Talk:Dodecapharmacum

"مرهم للرسول"

Have a source claiming this is called "مرهم للرسول" but can find no trace of this name in Google Books or on web. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:56, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

@In Ictu Oculi I am glad you have created the ‘Stub’ DodecaPharmacum at my request, thank you. I shall keep contributing to it. ------

(1) I request you------ If you may kindly change the main heading :from--- Dodecapharmacum -------To the the ‘ Apostles' Ointment (Apostolorum unguentum) I shall be grateful. The problem is, few people will be able to search “DodecaPharmacum” but searching for Apostles Ointment will be much easier and increase the Article viewership.

(2) The Apostles' Ointment is first mentioned in Qaraabadin-i-Rumi, (Roman Pharmacopoeia) compiled about the time of Jesus and translated in to Arabic in the reign of Maamun al-Rasheed (probably by Hunayn ibn Ishaq (809–873. (we have a copy obtained from Beirut).

(3) This contradicts The London encyclopaedia: or Universal dictionary of science, art, ... Volume 2 1829 - Page 507 . … that ‘ Apostles' Ointment (Apostolorum unguentum) was “invented” by Avicenna. Being translated in the reign of Mamun al Rashid into Arabic it became available to Avicenna. So it is much ancient. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 16:13, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

مرهم الرسل is a simple Arabic translation of Apostles Ointment. Put in Google Translate...--Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 16:23, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi DrAli. Thanks for confirming the Arabic is correct - I have embedded two Arabic footnotes. But I am not convinced it is Arabic from Avicenna's Qanun.

(1) The reason I created at Dodecapharmacum has to do with WP:NPOV, wanting a neutral "vanilla" title - also that this is apparently a Greek-Latin medicine, so a Greek-Latin name is a better starting point despite the later attribution to Avicenna, and the name "Apostles Ointment" is even later, not by Avicenna either - though it has flown back from Christian into Arabic texts. At least that's what it looks like. It could be moved to Apostles Ointment later, once there's some sourced understanding

(2) I see the quote from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's Jesus in India: Jesus' Deliverance from the Cross & Journey to India Page 66 "... page 497. o Tazkirah ul-ul-Albaab, by Sheikh Daud Al-Zareer Al-Antaaki, page 303. o Qaraabadin-i-Rumi, compiled about the time of Jesus and translated in the reign of Maamun al-Rasheed into Arabic" - but we need a more WP:RS source for this. Firstly we need to de-redlink those names and relate them to en.wp articles. When did Daud Al-Zareer Al-Antaaki write? 1700s? 1800s? - The second source, does the second source mean during the reign of Al-Ma'mun? ...that's just a starting point. The real problem is lack of evidence for this ointment being associated with the ability to cure the wounds of crucifixion in any source prior to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's claim of his own messiahship. We need academic sources regarding Islamic medicine.

(3) Yes, I know, that's why I put "attributed" in the lead rather than "invented". That's one problem with these sources. Basically anything prior 1980 is probably unreliable. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:41, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I added in reference to (2) above Yohanan Friedmann The Messianic Claim of Ghulam Ahmad in Toward the Millenium: Messianic Expectations from the Bible to Waco ed. Peter Schäfer, Mark R. Cohen Brill 1998 p299-310, this talks about this medicine in context of Ahmad's use of it to establish his own claims to be Mahdi/Christ/Krishna. We cannot use Ahmad's own source as it is self claiming. We still need actual Islamic medical sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:56, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot In Ictu Oculi, for the sustained interest in the topic. Jazakallah. I shall continue with the findings. Today I may get the Book "Roman Pharmacopoea" (Qura ba Din Rumi,the ancient SOURCE translated in 9th Century in the House of Wisdom by a Maamoon). ist exact name, title, ISBN number and what it actually says about the Ointment. It may settle certain issues. I hope it is a searchable article with the Key Words "apostles ointment" ? Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 05:39, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Your point that “Mirza Ghulam Ahmad ………mentioned this ointment in support of his own claims to be the Mahdi.[7] “ … is not correct. To be exact, he referred to the use of this Ointment to prove his point that Jesus DID not die upon the cross, he however, was seriously wounded and was treated by the famous Therapeut Nicodemus by applying 100 pounds of ointment to his body (John 19:39). Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 07:29, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

That's not my point, that's Yohanan Friedmann's point about Ahmad's use of marham i Isa. I'll add the actual words since there's a query. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:33, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Done, text from p306 of Friedmann inserted. We still need an actual pre-Ahmaddiya source for (i) the term marham i Isa or marham i rasul (ii) identification of this term with the 12-ingredient medicine of Avicenna. Note the French source in footnotes which says (quite logically) that "apostles" "Venus" are unlikely to be the names Avicenna himself used. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:43, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Mahmud Muhammad Ismail, Mukhatib of Khaqan

Dear In Ictu Oculi... will you go through these two books for the mention of this Ointment > TWO important links

• Antidotario Romano by Ippolito Ceccarelli, Pietro Castelli 1639
• Antidotarium Romanum: seu modus componendi medicamenta 1590

thank you. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 12:47, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi ! In Ictu Oculi, The two requirements you have desired (i) and (ii) are provided in the following source. Majmooa Baqai ,read the original Persian as follows:

محمود محمد اسماعیل نے لکھا ہے کہ:
‘‘مرہم الرسل کہ مسمیٰ است بمرہم سلیخہ و مرہم عیسیٰ و اجزائے ایں دواز دہ است کہ حواریین بجہتہ عیسیٰ علیٰ نبینا و علیہ السلام ترکیب کردہ اند۔’’ 

[I translate this: Mahmood Muhammad Ismail writes: The ‘Apostles Ointment’ which is also known by the name “Marham e Saleekha” and “Marham e Issa” and whose ingredients are twelve, has been composed as per the number of the disciples of Jesus (peace be upon him.’] Majmu'ah Al-Baqaa'i by Mahmud Muhammad Ismail, Mukhatib of Khaqan , known as father of Muhammad Baqaa Khan, Vol.11, page 497. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 15:58, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

The Above book (Majmu'ah Al-Baqaa'i by Mahmud Muhammad Ismail, Mukhatib of Khaqan) is printed in 1862, Delhi: Hindu Press (Persian). Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 16:17, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Some Other Interesting names for the “Ungentum Apostalorum” or Dodecapharnacum” 1) Venus Ointment (also Isis and Athena Ointment) Old Egyptian roots)[Hera Capadocia] 2) Emplastrum Apostolorum or Emplastrum Apostolicum . 3) Unguentum Christi 4) Christ's balm 5) Oil of God 6) Manus Christi 7) Emplastrum Manus Christi 8) Emplastrum Divinam 9) In Latin Pharmacopoea called : Gratia Dei 10) مرہم یدِ مسیح Unguentum Manus Christi Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 16:37, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I see this is per Jesus in India Page 66 "Majmu'ah Al-Baqaa'i by Mahmud Muhammad Ismail, Mukhatib of Khaqan, known as father of Muhammad Baqaa Khan, Vol.11, page 497. " Can you supply a date for the book, and a date of birth and date of death for this writer? In ictu oculi (talk) 17:12, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I have already supplied the DATE for the BOOK above ... " printed in 1862, Delhi: Hindu Press (Persian ". The author's Birth and Death dates not yet known to me. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 18:44, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but I mean the writing date. As it stands it is impossible to identify the author from the spelling used on Jesus in India Page 66. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:47, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Dear In Ictu Oculi, I have made some additions to the Article. I could not properly format it. Will you help me at that? What I need to provide as ref/footnotes to make it look nice and up to the mark? Be well. Thanks. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 13:57, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, the formatting isn't the problem the problem is the lack of sources. Sourcing requires actual sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:59, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh I see! It’s all in the Recycle Bin. I am really impressed and grateful at this high standard of strictness for accuracy and responsibility. That is great. Otherwise Wikipedia would also hurl all kind of abuses at people! I will try to support with actual and verifiable resources each for every proposition and claim, that was made in the article. But that will take months and years to grow the article… Be well and blessed. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 17:23, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

It's all there, nothing lost. But there must be sources. A real book for every comment. WP:PSTS limits the amount of usage of primary sources, but we can use some primary sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:09, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

OK. I realized that the first part of my Article, (Dodecapharmacum) I had written is in need of at least 50 actual book source references. When It is completed, I shall put it for review.... One by one the sources are coming... The Dawud Antaki one is NOW CLEAR.... His book is the one saying that "the Apostles Ointment as also called "Shalekha" Ointment (Shalekha=Apostle) ) in the Roman Pharmacopoeas" (Vol 1, page 256 of Tadhkirat uli al-albab wa-l-jami’li-lil-ajab al-ujjab. ( Antaki: Dawud al- Antaki,) Cairo, 1935. (Arab)) I can quote the Words in Arabic as well....

Hi, I have created a stub bio Dawud al-Antaki (Antioch d.1599) writer of Tadhkira - but cannot find any ref yet to such a quotation. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:59, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

The Reference to Book, quoted: Book available at http://www.arabicbookshop.net/main/details.asp?id=109-57 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drali1954 (talk • contribs) 10:48, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Please see: http://www.scribd.com/doc/64466100/Famous-Islamic-Physicians http://www.iiim.org/mscholar11.html ….Biographical notes on Dawud Al Antaki (1543-1599) Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 10:23, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, interesting. Any idea of the author or date of this html? We don't usually use html for history where print is available. It doesn't seem a reliable source - surprised to see it says Dawud al-Antaki converted to Islam, and was then charged with heresy? Cannot find this in other sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:36, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Apostle

[Meaning of Apostle in Jewish Encyclopedia: APOSTLE AND APOSTLESHIP – ...Apostle (Greek ἀπόστολοσ, from ἀποστήλλειν, "to send"), a person delegated for a certain purpose; the same as sheliaḦ or sheluaḦ in Hebrew, one invested with representative power. "Apostoloi ...all likelihood had received no other mission or Apostleship than that of working in the field of philanthropy among the Jewish community of Rome.The meaning of the term "Apostle," still used in its old ...( http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&keywords=Apostle&commit=search)] Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 07:28, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Dawud Al-Antaki (1543-1599) Antioch

DAWUD IBN LIMAR AL- ANTAKI - (1543-1599) Dawud AI-Antaki, considered by L. Leclerc to be the last representative of Arab Medicine. The Ottoman Empire had already enveloped most of the Arab countries (victory of Sultan Salim I over Qait-Bai, the Mamelouk of Egypt in 1516 and the conquest of Egypt in 1517). The period of Translation had begun with Prince Omeyyade Khaled lbn Yazid, grandson of Caliph Mu'awiyya lbn Ah Soufiane (661-680). The period of Decadence began with AI-Antaki, who died in 1590. Thus Arab Medicine had an important position for 8 centuries. It is absolutely essential to keep this in mind. Dawud was born in Antioch. He was blind and paraplegic and was nick-named AI-Basir (the non-seeing), as his paraplegia had improved. He studied Medicine and excelled. He travelled to Alep, Damascus and Cairo where h taught. He was particularly gifted in logic, philosophy, astronomy and medicine. He spoke Latin (?). At the end of his life, he was accused of heresy. He made a pilgrimage to Mecca where he died. He left us several books, including The Research of Diseases , The Poem of the Doctor , a treatise on baths, The Pleasure of Sight , etc... The most interesting and best known of his books is entitled The Memento , which contains 3 books, of which the last is the most important. It deals with the pharmacopoeia and contains more than 1712 names of drugs (the Canon contained less than 800). This is the most complete book after that of lbn Al Bitar. In this book, he described, for the first time, syphilis and its treatment with mercury. The first mention of coffee is also found in this book. Leclerc speaks of it in these terms : This book proves that the author was a very wise man, who was serious and conscientious . The book has been edited on several occasions. The picture shows Al Antaki and his disciples during a class in the great Omayade Mosque in Alep. Source: http://www.iiim.org/mscholar11.html Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 05:14, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Al- Antaki book usually mentioned ... Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's Jesus in India: Jesus' Deliverance from the Cross & Journey to India Page 66 "... page 497. o Tazkirah ul-ul-Albaab, by Sheikh Daud Al-Zareer Al-Antaaki" (Actual available Source: Antaki: Dawud al- Antaki, Tadhkirat uli al-albab wa-l-jami’li-lil-ajab al-ujjab. Cairo, 1935. (Arab)) تذكرة داود الأنطاكي

لـ الأنـطـاكـي ، داود بن عـمـر Tadhkirat Dawud al-Antaki al-musamma Tadhkirat uli al-albab … (3vols.in 1) by Anṭākī, Dāwūd ibn ‘Umar (Available) Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 05:18, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

@In Ictu Oculi... I quote the actual Arabic lines from Antaki Tadhkira: (مرھم ا لحوا ر یین) و یقا ل الرسل – و تر جمہ فی القرا با دین ا لرومی بمرھم سلیخا

تذكرة داود الأنطاكي لـ الأنـطـاكـي ، داود بن عـمـر Tadhkirat Dawud al-Antaki al-musamma Tadhkirat uli al-albab … (Vol 1, page 256) by Anṭākī, Dāwūd ibn ‘Umar [Translation: (Mar ham al Hawwarriyeen) also called "arrusul" (Apostles) . And in the Roman Pharmacopoeia it translated as "Mar ham e Shalekha" (Ointment of Shalekha)"(Ref Above) Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 12:15, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Dr Ali

I'm sorry I'm not familiar with ا لحوا ر یین, what does hawarriyeen mean?

And where is the source for in the Roman Pharmacopoeia it translated as "Mar ham e Shalekha" ? In ictu oculi (talk) 13:13, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

@In Ictu Oculi: Hawari (pl) Hawariyyeen = Disciples/Apostles. The word "Shalekha" is mostly understood to indicate 12, and is the Greek word Δώδεκα (12). Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 04:20, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

This source is probably tight enough to go in now. It appears to show a Christian Arab physician - David of Antioch who can read Latin introducing Theodoric's 1267 Latin name into later Arabic texts. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:29, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

"مرهم للرسول" (Apostles' Ointment) in ANTIDOTARIVM ROMANVM, SEV MODVS COMPONENDI Medicamenta

@In Ictu Oculi ... see please to confirm. Thanks. ANTIDOTARIVM ROMANVM, SEV MODVS COMPONENDI Medicamenta, (can be downloaded at: http://books.google.com.pk/books?id=Lzc6AAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false See "UNGUENTUM APOSTALORUM (full recipe) on Page93. (Please excuse spellings, Old Latin characters) Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 12:38, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I've added it - though to be honest I can't see the significance of a 1590 recipe. The earliest mention appears to be the Dominican priest Theodoric Borgognoni 220 years earlier, which I have also added. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:46, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for adding fresh findings to the Article. "Hawaari = Disciple = (in Christian palrlour "Apostle") . So the Muslim Physicians called it "Ointment of the Hawariyyen (Apostles), Arabic " marham ur Rusul ". And the mention of the Recipe is much Older than 13th Century. Avicenna (1037)another 200 years earlier to Theodoric. And we know it was NOT invented by Avicenna or the Arabs. It is much earlier...pre- Christian... (Just think over the term "Ointment of Venus".... we keep tracing its ancient origins. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 16:43, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi

I'm not actually following that. We don't have anything earlier than the following

1. Recipe = Avicenna (d.1037)
2. Name "Apostles" = Teodorico Borgognoni (1267)
3. Name "Marham i Isa" = Ghulam Ahmad (1899)

It's a bit unlikely that this had existed for 1000 years before Avicenna. But if there's a source fine. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:09, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

@ In Ictu Oculi: Hi, Well I have a Question: Considering the religious fervor and enthusiasm (being the times of 5th to 9th Crusades) imaging the mind-set with the thick clouds of enmity and hatred, for the “pagan Saracens ”, What could be the probable reasons that Theodoric Borgognoni, a Gospel preacher, a Dominican priest, and a Bishop ( ? FIRST occurrence of the term “Ointment of Apostles”) should pick a very humble, insignificant Recipe, one among the thousands, and raise it to the exalted status of “ Apostles' Ointment”  ? Even he is aware, the Recipe has a Pagan Connection due to its name being “the Ointment of Venus”? Why link it to the 12 Apostles, the holiest persons for him? [only because the Prescription has 12 ingredients,not a very cogent reason ? ) Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 05:01, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Well we'd need a source explaining why a Dominican priest would Christianize Avicenna's recipe. Do we have a source for what Avicenna himself called it? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:24, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

@ Hi In Ictu Oculi , Apostles' Ointment :

(1) We can trace the earliest up to Avicenna the Recipe (Ointment of Apostles) was not invented by Avicenna (d.1037). Galen (129-200 AD) has also mentioned it. [Galen, On the Methods of Medicine 6.6 (10. 454 K)].

(2) He could not call it “the Apostles Ointment” !! But a good Physician like Nicodemus would be aware of the Recipe as Galen was. He calls it ‘ISIS Ointment’ and Venus and Athena Ointment. Galen writes (in Methodus Medendi) that Heras of Cappadocia mentions it as a sacred ointment by priests at the temple of Hephaestus in Egypt. He names it Emplastum Isis. Sacribonius Largus (43 A.D.)and Asclepiades Pharmacon(97 A.D.) also mention it as unguentum Isis. We also find one detailed version of this ointment as Emplastrum ex dictamno.

(3) [Jutta Kollesch, Diethard Nicke,l Galen und das Hellenistische Erbe: Verhandlungen des IV. Internationalen ... 1989, p.23]

(4) [The Michigan Medical Codex on papyrus (fourth century A.D.) is almost entirely composed of medical recipes for plasters or poultices. It mentions Emplastrum Isis] Source: Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik, Bd. 70 (1987), pp. 73-103 Published by: Dr. Rudolf Habelt GmbH, Bonn (Germany) Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/20186694 . http://www.papirologia.unipr.it/studentiLM/Youtie5.ZPE70.pdf Please verify, the Recipe and the Ingredients ! Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 20:53, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid initial searching in Google Books fails to verify any of these 4 statements. (2) dictamnus is just a single plant. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:24, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Salmawaih Ibn Buan(d.839) translated Galen works...

Salmawaih Ibn Buan Christian (Nestorian) physician, who flourished under al-Ma'mun and al-Mu'tasim and became physician in ordinary to the latter. He died at the end of 839 or the beginning of 840. He helped Hunain to translate Galen's Methodus medendi and later he patronized Hunain's activity. He and Ibn Masawaih were scientific rivals. Salmanwaih realized the perniciousness of aphrodisiacs. Leclerc: Medecine arabe (vol. 1, ll8, 1876). M. Meyerhof: New Light on Hunain (Isis, VIII, 71S, 1926). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drali1954 (talk • contribs) 05:32, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Okay, thanks, any mention of a dodecapharmacum? In ictu oculi (talk) 06:04, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for adding the entry... will search more. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 13:29, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

The Ancient Origin of Dodecapharmacum ... and the 4th Century Papyrus

4th Century Papyrus ... Please read here http://www.papirologia.unipr.it/studentiLM/Youtie2.ZPE66.pdf Two Michigan medical papyri [1. P. Mich. Inv. 1455; 2. P. Mich. Inv. 488 = P. Coll. Youtie II 87]. Z Papyrologie Epigraphik (1977), PMID 11633638 - See more at: http://pubget.com/paper/11633638 /Two_Michigan_medical_papyri__1__P__Mich__Inv__1455__2__P__Mich__Inv__488___P__Coll__Youtie_II_87_#sthash.N8t9Ihqe.dpuf 12- INGREDIENTS: (also called the Isis Recipie of Epigones ) Iron Rust, Copper flakes, Corn Alum, Myrrh, Aloes, Wax, Vinegar, Rock Salt, Manna, copper, all – heal, frankincense (Page. 153) L. C. Youtie

---

Unguentum Apostalorum:74/26. Salicet (Ed. Pifteau) gives two formulas (pp. 171 and 504) for making an unguentum apostolorum. The ointment contained white wax : pine resin : aristolochia : incense : mastic : opoponax : myrrh : galbanum, litharge, etc. Guy de Chauliac (Ed. Nicaise, p. 617) gives a similar formula, and adds that Mesue named it Ceraseos, but Master Anserin de la Porte and Master Pierre de 1'Argentiere of Montpellier call it Gratia Dei, because it cures bad ulcers so wonderfully. Henri de Mondeville (Ed. Nicaise, p. 800) calls it the green ointment of the Twelve Apostles on account of its twelve chief ingredients, and states that some writers call it Unguentum Apostolicon, others Unguentum Veneris, or simply the Plaister. Book: http://archive.org/stream/treatisesoffistu00ardeuoft/treatisesoffistu00ardeuoft_djvu.txt Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 19:45, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I'm having difficulty getting this papyri pdf to display. It only has 10 pages. Which page says something relevant and what does it say? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:25, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Hello, They have published the parts as separate pdf pages. (10 pages here) In this extract, page 149 to 153 gives the Papyrus containing the Recipes . The actual is in Greek and then it is followed by translation. (Also by Foot notes) The FIVE different versions of the Recipe given by this Scribe of (Dodecapharmacum)have been COMPARED with having minor variations from Galen on Page 153 in the form of a Table. (also see Foot 87 which says this is "Isis" Ointment...). The Papyrologist has tried to COMPARE the variations of Recipe of the Greek Scribe of the Papyrus with the Recipes given by GALEN. Hence we know our Recipe was KNOWN to Galen; and Avicenna or the later physicians have learned from Galen's Methodus Medendi. I wonder if you can procure the actual published book from the University of Michigan (as referred on the Title page of the document ?) Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 03:48, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Dr Ali, this seems to be veering a little too much into WP:OR. I read classical Greek but I am not qualified to compare a Greek pharmalogical recipe with Avicenna's recipe (which we don't have) and draw any conclusion of whether a recipe of Galen and a recipe of Avicenna are related, and even if I did it wouldn't be usable in the article because it would be unpublished. At this point I would have thought getting the Avicenna recipe was a bigger priority. Incidentally the pdfs are still not loading. I wonder if the Greek fonts in the pdf and those on my PC are incompatible. But as I said, even if they do load, we still can't use them for the article. See also WP:SYNTHESIS. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:52, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Dear In Ictu Oculy, thank you for your appropriate comment. I agree . What I learn from these pages is the Papyrologist has very frequently compared those prescription s with SIMILAR recipes with those of Galen's. GALEN's Works appear like the Jungles of Amazon. When I locate the correct reference to this Recipe in Galen and Avicena I shall be more than happy. I know and read the reference in the Al-Qanoon of Avicenna but WP requires a better accessible SOURCE for Al-Qanoon as well. be well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drali1954 (talk • contribs) 16:02, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Is the Qanun online in Arabic? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:26, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

http://ddc.aub.edu.lb/projects/saab/avicenna/contents-eng.html (arabic alqanoon online) 182.185.111.164 (talk) 05:16, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Well goodness me, there it is at http://ddc.aub.edu.lb/projects/saab/avicenna/640/html/S2_240.html at head of page. Why is it under 553‎ ٤٤‎٢‎ when the French source says 533, a typo in the French presumably. The French is also wrong to say marham i rasul wasn't used by Avicenna himself, assuming these titles in the 1593 edition are accurate. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:47, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi In ictu oculi, In the Entry Heading “Marham ur Rusul”, Avicenna writes:[Translation] “and it is also called ‘shaleha’, meaning ‘Marham al hawwariyyen’ (Ointment of Hawariyyen = Apostles) , it is also known as ‘The Ointment of Venus’…”

What seems important, is that Avicenna has retained the Greek word ‘Shaleha’ [δώδεκα] meaning 12 as for the 12 Disciples/Apostles. He did not translate the Greek word, simply to indicate that originally the Recipe was of Greek Origin, and only lately adopted as the Apostles Ointment. Similarly he also mentions its ancient origin by telling us, it was known as “Ointment of Venus”. I wish if you could some portray this in the Article.

182.185.43.245 (talk) 19:31, 4 March 2013 (UTC) Today you and me are in a much better position and well equipped to correct this older generation . Be well and young and happy ! The article is growing well. With your personal interest . Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drali1954 (talk • contribs) 16:29, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Unguentum Apostalorum: was called ’Unguentum Ceraseos by Mesue (777-857 AD) ?

@ Hi In Ictu Oculi, I wonder if the actual source to Mesue "Grabadin" can be reached ? This will make us set the source to 'Pre-Avicenna' times. Mesue (777-857 AD).

Page74/Note26. Salicet (Ed. Pifteau) gives two formulas (pp. 171 and 504) for making an unguentum apostolorum. The ointment contained white wax : pine resin : aristolochia : incense : mastic : opoponax : myrrh : galbanum, litharge, etc. Guy de Chauliac (Ed. Nicaise, p. 617) gives a similar formula, and adds that Mesue named it Ceraseos, but Master Anserin de la Porte and Master Pierre de l'Argentière of Montpellier call it Gratia Dei, because it cures bad ulcers so wonderfully. Henri de Mondeville (Ed. Nicaise, p. 800) calls it the green ointment of the Twelve Apostles on account of its twelve chief ingredients, and states that some writers call it Unguentum Apostolicon, others Unguentum Veneris, or simply the Plaister. Treatises of Fistula ..., by John Arderne published by Kegan Paul , Trench Trubner and Company Ltd. London (1910)

http://archive.org/stream/treatisesoffistu00ardeuoft/treatisesoffistu00ardeuoft_djvu.txt Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 14:00, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

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Yuhanna ibn Masawaih (يوحنا بن ماسويه), also written Ibn Masawaih, Masawaiyh, and in Latin Mesue, Masuya, Mesue Major, Msuya, and Mesue the Elder was a Syriac physician. Mesue's major work "Grabadin Medicinarum Particularium" remained a basic Pharmacopoeia in Europe for centuries. By Mesue (777-857] A Medical History of Persia and the Eastern Caliphate From the Earliest Times Until the Year A.D. 1932 by Cyril Elgood, page page: 93 182.185.43.245 (talk) 19:52, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes okay. It wouldn't be surprising if Avicenna got his "twelve apostles" from Arab Christian medicine and Mesue rather than Galen - the name gives away Christian origin. But Guy de Chauliac is a bit late to be a source. We need an actual WP:PSTS source. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:18, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I believe Avicenna could have no direct access to the Greek and Latin works, for Galen's Recipes. But Yuhanna ibn Masawaih (777-852), the teacher of Hunain ibn Ishaq. Translated various Greek medical works into Syriac (WP). So if he translated “Greek medical works”, then what else if not Galen? The Recipe can be located in Galen’s Methods of Medicine 6.6 (10. 454 K), but I can not access this source. In fact our Dodecapharmacum is even older, than Galen as the “sacred” mythical terms Isis/Venus/Athena may denote.Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 05:08, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Will you please help locating this Ref On the Methods of Medicine 6.6 (10. 454 K) of Galen's Methodus Medendi? It contains the Recipe !! Here is a 1526 translation. But it must be some part of Galen works. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 05:15, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi .. I shall be away from my Computer for a week... Be well. Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 12:22, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I think it is semi-evident that Avicenna's "Ointment of the Apostles" comes from a Christian source, and Mesue is one of the possible sources. That is something it is worth looking for a WP:PSTS source. As for Galen I will take a look. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:00, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Helen King Health In Antiquity 2005 Page 115 "Galen also described the post-operative treatment and care of those who had undergone trepanation, questioning the ... most operations of this kind' (i.e. cranial trepanation; Galen, On the Method of Medicine 6.6 (10.454 K); Moraux 1985)." - is this where you got the reference? (Moraux is P. Moraux, Galien de Pergame. Souvenirs d'un médecin, éd. Belles Lettres, coll. « Études anciennes grecques, Paris, 1985) also Helen King p117 "They correspond closely to Galen's description of the appearance and function of the lenticular (On the Method of Medicine 6.6, 10.445 K). The texts reveal that the instrument was close to its pre-modern counterpart, having a vertical blade" In ictu oculi (talk) 04:05, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I have looked at 6.6 found on page 445K (original Galen edition page number) of Volume II of the Loeb parallel-text Greek-English edition (Loeb Vol.II page 214 in Greek, page 215 facing in English). There is nothing here regarding any recipe for ointment but only what Helen King in Health In Antiquity describes. You sent me on a fishing trip my friend. No problem, because the previous fishing trip caught something. I understand the wish to find something in Galen which supports Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's 1899 claims that there was an ointment in Jesus' day which could heal crucifixion, but Galen 6.6 isn't it. Also at some point I think we need to reflect in the article what is found already in sources, that the properties of the medieval "Apostles Ointment" from Avicenna (assuming the Rome edition of 1593 accurately reflects Avicenna's titling and hasn't Christianized it) is largely quackery, like most medieval medicine. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:26, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Dear friend, I am so obliged for your great “ Fishing Trips” . Galen advises on Page 37-38 same book as you referred to the treatment of bleeding wounds. He suggest a treatment: Do you see any similarity to the centuries later classified and systematized Recipe as Dodecapharmacum? But as yet I am searching for a Recipe wherein Galen has given the Exact Physical Quantities of these ingredients. Be well and blessed. 175.110.136.145 (talk) 08:03, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi, no I'm afraid I don't see any similarity, and even if I did it would be WP:OR. We really need WP:PSTS here - which means what modern scholars say, not doing archaeology in original Greek texts (much as I find that entertaining). In ictu oculi (talk) 09:38, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

As your view that the ointment might be a Middle Ages Quackery, I will rather differ slightly. In fact Quackery is a fraudulent pretension of the Medical skills and if we stick to that definition these Fathers of Medical Sciences, sincerely believed what they had known through the accumulated experiences of the past generation of Medics, be they Egyptians/Greek/Christian/Arabic. Albeit, the truth that most of these Recipes (in today’s parlour) could be deemed hardly any better than ‘placebos’. So was the Apostles Ointment, I do not believe as they did that these ingredients had magical powers; I am only interested in the historicity of the Recipe. I am sure it has been mentioned by Galen and all other old Physicians. The Medical sciences have come down the latter, from the Egyptians to the Greek, and from there through the Arabs to the modern West (again the Pendulum has gone to the West). Every people have put in their own contributions. 175.110.136.145 (talk) 09:53, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi In Ictu Oculi, “Please do the “LAST FISHING TRIP” and catch some new fish ! I have located the Recipe in Galen.

Galen XIII 492,7 ,13; 616 ; (Isis Recipe) Galen XIII 494, (the Athena Recipe) Galen XIX 752 Quantities in Drams of Ingredients in Galen (as referred above) Ingredients: Iron rust, Copper Flakes, Corn Alum , Myrrh, Aloes, Wax, Vinegar, Rock Salt, Manna, Copper , All-Heal, Frankincense. ” :SOURCE: The Michigan Medical Codex: P. Mich. Inv. 21 (Continued) www.papirologia.unipr.it/studentiLM/Youtie2.ZPE66.pdfFile Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View by LC Youtie Medical. Codex. 151 frequently found in the medical writers,. e.g.. Gal. XIII 270,3; ... i, xpWi-Eact: Galen usually employs the singular i, xP651icm,. e.g.. XIII. 489, .... XIII. 492,13;. 616;. XIX. 752. Gal. (4) and (5) have two additional ingredients, ... Dr Ali 175.110.136.145 (talk) 12:21, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi, well perhaps I was unfair, you're right quackery doesn't apply to any of the doctors bluelinked in this article, I agree with you. However I think Louis Robert Effler's footnote deserves to stay in the article as a reminder that there's an element of religious superstition in the name "Apostles Ointment".

Okay armed with these page numbers Galen XIII 492,7 ,13; 616 ; (Isis Recipe) Galen XIII 494, (the Athena Recipe) Galen XIX 752 I am happy to go fishing again. But, after catching a WP:primary source fish it must still be cooked with WP:secondary source to be palatable and enter the article. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:22, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry I think the trail stops here. I couldn't access those three pages. And there's no reliable source explaining the origin of Avicenna's formula. "of Venus"/"of Isis" refers it seems to dozens of remedies, as you'd expect. The earliest linking of apostles to Venus/Isis found is Jehan Yperman. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:58, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

please read SECONDARY SOURCE: The Michigan Medical Codex : P. Mich. Inv. by Prof Emeritus L. C . Youtie. Bd. (1986) pp: 149-153 see our Recipe of 12 ingredients in Galen's work. Now this a modern published Secondary Source DR ALI — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drali1954 (talk • contribs) 10:12, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi. p149-153 which page exactly? Can you copy out the exact quotation in " " marks please. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:31, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

the book referred to can cited online. at JSTOR.ORG, please get register ed and read the quoted pages. on page 153 the 12 famous ingredients used by Galen in 5 different rations have been shown in the form of a table. but you may read pp151 -153 and foot note 87 as well. However i must say i love your cautious scepticism. http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/20186530?uid=3738832&uid=2134&uid=368829701&uid=2&uid=70&uid=3&uid=60&uid=368829691&purchase-type=article&accessType=none&sid=21101797151291&showMyJstorPss=false&seq=5&showAccess=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drali1954 (talk • contribs) 21:21, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I see on p.149 that this papyrus is a PLASTER OF HYGIENUS, then p.153 a table showing 5 recipes with 8-13 ingredients. No mention of the significance of 12. What relevance does it have to Avicenna's recipe? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:24, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

These are the SAME ingredients only later assuming various names. isis/venus/ were the old names, apostle ointment etc were the later terms. the Recipe IS THE SAME. please also read an extract i had quoted early, guy de salet etc telling us the varius ALTERNATE NAMES. be well and blessed.drali Drali1954 (talk • contribs) 02:33, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi. The problem is WP:SYNTHESIS. (1) unless we have a source saying e.g. "Guglielmo da Saliceto identified Avicenna's recipe as deriving from Galen" we can't put it in the article. (2) L. C. Youtie doesn't connect this recipe with Isis/Venus, so we can't connect this recipe with Venus. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:52, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

@In Ictu Oculi you wrote: “ (2) L. C. Youtie doesn't connect this recipe with Isis/Venus, so we can't connect this recipe with Venus” Hi friend, I know it may not yet be “ripe enough” to find space on Wikipedia, but the point that the recipe has been confirmed from the ancient sources (Primary ) and discussed by later scholars (Secondary) and that the Ingredients are the SAME. You wrote L.C.Youtie has not called it Isis, I quote her words:

(1) Please read Para 11-15 on page 151 . by Louise Canberg Youtie (1909 – 18 February 2004. She writes : ‘…The ingredients of this recipe are found, with slight variations and additions, among Galen’s [greek words !], “yellow-green plasters for leichen-like skin eruptions….referred to as Gal. (1) and Gal. (2) [in the Table]…..Gal (3) and …. Gal. (4); and from the works of Heras, XIII 775,6, that of Epigones, sometimes called “the Isis” = Gal. (5). Cf. the Table of Ingredients and Amounts at the end of the commentary (see footnote 87)

(2) And please also read (footnote 87) on page 151 of the same reference. Prof. L. C. Youtie writes: “ (87) Omitted from the Table are Gal. XIII 492,7 and Paul. VII 17.339, both duplicates of the Isis recipe of Epigones. They differ from Gal (5) only in the amount of the resin…..In Gal. XIII 494 the Athena recipe calls for 250 dr. of wax and 300 dr. of resin, plus the ingredients of our text and several more in addition.’

I wish Prof L. C. Youtie were living, we would settle the issue , and ask her whether this was the same Recipe of 12 Ingredients, the Isis, the Athena, which Avicenna calls “the Venus” , and “Apostles Ointment”, some calling it “Gratia Die” … and so many names..

(3) In His “Treatises of Fistula ..., by John Arderne published by Kegan Paul , Trench Trubner and Company Ltd. London (1910)” Ardenrne, writes : Page74/Note26. Salicet (Ed. Pifteau) gives two formulas (pp. 171 and 504) for making an unguentum apostolorum. The ointment contained white wax : pine resin : aristolochia : incense : mastic : opoponax : myrrh : galbanum, litharge, etc. Guy de Chauliac (Ed. Nicaise, p. 617) gives a similar formula, and adds that Mesue named it Ceraseos, but Master Anserin de la Porte and Master Pierre de l'Argentière of Montpellier call it Gratia Dei, because it cures bad ulcers so wonderfully. Henri de Mondeville (Ed. Nicaise, p. 800) calls it the green ointment of the Twelve Apostles on account of its twelve chief ingredients, and states that some writers call it Unguentum Apostolicon, others Unguentum Veneris, or simply the Plaister. Treatises of Fistula ..., by John Arderne published by Kegan Paul , Trench Trubner and Company Ltd. London (1910)

http://archive.org/stream/treatisesoffistu00ardeuoft/treatisesoffistu00ardeuoft_djvu.txt Drali1954 (talk) 10:27, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Dr Ali, thanks for the kitten

(1) Isis of Epigones

(2) Isis of Epigones. They differ from the Athena recipe

(3) Gratia Dei, Twelve Apostles

I see how (1) and (2) are connected. But how is (3) connected. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:58, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Why did they call it Isis, Athena and Venus? it appears the recipe had a magical and sacramental role in the ancient myths of Isis, Athena and Venus goddesses? The rites of anointing the kings ... the name Isis may be associated due to the "healing" powers of Isis. JC being a "healing god" as we gather from the New Testament, when died on the cross. was "resurrected" with the help of Isis ointment / anointed ? it seems with the passing of the age of magic animism and the ushering in of scientific approach, such ancient mythical recipes were codified by people like Galen Andromadus and Celcus etc. as pharmacological recipes ?Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 17:36, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I imagine that the Greeks named the Isis recipe after Isis and the Athena recipe after Athena because they believed in those gods. Likewise medieval Christians and Muslims names all kinds of medicines after saints and angels. In any case there is no tradition of any administering of medicine to Jesus until 1899. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:58, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi friend. i had planned to take this question at a later stage, however, we can start working on it. "no traditions of administering of medicine to Jesus until 1899".Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 19:50, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Er, no Dr Ali please let's not go there. This article is about Avicenna's dodecapharmacum. At the moment that is where the article's sources have stopped. Where the sources stop, discussion stops. Unless there's a substantial new WP:IRS source that specifically says something about the dodecapharmacum before Avicenna I think we have reached the end of this article. Anything more is WP:OR. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:44, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

hi, i see your point. be well .Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 03:59, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Which is why it should not go in the article. I've also reverted the page move, for the reason give earlier. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:35, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Dear In Ictu Oculi, your editing (undoing) the Prof Youtie work is unjustified, you failed to understand that research.... be well. No problem it is OK.Dr Muhammad Ali (talk) 03:35, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that wasn't her work, it was WP:SYNTHESIS as discussed above. But you can ask on Talk:Louise Youtie, there's an editor there very familiar with Dr Youtie's work. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:46, 25 March 2013 (UTC)