refine until reaching a consensus version. — JFG ^talk 04:51, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I am very much in favor of what you did with the "fringe theory" section. It definitely makes more sense at the top. I'm still learning about formatting tables, so thanks for pitching in. This one will be a lot easier to edit! JasperTECH (talk) 05:37, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Directionally, this looks pretty good with the following exceptions:

• Under Social issues, let's not use the twisted euphemism "he has stated that he supports traditional marriage". It should be changed to "He opposes the 2015 Obergefell v. Hodges Supreme Court ruling that legalized same-sex marriage nationwide and believes the decision should be left to individual states, and that he would "strongly consider" appointing Supreme Court justices that would overturn the ruling."

Are you sure? I heard Trump in a recent interview (October probably) answer squarely that the question of same-sex marriage was "settled by the highest court" and that he wouldn't attempt to touch it, notwithstanding his personal views on the matter. I believe you are referring to his position on abortion, which indeed he said should be left to the States, hinting at the possibility of having the Supreme Court some day overturn Roe v. Wade (but that wouldn't be his call, obviously, separation of powers and all that…) Therefore I believe we should rather write something like "Trump personally supports traditional marriage^{[cite 1]} but has confirmed that the legality of same-sex marriage nationwide was a settled issue".^{[cite 2]} No time to hunt for sources right now, sorry. — JFG ^talk 13:48, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

No, I'm not sure. The problem is that he seems to straddle his position on controversial issues to suit the mood. If he has published a clear, unequivocal, unwavering position on SSM, then I am not aware of it.- MrX 14:08, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Here you go: Trump: Same-sex marriage is 'settled,' but Roe v Wade can be changed (now amended in working draft) — JFG ^talk 14:58, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

OK, I can live with that.- MrX 22:01, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

• Under Fringe theories, I'm OK with removing the "questioned President Obama's citizenship status" material as long as we retain the similar material elsewhere in the article.- MrX 13:32, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, this sad episode is covered by a lengthy, well-cited and community-supported paragraph in the "Political involvement 1988–2015" section, I distinctly remember helping craft a consensus version at the time (although it's been somewhat bludgeoned since then, but that's ok). — JFG ^talk 13:48, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Working draft

ORIGINAL TEXT	PROPOSED SUMMARY
Trump has described his political leanings and positions in various ways over time. Politico has described his positions as "eclectic, improvisational and often contradictory". He has listed several different party affiliations over the years and has also run as a Reform Party candidate. The positions that he has revised or reversed include stances on progressive taxation, abortion, and government involvement in health care. Trump's political positions are widely described by the media as "populist". Trump has described his political positions in various and often contradictory ways over time. Trump stated, "I have evolved on many issues. There are some issues that are very much the same, I've been constant on many issues. But I have evolved on certain issues." PolitiFact.com wrote that it is difficult to determine Trump's stance on issues, given his frequent changes in position and "his penchant for using confusing, vague and even contradictory language". PolitiFact.com counted at least 17 times when Trump said something and then denied having said it.	Trump has described his political leanings and positions in various ways over time. Politico has described his positions as "eclectic, improvisational and often contradictory", while NBC News counted "141 distinct shifts on 23 major issues" during his campaign. He has listed several different party affiliations over the years and has also run as a Reform Party candidate. The political positions of Donald Trump have widely been described by the media as "populist", and many of his views cross party lines. For example, his economic campaign plan calls for large reductions in income taxes and deregulation, consistent with conservative (Republican Party) policies, along with significant infrastructure investment, usually considered a liberal (Democratic Party) policy. According to political writer Jack Shafer, Trump may be a "fairly conventional American populist when it comes to his policy views", but he has a revolutionary ability to attract free media attention, sometimes by making outrageous comments.
Economic issues Trump's campaign tax plan calls for reducing the corporate tax rate to 15%, concurrent with the elimination of various business loopholes and deductions. Personal income taxes would also be reduced; the top rate would be reduced from 39.6% to 25%, a large "zero bracket" would be created, and the alternative minimum tax would be eliminated, as would the estate tax (which currently applies to individual estates over $5.45 million or $10.9 million per married couple). Under Trump's economic plan, families with head-of-household filing status making between $20,000 and $200,000, including many single parents, would pay more in taxes than under current tax law, due to Trump's elimination of some deductions and exemptions. Several reports assess that the economy would be "diminished" by heavy job losses and recession under Trump's economic policies, with a large number of economists, including 19 of 32 living Nobel laureates, warning against his economic policies. Two analyses find that Trump's economic plan will have mixed results; one analysis finds that Trump's plan would create short-term economic gains but major long-term economic losses in terms of jobs, and another analysis finds that the plan will create 2.2 million jobs, a major increase in capital stock and some wage growth, but by increasing federal debt by between $2.6 trillion and $3.9 trillion. Trump's comments about the minimum wage have been inconsistent: he has said that a low minimum wage is good; that the minimum wage should not be raised; that the minimum wage should be raised; that he would like an increase, but the states should do the increasing; that he is against any federal minimum wage floor; and that he is in favor of a $10 federal minimum wage, but "let the states make the deal". Trump identifies as a "free trader", but says that trade must be "reasonably fair", and has described supporters of international trade deals that are good for other countries but not good for the United States as "blood suckers". He has often been referred to as "protectionist". He says NAFTA has been the "worst trade deal in history", and would as president either renegotiate or break the NAFTA agreement. He opposes the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). Trump proposes to raise tariffs on Chinese exports to the United States by 45%, and has raised the idea of placing 35% tariffs on Mexican exports to the United States. Trump has called the World Trade Organization (WTO) a "disaster", and favors renegotiating or leaving the WTO unless it allows his proposed tariff increases.	Economy Trump's campaign tax plan called for levelling the corporate tax rate to 15%, eliminating various business loopholes and deductions, and reducing the number of brackets for personal income tax: the top rate would be reduced from 39.6% to 25%, a large "zero bracket" would be created, and the alternative minimum tax and estate tax (which currently applies to individual estates over $5.45 million or $10.9 million per married couple) would both be eliminated. His comments about the minimum wage have been inconsistent. Many economists have been critical of Trump's economic policies, with several reports assessing that his campaign plan would increase tax rates for families earning between $20,000 to $200,000 a year, cause long-term job losses and recession, and significantly increase the federal debt. Trump identifies as a "free trader", but has often been referred to as "protectionist" because of his criticism of NAFTA, the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), and his proposal to raise tariffs on Chinese and Mexican exports to the United States significantly.
Immigration Trump's immigration policies have been among his most highly discussed policies during the campaign. Some of his proposals have come under scrutiny by several experts on immigration who question the effectiveness and affordability of his plans. Trump vows to build a substantial wall on the Mexico–United States border to keep out illegal immigrants, a wall which Trump promises Mexico will pay for. Trump would also create a "deportation force" to deport around 11 million people illegally residing in the U.S., stating "Day 1 of my presidency, [illegal immigrants] are getting out and getting out fast." Trump opposes birthright citizenship. In late August 2016, Trump hinted he might soften his position calling for the deportation of all undocumented immigrants. On August 31, 2016, he made a visit to Mexico and met with Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto, saying he wanted to build relations with the country. However, in a major speech later that night, Trump laid out a 10-point plan reaffirming his hardline positions, including building a wall along the Mexican border to be paid for by Mexico, potentially deporting "anyone who has entered the United States illegally", denying legal status to such people unless they leave the country and apply for re-entry, and creating a deportation task force. He said the focus of the task force would be criminals, those who have overstayed their visas, and other "security threats". One of Trump's most controversial proposals was his original proposal in 2015 for a "total and complete" temporary ban on foreign Muslims entering the United States. Trump later changed his position in 2016 by stating that the temporary ban would apply only to people originating from countries with a "proven history of terrorism against the United States or its allies", or countries "compromised by terrorism". Trump characterized this as an expansion, not rollback, of his original proposal.	Immigration Trump's immigration policies have been among his most highly discussed policies during the campaign. Some of his proposals have come under scrutiny by several experts on immigration who question the effectiveness and affordability of his plans. Trump vows to build a wall on the Mexico–United States border to keep out illegal immigrants, promising that Mexico will pay for it. He would also create a "deportation force" to deport around 11 million people illegally residing in the U.S. One of Trump's most controversial proposals was his original proposal in 2015 for a "total and complete" temporary ban on foreign Muslims entering the United States. Trump later changed his position in 2016 by stating that the temporary ban would apply only to people originating from countries with a "proven history of terrorism against the United States or its allies", or countries "compromised by terrorism". Trump characterized this as an expansion, not rollback, of his original proposal.
Climate change Trump rejects the scientific consensus on climate change, repeatedly saying that global warming is a "hoax". Trump has called the EPA a "disgrace" and has promised to cut its budget, and Bob Walker, a senior campaign adviser, has announced plans to eliminate funding for NASA's Earth Science program. Trump has pledged to eliminate the Clean Power Plan and withdraw from the Paris Climate Agreement, which calls for reductions in carbon emissions in more than 170 countries, saying that it treats the United States unfairly and gives favorable treatment to countries like China. However, after winning the presidency, Trump said he has an "open mind" towards the Paris agreement, while continuing to deny that man-made global warming is fact. Trump has appointed Myron Ebell, director of the Competitive Enterprise Institute advocacy group, as head of the future EPA transition team. Ebell has no scientific qualifications, and is well-known for denying that Earth is warming or that humans are responsible.	Energy and climate Trump's energy policy advocates domestic industrial support for both fossil and renewable energy sources in order to curb reliance on Middle-Eastern oil and possibly turn the USA into a net energy exporter. His appointed advisers favor a less regulated energy market and do not think the threat of climate change requires immediate action. Trump doesn't accept the scientific consensus on climate change. In 2012 he said that global warming was a hoax invented by the Chinese, but later said that he was joking. He has called the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) a "disgrace" and has promised to cut its budget, and Bob Walker, a senior campaign adviser, has announced plans to eliminate funding for NASA's Earth Science program. Trump has pledged to eliminate the Clean Power Plan and withdraw from the Paris Climate Agreement, which calls for reductions in carbon emissions in more than 170 countries. However, after winning the presidency, Trump admitted "some connectivity" between human activity and climate variability and said he has an "open mind" towards the Paris agreement. On December 5, 2016, Donald and Ivanka Trump invited prominent climate change activist Al Gore to a private meeting.
Education Trump has stated his support for school choice and local control for primary and secondary schools. He opposes the Common Core State Standards Initiative for primary and secondary schools, and has called Common Core "a disaster" that must be ended. He has stated he would abolish all or part of the Department of Education.	Education Trump has stated his support for school choice and local control for primary and secondary schools. He opposes the Common Core State Standards Initiative for primary and secondary schools, and has called Common Core "a disaster" that must be ended. He has stated he would abolish all or part of the Department of Education.
Foreign policy Trump has been described as non-interventionist and nationalist. Trump has repeatedly stated that he supports "America First" foreign policy, though he is not linked to the historical isolationist America First Party (1944) or the defunct paleoconservative America First Party (2002). He supports increasing United States military defense spending, but favors decreasing United States spending on NATO and in the Pacific region. He says America should look inward, stop "nation building", and re-orient its resources toward domestic needs. He questions whether he, as president, would automatically extend security guarantees to NATO members, and suggests that he might leave NATO unless changes are made to the alliance. Trump has called for Japan to pay for the costs of American troops stationed there and that it might need to develop nuclear weapons in order to protect itself from North Korea. In order to confront ISIS, Trump in 2015 called for seizing the oil in ISIS occupied areas, using U.S. air power and ground troops. In 2016, Trump advocated sending 20,000 to 30,000 U.S. troops to the region, a position he retracted. He has since argued that regional allies of the U.S., such as Saudi Arabia should provide troops in the fight. He also believes that oil fields in ISIS-controlled areas should be bombed. He supports the use of waterboarding, a form of torture, and has said he would "bring back a hell of a lot worse". Trump has also said he will dismantle the international nuclear agreement with Iran as president. Regarding the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, Trump has stated the importance of being a neutral party during potential negotiations, while also having stated that he is "a big fan of Israel." He supports Israeli settlement construction in the West Bank. During his 2016 Presidential campaign, Trump repeatedly said that he opposed the Iraq War even before it was launched, although his public position had been unclear at the time. In 2002, when asked whether he supported invading Iraq, Trump responded, "Yeah, I guess so" and added "I wish the first time it was done correctly" in reference to the Gulf War of 1990–1991. Shortly before the 2003 invasion, he said: "Well, [Bush's] either got to do something—or not do something, perhaps. […] And perhaps we should be waiting for the United Nations." Trump publicly referred to the war as a "mess" within a week after it began, and by 2004 he said he was opposed to it. Since 2004, he has repeatedly criticized the war, especially during the primary debates with Jeb Bush. Trump has at times during his presidential campaign stated that the Afghanistan War was a mistake, and at other times stated that it was necessary. He supports keeping a limited number of United States troops there. Trump was a strong supporter of the 2011 military intervention in Libya at the time. He has since then reversed his position several times, saying finally in June 2016 that he would have supported "surgical" bombing against Gaddafi. Trump would consider recognizing Crimea as Russian territory and lifting sanctions on Russia. He added that Russia could help the United States in fighting ISIS militants. In the same interview, Trump sarcastically stated that he hoped Russia would unearth Hillary Clinton's missing emails from her time as Secretary of State.	Foreign policy Trump has been described as non-interventionist and nationalist. He has repeatedly stated that he supports "America First" foreign policy by increasing military defense spending, but favors decreasing United States spending on NATO and in the Pacific region. In order to confront ISIS, Trump in 2015 called for seizing oil or bombing oil fields in ISIS occupied areas, using U.S. air power and ground troops. In 2016, Trump advocated sending 20,000 to 30,000 U.S. troops to the region, a position he retracted. He has since argued that regional allies of the U.S., such as Saudi Arabia should provide troops in the fight. Trump has also said he will dismantle the international nuclear agreement with Iran as president.
Social issues Trump describes himself as "pro-life" and generally opposes abortion with some exceptions: rape, incest, and circumstances endangering the health of the mother. The Susan B. Anthony List, an anti-abortion political advocacy group, praised Trump's list of potential Supreme Court nominees as "exceptionally strong", while NARAL Pro-Choice America called the candidates on the list "a woman's worst nightmare". Trump has stated that he supports "traditional marriage". He opposes the 2015 Obergefell v. Hodges Supreme Court ruling that legalized same-sex marriage nationwide and believes the decision should be left to individual states. Trump had stated that if he were elected, he would "strongly consider" appointing Supreme Court justices that would overturn the ruling. Trump supports a broad interpretation of the Second Amendment and says he is opposed to gun control in general, although his views have shifted over time. He supports fixing the federal background check system so that criminal and mental health records are always put into the system. Trump opposes legalizing recreational marijuana but supports legalizing medical marijuana. Trump favors capital punishment.	Social issues Trump describes himself as "pro-life" and generally opposes abortion with some exceptions: rape, incest, and circumstances endangering the health of the mother, but said he is committed to appointing justices who want to change the ruling in Roe v. Wade. He personally supports "traditional marriage" but considers the nationwide legality of same-sex marriage a "settled" issue. Trump supports a broad interpretation of the Second Amendment and says he is opposed to gun control in general, although his views have shifted over time. Trump opposes legalizing recreational marijuana but supports legalizing medical marijuana. He favors capital punishment, as well as the use of waterboarding, a form of torture.
Health care Trump favors repealing and replacing the Affordable Care Act ("Obamacare") with a different free-market plan that would allow health insurance to be sold across state lines, enable individuals to deduct health insurance premiums, expand health savings accounts, and give more control of Medicaid to the states. He has voiced support for a single-payer healthcare system in the past, but distanced himself from the idea during his 2016 campaign. In October 2016 he falsely said that he had said the ACA was a "disaster" since before it was passed by Congress. He said in June 2009 that he loved the idea, but questioned whether the country could afford it. Trump favors getting rid of backlogs and waitlists that are the focus of the Veterans Health Administration scandal, and believes that Veterans Affairs facilities need to be upgraded.	Health care Trump favors repealing and replacing the Affordable Care Act ("Obamacare") with a different free-market plan that would allow health insurance to be sold across state lines, enable individuals to deduct health insurance premiums, expand health savings accounts, and give more control of Medicaid to the states. He has voiced support for a single-payer healthcare system in the past, but distanced himself from the idea during his 2016 campaign.
Fringe theories According to political writer Steve Benen, unlike past political leaders, Trump has not kept fringe theories and their supporters at arm's length. Political writer Jack Shafer says that Trump may be a "fairly conventional American populist when it comes to his policy views", but he has a revolutionary ability to attract free media attention, sometimes by making outrageous comments. For many years, beginning in at least 2011, Trump publicly questioned President Obama's citizenship status; in 2016, during his presidential campaign, Trump stated that Obama was born in the U.S. In the past, he has also alluded to the conspiracy theory that President Obama is secretly a Muslim. Trump has discussed the unfounded notion that vaccine doses cause autism if administered too quickly in succession, and the conspiracy theory that former Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia might not have died of natural causes but was murdered. He repeated a National Enquirer allegation that Rafael Cruz, father of Ted Cruz, may have been involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy.	(Omit: these controversies are not policies or political positions. Moved Shafer's analysis to top section.)

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References

This is splendid work but it is an opinion piece. Compounding the difficulties is that Hillary had public positions and private positions, sometimes differing. Trump is likely to have the same. A campaign release is liable to be not exactly what the candidate thinks. This might be why presidential biographies tend not to have a political positions section. Usernamen1 (talk) 06:15, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Moving towards consensus

Does the lack of recent comments on the working draft as currently amended mean that we have consensus or that nobody likes it? I feel that we should go ahead and push it to the article, as the current contents are seriously outdated and bludgeoned with campaign-related cruft. Comments welcome. — JFG ^talk 23:11, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Personally, I have not reviewed that draft because I object to the entire idea of a such a wholesale replacement of material in this article, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Editors routinely spend weeks tweaking a couple of words. Dropping in such a mass of text is, in my opinion, not the way this article should be improved. I advocate incremental changes and therefore do not support this draft. Marteau (talk) 01:32, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

I think the proposed working draft removes far too much material. For example, Trump's entire position on the minimum wage is missing from the working draft. Surely that belongs in the "Economy" section. I sympathize with the idea that the "Fringe theories" are not really political positions, but they are very notable and need to be in the article. Even though it's awkward, I think "Fringe theories" fits best under "Political positions." -Thucydides411 (talk) 01:57, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

@Thucydides411: Feel free to add missing material by editing the working draft, that's why it's here. The goal is to build a broad summary, i.e. covering all major policy topics as tersely as possible. Details should go to Political positions of Donald Trump, which itself is already too long and should be split soon into three pages: Economic policy of Donald Trump, Domestic policy of Donald Trump and Foreign policy of Donald Trump. — JFG ^talk 02:48, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Strong oppose such a gutting of an article. The mass simultaneous replacement of many sections is simply not how Wikipedia is meant to work. Continuous incremental improvement, with individual discussions if necessary - not "Oh, we talked about all of these changes (in one talk page section) and nobody objected so we have consensus..." It's a recipe for disaster and accusations of ownership. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:56, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

@Bastun: It just seems like there is a serious double standard among many editors (myself included, as shown by my !vote in this RfC) to want to include controversial material about Trump much more than any other president article does. This extends to the policy positions as well. The working draft should be able to remove the undue weight placed on his policy positions while still summarizing almost everything the article currently does. A lot of the removed prose in the working draft are merely quotes and statements from Trump, which can be more briefly covered by short, concise sentences. JasperTECH (talk) 18:55, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

As has been pointed out to me on several occasions, every article should be judged on its own merits, not in comparison with other articles. Seriously, this is proposing cutting "Foreign policy" to six sentences; and "Economy" to a mere two! That's ridiculous! Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 21:02, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Bastun that the sections on Economy and Foreign policy have been shortened too much and lack substance. Feel free to expand them. — JFG ^talk 22:06, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

No, because your proposal to gut the article's multiple sections in one edit lacks consensus. That's not how Wikipedia articles are improved. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:17, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, there was reasonable consensus that this section should be summarized, then JasperTech made a proposal and I just formatted it for easier collective editing. The intent is to build a consensus version collectively, not to "impose some gutting". If this is not how Wikipedia articles are improved, then I don't know how. This approach sure looks better than starting multiple revert wars on each factoid… @Bastun, Marteau, Thucydides411, Gwillhickers, MrX, Sagittarian Milky Way, Objective3000, Madshurtie, and Volunteer Marek: Shall we work together? — JFG ^talk 22:31, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Although I generally prefer the concept of attacking one area at a time, in this case I support your approach as it attacks one general article problem. Gaining consensus may be difficult. Objective3000 (talk) 22:57, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Bastun, the problem with the idealistic approach of making one small edit at a time to slowly reduce the size of the section is that it would leave many intermediate versions of this highly-visible article with undue weight placed on the parts that had not been summarized yet. Hopefully by pinging interested editors we can achieve consensus on a version that will adequately summarize his policy positions from the get-go once it's implemented. Tomorrow I'll take a look at the foreign policy and economy sections and see if I can improve them, but maybe someone will beat me to it by then. JasperTECH (talk) 03:24, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

The "idealistic" approach, as you call it, is how Wikipedia is designed to work and how it actually works in practice. This article isn't an exception, and you're addressing a problem that doesn't exist. Small, multiple, incremental changes does work. What you're proposing is largely unworkable. I might agree with one change and disagree with another but we're talking multiple editors discussin multiple sections, simultaneously, on a rapidly changing talk page. Were we to go this route, then when someone imposes the "consensus" version, you'd find multiple discussions opening simultaneously as editors interested in one area find their area of interest has changed. Why do we need to reduce the sizes of sections? (WP:NOTPAPER). Is the "original" version of each section above still the current version, or have there been better edits made, since? Who would make the final decision to publish? Sorry, this is a terrible idea. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:08, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

@Bastun: Your response doesn't seem to address the concern of intermediate versions of the article with undue weight placed on them. The method of improving the article one edit at a time may achieve the same end result, but so does working on a draft version—the same approach was used when creating the article about the business career of Donald Trump. Having a draft version also has the benefit of avoiding edit wars and helping everyone work together with cooler heads. I believe the "original" version shown in the working draft is still almost identical to the one in the article, though feel free to update it if it's not.

As for ownership, that's easy to solve—the person who enacts the edit just needs to mention all the editors who contributed to the consensus version. Anyway, check out the economic section now and see if it looks more satisfactory. The foreign policy section can be similarly expanded. JasperTECH (talk) 00:34, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

What undue weight would that be? You've mentioned this strawman a couple of times. Editing normally - small, incremental changes - is not any more likely to lead to "undue weight" than a small cabal of editors introducing a single mass change to large portions of the article. Even if that were the case, it is easier to fix things that were introduced in small increments. Your proposed change culls an entire subsection, but that's not introducing bias by omission? (Also, please actually read WP:OWN, you missed my point entirely - any mass change is still subject to normal editing). Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:23, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Given some editors' preference for gradual changes, I have started by applying the proposed changes on the summary section, and I may edit other sections shortly while being careful not to "gut" them. Let's see how it goes… — JFG ^talk 21:29, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

ZOMG, NO! Look at all of that undue weight you left beh- oh, wait, no, you didn't... Good job. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 21:48, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

LOL — JFG ^talk 22:00, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

@Solntsa90: I took note of your revert and invite you to raise your objections to my edits here. As you see, discussion is ongoing around a working draft to trim and update this section, and your input is welcome. — JFG ^talk 22:00, 7 December 2016 (UTC)