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Genre Discussion

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There has been a lot of editing to the page due to disagreements on the band's genre. To solve this, lets have everyone present their reasoning/evidence on why they claim a certain way. If we can come to an agreement here, it'll be more likely to stay what we can agree on.

Please discuss below. I'll present information later. Sergecross73 msg me 20:57, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sergecross, I've presented evidence Dommin is "Goth Rock" as their own label classifies them as such. Also, if anyone wants to use Allmusic.com as a source, they also have Dommin's first subgenre as "Goth Rock", which I also cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Conception515 (talk • contribs) 01:16, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, present it here again. If you do, it'll be more likely to be enforced by myself and others. Unless someone else presents good evidence too. But there's no problem as presenting them as multiple genres, that's pretty typical in the band pages I've read/worked on. Sergecross73 msg me 02:26, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here's some sources I found:

To me, it seems like both Gothic Rock and Alternative Rock can be verified by legit sources. Anyone else? Sergecross73 msg me 16:38, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

-more evidence Dommin is "Gothic Rock":

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/newreleases/release.aspx?releaseID=403

http://store.roadrunnerrecords.com/artists/Dommin_2/DOMMIN-Love-Is-Gone-CD-Shirt-Bundle;jsessionid=0a010c441f431ba88d002c194d218267ec4fbda24294.e3eTaxaQbxmTe34Pa38Ta38Mbxz0

http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:avfqxqydldte (Goth Rock is the first listing under their style; their genre is "Pop/Rock", which all Rock bands fall under, including bands such as Slayer, I had to explain this to Peter Harrison) 

70.127.189.179 (talk) 22:16, 12 May 2010 (UTC)Conception515[reply]
It looks like there's plenty of proof to call them both alternative rock (Harrison even supports this) and gothic rock. I'll be sure to make those changes. Those 2 are certainly legit, but people can feel free to present other genre too. Sergecross73 msg me 16:54, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
None of these seem to be reliable sources. They seem to be more fan sites than anything. A quick listen confirms, to me, that they are pop/alternative and not at all Goth. Opening for bands like HIM and Lacuna Coil kind of disqualifies them from being considered Goth as well. Again, these "sources" seem anything but "legit".Vampider (talk) 21:47, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is that so? Really? Roadrunner's website, the record label the band is signed to, is a fansite, and/or not legit? Care to expand on that? Sergecross73 msg me 02:35, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is so. Really. You call the shots in terms of what your record label says your genre of music is. Bands like to capitalise on the general public's complete lack of understaning of what Goth is. Which is why bands like HIM, 69 Eyes, Evanescence and Marilyn Manson can go around calling themselves Goth when they're anything but. They use buzz words to market their music to an unwitting public. If kids think bands like Dommin are Goth they will then believe that by buying Dommin's music they will become Goths and be accepted into a culture that they don't understand. It's a simple marketing tactic. It's like when suburban white kids wanted to be black so they thought that by buying Vanilla Ice they were little rappers. If Dommin says they're Goth and Roadrunner says they're Goth confused children will buy Dommin's music because they think it will give them an identity and Dommin and Roadrunner make a bunch of money. If you call your band Goth and you play pop or metal or alternative, well, your band isn't Goth. Vampider (talk) 03:58, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's nice. However, on wikipedia, third parties like the band's record label and actual review sites like Popmatters and artistdirect are more qualified to make a call on it than you. Ironically, your viewpoint is more appropriate for a fansite or a blog. Sergecross73 msg me 11:39, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're so right. Third parties who have no vested interest in protecting the integrity of a genre and a website for self-representing artists are "more qualified" to be a source on wikipedia that it's editors. I guess we should just turn every page into an advertorial and prevent any and all changes by wikipedia editors. Let's just scrap the page on Gothic rock, while we're at it. We'll and copy and paste something, verbatim, from MTV then lock it to prevent any edits. Your logic is flawless.Vampider (talk) 17:34, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:VERIFY Sergecross73 msg me 18:37, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your opinion holds very little credibility with me, as HIM doesn't describe themself as Goth. In every interview I've ever read or watched with Ville Valo, he clearly states HIM falls outside of "genres" and even goes on to explain they created the term "Love Metal" to describe their sound. 69 Eyes describes themselves as "Goth and Roll" as they were more of a sleaze rock band in the beginning, and have gone back to that sound recently. However, they certainly had Goth influences on Blessed Be and Devils, if nothing else. What exactly is "Goth" to you? Which bands fit that profile?Conception515 (talk) 14:46, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're defending calling HIM and 69 Eyes goth, so your opinion holds no credibility at all. You're clearly uneducated on the matter and have no business discussing goth in the first place. Go back to hot topic poseur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.79.248.48 (talk) 15:35, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please, be constructive with your comments. Talk about the article, not the other users. Beyond that, all that really matters is that reliable sources (by wikipedia standards) call Dommin gothic rock. Individual's personal perception of goth in general is not relevant and doesn't belong here. Sergecross73 msg me 16:46, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Genre Dispute

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Dommin is commonly mistaken for being Gothic. Firstly, their musical style contains soft melodies and guitars with a lighter sound than that of Gothic Rock or Gothic Metal. Even though, in "My Heart, Your Hands", they have played the audio of Gothic church bells as part of the melody; that does not constitute a Gothic band.[1][2] Secondly, Dommin's lyrical style is very modern and simple; unlike lyrics in most Gothic Rock and Gothic Metal bands which have been known to be to the style of the antient Gothic era in Europe, known to be dark, morbid, haunting, deep, etc. Kristofer's style in vocals are more similar to that of most American rock bands than they are of most Gothic Rock or Gothic Metal bands.[3] Lastly, concerning appearance, they dress like Greasers; like from the famous American novel The Outsiders, written by S. E. Hinton, and the famous American musical Grease which became mainstream when it was made into a feature film in 1978.[4][5][6] Kristofer describes his band by saying, "We're not all that different."[7]

All of this certainly does not belong in the band's introduction, and it doesn't really belong in the article at all. It may be sourced, but it sounds like it belongs in a school essay on gothic music, not the article.

Arguments over genre are fairly common on wikipedia. Find a reliable source, (ie not from the band, or a fansite/forum) and add it to the article/info box. Keep the rationale to the discussion page like I have done.

Also, there's no reason why they can't be listed as both "gothic" and "pop" rock. Honestly that seems like the most accurrate description of them anyways... Sergecross73 msg me 17:08, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I this information has been added back in. I still think it either doesn't belong or needs to be heavily edited. It's worded poorly, like a high school essay, and the points aren't that strong. For instance, the fact that they dress like greasers doesn't prove that they do or don't play gothic rock. Sergecross73 msg me 13:19, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.silver-dragon-records.com/gothic_rock.htm
  2. ^ http://neosurrealismart.com/modern-art-prints/?artworks/haunting-goth-or-conception-of-gothic-music-lyrics.html
  3. ^ http://www.goth.net/goth.html
  4. ^ http://www.yourdictionary.com/gothic
  5. ^ http://www.stonegreasers.com/greaser/
  6. ^ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086066/
  7. ^ http://www.dommin.com/board_posts/dommin-official-biography

Band Quote

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Kristofer describes his band by saying, "We're not all that different."

Now, I'm not claiming this this isn't factual, I don't doubt he said it. But what's the point?

  1. What does that even mean? Who's not all that different? Who are they different from? The band? Individual members? The music?Fans? I feel like, if it's kept, it needs some explanation or lead in.
  2. Why is it noteworthy? Just about musician at least claims to be original. It's not like they're going to say "Yeah, we're pretty much 'AFI 2' or something. Sergecross73 msg me 17:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

-Harrison Peter K -- On every band page, there is always a quote by the band leader or a member of the band describing how they feel about their band. I don't see why not put this quote in if other pages have similar quotes by band leaders of their respective bands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harrison Peter K (talk • contribs) 13:56, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You didn't address any part of the 2 points I brought up above, and all you said is "other bands do it". Not only is that not a good reason, but I don't know if you mean band wikipedia pages or band official websites, but either way, I don't necessarily find it true, even if it was a good reason. If you can't explain what the quote means or why it's important, it doesn't belong in the article. Sergecross73 msg me 14:04, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- Harrison Peter K -- Ignoring the context of what I say is not going to change the fact that, on the Dommin website, Dommin described his band as "We're not all that different." That is why I cited their band website's bio because that is where he is quoted in saying that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harrison Peter K (talk • contribs) 14:25, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Again, if you can't even explain the quote, then it doesn't belong here. Just because the band says it, doesn't mean it is notable or belongs in the article. That quote contributes nothing to the article. I mean, what if the lead singer said "I like stuff. Stuff is good." Should that be added as well? Sergecross73 msg me 14:29, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

-Harrison Peter K -- But we're not talking about anything vague like "I like stuff. Stuff is good." We're talking about the band leader briefly describing his band. Much how other band leaders do the exact same. Check the source if you honestly don't believe it goes there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.11.228.23 (talk) 14:52, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Checking the source would be pointless. I don't doubt he said it. I doubt its importance. Something you're still unable to explain, other than "other bands do it", and even with that you haven't provided any examples of...Sergecross73 msg me 15:02, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Peter Harrison should be blocked from editing this page anymore, he clearly has some weird agenda and has relenetlessly tried to shoehorn irrelevant details into the article (such as the Greaser thing; not to mention, he's the only person I've ever heard describe them as such, and, anecdotally, in the two times I've met them, they certainly didn't dress like Greasers). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.127.189.179 (talk) 22:08, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lyrical Theme

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I don't think "like other American Emo bands" is appropriate for this section. Where have they been classified as Emo? There is no reference for that claim.Conception515 (talk) 12:19, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. It used to say "Rock" instead of "Emo", but someone keeps on changing it. I deleted out that intro altogether to discourage that. Sergecross73 msg me 13:27, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Where have they been classified as Emo?" Or Goth, for that matter. Find one real (truly Goth scene savvy) source that calls this band Goth and I'll eat one of my Corpus Delicti CDs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.180.55.54 (talk) 16:23, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They haven't been called emo, that was just some random user's opinion or vandalism that was removed long ago. As far as being called gothic rock, there's 3 reliable sources right in the article. Doesn't matter if they're "goth savy", this isn't "gothapedia" or something. It needs to be reliable to wikipedia, not the goth scene. Sergecross73 msg me 00:02, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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