Talk:Doba (historical region)

Doba and Dobe'a

The country of Doba is the land of the Dobe'a ethnic group which was situated in Northern Ethiopia not Central Ethiopia.

Doba is the Latin/European transliteration of the Dobe'a. Replayerr (talk) 16:50, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Ok if you say so. Magherbin (talk) 17:14, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I am not trying to sound rude here. However I was shocked that Dobe'a were apart of Ifat when they were some Nilotic outlier similar to the Kunama who were supposedly pagans too. I've read into some books and that the Dobe'a were recorded in the 1800s by Henry Salt. So where do you put their extinction? Replayerr (talk) 17:34, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I suggest you read the references in the article, there appears to be a Nilotic Dobe'a Animists and Cushitic Doba Muslims, its possible the two have been conflated in references. Magherbin (talk) 17:54, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Which one is related to the Wali Asma dynasty? I thought they were Semitic? Replayerr (talk) 20:01, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I still haven't received a response on this.

If we assume the Walashma/Wali Asma to be of Semitic origin presumably from Arabs or Ethio-Semites. How would they be descendants of Cushitic Doba or Nilotic Dobe'a?

From sources such as Pankhurst and others state, the inhabitants of "Doba" were black(Nilotic) and were animist before being forcibly converted to Christianity by Baede Maryam.

Doba is the Latin/European transliteration of the Dobe'a(You can read the works dating back to the Portuguese Jesuits or medieval maps and geography books). There is no "conflation", they are the same people.

Names such as:

- The Country of Dobas

- Regno Di Dobas Replayerr (talk) 16:29, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Doba were likely related with Saho people, their territory in ancient times was within Ifat as the Argobba call them their ancestors. Portuguese Francisco Álvares states Doba were Moors see p.80 [1]. It seems the animist claim is coming from Pankhurst which is suspect, he is taking British sources that talk about the "negro population" like the bit you just added by Salt, dont think they're the doba of this article. There is a Shanqella people called Dubani of the British sources and historical Doba mentioned in Abyssinian records seem to be different hence like I said there might be a conflation. [2]. Hassan states the Doba were ethnically cleansed by the Abyssinians while others didnt survive the Oromo invasions, some surviving members were found in Tigray though. Doba were likely Cushitic nomads who spoke a semitic language see this source [3]. So the question is why would Portuguese explorers in the 16th century call them Muslims while British explorers in the 19th century do not? Dubani also sounds awfully different from Doba, mind you there is a 300 year gap, dozens of groups appear to disappear during this period. Here is Fesseha Berhe on Friedrich Gerhard Rohlfs observation "that the area he called ‘Doba or Doba May or Mechan’ which includes Ḥäšängä was a Muslim territory. He tells us that the Muslims had similar features to Christian neighbours: ‘They [the Muslims] differed in nothing from their neighbours [the Christian population], neither in shape, colour of skin nor dress or language, but they didn’t wear blue ribbons around their necks. This was the only sign in this area that you are a Christian’" The text further states that they didnt have a language of their own and spoke Tigrayan or Oromo, not surpirsed about this as this is the 19th century and they lost their state. see p.133 [4]. I point this out because if thier features were "Negro" would they have not looked like something different from their Abyssinian neighbor population? Magherbin (talk) 20:15, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

He visited the exact same spot and gave the exact same description assigned to the inhabitants after he had left Wojjerat. He also stated that the people of Wojjerat are "celebrated" of their historic victory over the Doba after seizing Lake Ashange(Baede Maryam's subjugation). The Doba which he describes as a frontier tribe in that area.[5]https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/A_Voyage_to_Abyssinia_and_Travels_Into_t/zsdOAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0 (Page 489)

There may have been some Islamic relations with the Doba but according to Scottish explorer James Bruce in the 18th century, The Doba country was chiefly inhabited by pagans but some had converted to Islam while the rest sticked by their ancient superstitions.[6]https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Travels_to_Discover_the_Source_of_the_Ni/AzIOAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1 (Page 5).

It also seems like you have the Dubena and Doba conflated as the same. James Bruce had already the difference.

"These black tribes inhabit a larger space of ground than all of Abyssinia and Nubia together....

to the north of Abyssinia they are mixed with the Arabs, Beja and Balaw; in which quarter they are called Dubena. The same race seems to exist in the ridge of mountains to the east of Tigray, under the name of Doba. Thus the Dubena and Dobe'a are not the same.

You are also including a map which emphasized this geographical distribution which Sidney Hall may have gained from Henry Salt's earlier 1814 map where he labels them again as "negroes".[7]https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/52083/map-of-abyssinia-and-the-adjacent-districts-laid-down-partly-salt Replayerr (talk) 20:57, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Doba were the core population of Ifat region see Encyclopaedia Aethiopica's entry [8], if you're adamant that they are Nilotic we can add that in here but they were representatives of the Walasma dynasty regardless. I'm not including any bits on what their genetic identity is per say hence the discussion is pointless. You're free to add whichever theories on the article provided its referenced. Based on my research the Doba were the Argobba or their ancestors, they spoke a semitic language and are considered a highland population see [9]. Magherbin (talk) 01:16, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Doba Towns and the Harla

@Magherbin You seem to have conflated Doba, Oromia with the historical region of Doba.

Location: 9.285343707028263, 41.09196528644246

This is concerning the statement which you included this article "Contemporary archaeologists discovered several ruins were found in Doba towns of Kubi, Addas, Mito, Djugola and Abadir dating back to the eighth century which are linked to the Harla people." where the citations are unrelated with the people of Doba(Dobe'a) but of a town/woreda with a similar name. I will remove it now. Replayerr (talk) 13:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Oromia is a modern state that likely occupies modern day Doba. Provide evidence this Doba is different from the historical doba. You've added a statement that Doba also refers to a people and not just a region see [10] hence strengthening the argument that this statement is viable, thanks for that. Do not remove content from pages that are cited, thats not what I meant when I said you can add content on the page. The Argobba Doba's have settled in Harar region this is a historical fact hence not surprising that they have ruins there. Whats with the edit summary stating Doba were only nomads and not settlers? Have you skipped my whole argument here? I specifically stated they're linked to the Walasma dynasty which ruled Ifat and Adal states, these were not nomads in control, they were only "mostly" nomadic but a few were settlers especially those related to Walasma. I am still in favor of the Walasma argument as you're just ignoring the references i've provided hence it stays do not try and push your view onto the article. Include your argument but dont remove the other point of view. Magherbin (talk) 18:29, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Well in a hypocritical fashion, you also added a statement that Doba refers to a people and not just a region. I am only adding on differing views from your original statement.

In the statement "Historian Fesseha Berhe associates Doba with the Saho people.", the cited reference declares that "Fesseha Berhe forthcoming) proposes that the Dobʿa, were part of the larger Saho group" rather than the region. Therefore I added varying opinions on their origin as you aformentioned.

Secondly, you are the one trying to push a view where two places with similar names and create some sort of Harla link. A town called 'Doba' is not definitive evidence that an "isolated group" of people once occupied unless you have a source that states this. Why would there be two enclaves which share the same inhabitants and separated along a far distance?

You can include the "Doba, Oromia" archeological discoveries in that specific article instead of here because as far as I can see, they are unrelated. Also don't put words into my mouth, I have read these sources and they are insufficient. Replayerr (talk) 19:02, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Are you insinuating i'm making up the Harla connection? In one instance you call them nomads which are known to travel far distance and in another you state they have no relations to the Harla people because they're confined to your definition of the doba territory which isnt even substantiated properly. The Doba were living in the Chercher province here is a UNESCO published source that states this "Until they were pushed by the Galla up to the highlands of Wejerat and Enda Mekoni south of Enderta the Tigrinha speaking Doba occupied the plains of Chercher and Raya - Azebo to the east . Some of the Doba were pastoralists" see p.274 [11]. Magherbin (talk) 19:21, 6 July 2023 (UTC)