Talk:Dimitri Simes

Felshtinsky, Maria Butina, & "Dimitri Simes fled to Moscow" for "Big Game"

In September 2018, historian Yuri Felshtinsky published an investigation where Dimitri Simes was described as one of handlers of Maria Butina who was arrested in the USA as a Russian "foreign agent". After the publication Dimitri Simes fled to Moscow and became a moderator of a political propaganda program Большая игра ("Big Game") (named after "The Great Game") on Channel One Russia, together with Vyacheslav Nikonov.

The above was deleted with the uncreative ES of "removed fake news". I not saying wording can't/shouldn't be adjusted, but the ES was meaningless. X1\ (talk) 01:32, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

@Tv503: [1] @My very best wishes: [2] [3] care to defend your contributions? X1\ (talk) 21:21, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

@X1. Thank you. Yes, sure. If you think the summary/text should be modified, please do. I am sure it can be improved. I am not interested in this subject, but simply looking at the sources, the first of them tells: "He was a member of the district Komsomol bureau and participated in the crackdown of the unofficial art exhibits in Moscow."... "His departure [from the USSR] was sanctioned by Evgeny Primakov, a long-time KGB official and a future Head of the Foreign Intelligence Service. The fact that during those years Simis was supervised by Primakov is known from the interview given some later by Simis himself: "I spent the first few years of my professional career at the Institute of World Economy and International Relations, working for Evgeny Maksimovich Primakov." An FBI approached him during his application for citizenship and said: "This folder contains written statements of people alleging that you are a KGB agent...". He then advised president Nixon on the matters related to the USSR. "the CNI headed by him became the center of pro-Kremlin propaganda at the heart of the United States – in Washington, D.C." He then rabidly supported Putin and his policies, he helped a lot to Butina, and so on and so on. Finally, it tells: All of the Kremlin guys were sent to Simes. He was not only spying but brainwashing the Washington elite" My very best wishes (talk) 00:42, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

P.S. This is not just a single publication by Felshtinsky. There are also Piontkovsky and others. My very best wishes (talk) 23:36, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

In September 2018, historian Yuri Felshtinsky published an investigation about the involvement of Simes in Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections, including his help to Maria Butina. After the publication Simes went to Moscow and became a moderator of the political program Большая игра ("Big Game") on Channel One Russia, together with Vyacheslav Nikonov.

Above was the latest stable version.

Simes is a remote moderator of the political program Большая игра ("Big Game") on Channel One Russia, together with Vyacheslav Nikonov.

The above is a suggested change. @Tv503:, @My very best wishes: BRD? X1\ (talk) 20:36, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

References

Sources

Reply to this. I think that ref is really on the topic and qualify as WP:RS. It makes a reference to this and another publication by Yuri Felshtinsky who is a well known and reputable historian (see here). Two last refs were publications by a news agency run by this man. It is actually famous and highly reputable in the Russian and Ukrainian-speaking world. All of them are definitely RS. Saying that, I think it would be safer to provide an explicit attribution, to Felshtinsky, Andrei Piontkovsky, etc., whoever was the author. That is exactly what I did. Well, nothing hurts to include a few more sources. I can do it later. My very best wishes (talk) 20:57, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

So, just to name a few: [4][5],[6],[7],[8]. I think some of these sources are possibly less reliable than two articles by professional historian Felshtinsky, but they tell basically the same story. None of them contradicts the articles by Felshtinsky. My very best wishes (talk) 22:34, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

That one and that one tell the same. Anders Åslund tells the same [9]. My very best wishes (talk) 22:52, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

So, I believe that a publication (actually two of them) by Yuri Felshtinsky on a news site run by Dmitry Gordon is an RS, is not it? Obviously, providing an attribution is fine. My very best wishes (talk) 00:07, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

more

The article must be true to the facts. The Felshtinsky article claims that Simes "fled" to Russia in September 2018, but this is demonstrably false. He has since that date been in Washington repeatedly (and is in Washington as I type), which he would not be if he had in fact fled the country as Felshtinsky falsely alleges. Broadcasts of The Great Game prove this to be true, as he is shown co-moderating the show from Washington DC on numerous occasions, including on January 28 2019 https://www.1tv.ru/shows/big-game. Therefore, the allegation that he "fled" is false. Continuing to include this material in the face of proof that the allegation is false can only be regarded as malicious and libelous.

The characterization of The Great Game as "propaganda" is also demonstrably false. Anyone who watches the show can see that it includes numerous Americans, including former US government officials, who speak live without censoring, and they can and do frequently criticize Russia and Russian policy. See former US Ambassador to Ukraine John Herbst's appearance on the show on February 25 2019 (https://www.1tv.ru/shows/big-game) if there are any doubts on this score. Providing a forum for American experts to speak on Russian national television directly to Russian audiences without censorship is hardly propaganda. Continuing to characterize the show as "propaganda" can only be regarded as willful disregard of these facts.

The allegation that Simes is Maria Butina's "handler" is also demonstrably false. Spies have handlers, but Butina is not charged with being a spy, but rather with being an unregistered agent of a foreign government. There is an enormous difference. If Butina had in fact "named" Simes as her American "handler," as alleged, she would have been charged with espionage. See James Bamford's expose in the New Republic for background on this: https://newrepublic.com/article/153036/maria-butina-profile-wasnt-russian-spy

The Felshtinsky article, by the way, is chock full of libelous and false allegations, including that Henry Kissinger is a paid Kremlin agent. Citing it is a discredit to Wikipedia, which I assume aspires to be something more than a purveyor of outlandish conspiracy theories and ad hominem attacks.

I expect this to be the end of this edit war. If it continues, I can only conclude that the Wikipedia editors have libelous intent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Milbee19 (talk • contribs) 02:37, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

This is very simple. You are trying to make your personal investigation to determine if the claims by the cited RS were true. This is known as WP:OR. We do not do that here. Instead, we are simply doing a reference work, meaning we summarize what reliable sources tell on the subject. If you do not like what several sources, including the publication by F. tell, please bring other WP:RS that tell something different. So far you brought nothing. The link to https://www.1tv.ru/shows/big-game is not a valid reference. The article in New Republic tells nothing about Simes. My very best wishes (talk) 03:41, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I double checked the source, and it tells: "The second handler named by Butina was Dimitri Simes. No one may have paid attention to Simes’s involvement in organizing Trump’s public appearance at the Mayflower Hotel on April 27, 2016,...", and so on. My very best wishes (talk) 03:50, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

It is very simple indeed. You insist on referring to sources that are entirely unreliable as a source of facts. I have shown that those alleged facts are not factual. Your persistence in including them is a clear sign of malicious disregard of the truth. If it is Wikipedia's practice to cite any source of any quality in the wild world of online allegations irrespective of a source's fidelity to fact, then it is of highly dubious value to those seeking to discover objective truth. It is of great utility to those seeking to defame, deceive, and distort however. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Milbee19 (talk • contribs) 13:41, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

You did not bring any sources to support your assertions on the subject of this page or about this TV program. You are using a straw man argument to discredit a source: it does not tell that "Henry Kissinger is a paid Kremlin agent". The publication by Felshtinsky is an RS - based on the place of the publication and based on the author. Other RS tell the same. I do agree this page needs to be improved and expanded, but this should be done based on WP:RS. My very best wishes (talk) 15:37, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

He does indirectly accuse Kissinger of being a Russian agent of some sort "Kremlin created a ‘Council of the Wise’ of sorts, headed by Kissinger and Primakov, the financing for which was supplied by the Russian oligarchs. It was a purportedly interdependent Russian-American body. And they were like scientists. And Alexei Mordashov or someone like that pays them $5 million. They receive Russian, not American, funding" I don't think the source qualifies as an RS. I propose that we eliminate the section referring to Butina, as Felshtinsky article does not cite a source as to where Butina stated that Simes was her handler and no mainstream news source refers to him as such. Instead I propose that we include something to this effect: Simes, as director for the CFNTI, facilitated a meeting between Butina and Stanley Fischer of the Federal Reserve Bank. This meeting has since been subjected to a probe by the Senate Finance Committee.

First of all, working in an organization funded by Russian government does not automatically make anyone "Russian agent". So no, the source does not tell it. Secondly, I am not sure what's your point. That was published everywhere. Here is book by Seth Abramson "Proof of Collusion: How Trump Betrayed America". And it tells this about Simes, Butina and others. We can't eliminate this. If anything, we should expand this part to comply with WP:NPOV. Do you suggest to replace word "handler" by something else? Well, the RS tells he was "handler" and he "escaped". So that is wording we should use. Piontkovskiy tells the same: "the real chief of the ‘Trump Is Ours’ operation was Simes, and not Kislyak". My very best wishes (talk) 02:35, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

I populated the cite web template, as no date (for example), since it was confusing for me to make sense of all this; hopefully you don't mind my readability changes. X1\ (talk) 00:00, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

References

an aside

@X1.I can see that you know the subject. Why would not you improve this page? My very best wishes (talk) 21:39, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

@mvbw, I can't say I really do "know" the subject. I don't have much time to make sense of this right now. I'll make time to read the discussion later, and hopefully I can give more constructive input. It would be helpful for Tv503 to show-up since they added ref. X1\ (talk) 22:17, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: Is the Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines issue cleared-up? X1\ (talk) 22:27, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

yes, sure. My very best wishes (talk) 02:04, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

further

I'm getting uneasy about "handler". The sole source, it seems, is Felshtinsky's article (the other sources that have been discussed lead back to Felshtinsky). Even if we accept that "gordonua.com" is a reliable source (and I've got questions about that), I wonder about the specifics. Felshtinsky asserts that Butina named Simes in testimony connected with the investigation of her as a spy/foreign agent. (I do think this New Republic piece is interesting in connection with the idea of her being a spy or not.) I'm struggling to figure out how Felshtinsky would get access to testimony that doesn't seem to be in the public domain. I'm not saying I'm confident the assertion is wrong -- but I do think it's worth entertaining some doubts. I'll keep digging... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:25, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm going to pull the trigger on this one. I think WP:EXCEPTIONAL applies -- and I'm not convinced about the sole source, let alone having multiple high-quality sources. I think it's a big deal to name an American citizen as a handler of a Russian spy... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:45, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

We are clearly giving an attribution, but removing/changing one word should not really matter if the issue was properly described on the page, i.e. we need a description of the connection between the subject and Butina - per sources. Right now this is not really described. I can fix it later when I have more time and you are done. My very best wishes (talk) 23:47, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

in Mueller Report

According to the Mueller report report, Simes sent Jared Kushner a 2016 email with recommended talking points to counter Hillary Clinton's Russia attacks. In particular, Simes told Kushner that Russia allegedly recorded President Clinton on the phone with Lewinsky, opening questions of foreign leverage over the ex-president-turned-potential first spouse. The Mueller report says: “Simes claimed that he had received this information from former CIA and Reagan White House official Fritz Ermarth, who claimed to have learned it from U.S. intelligence sources.”

Moved to here. X1\ (talk) 20:27, 3 May 2019 (UTC) Per WP:RS/P the Washington Examiner is a partisan and not thus not appropriate here. Also see WP:TRUMPPOV. X1\ (talk) 20:54, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

I've add Mueller Report to "See also", if and until appropriately detailed: see section IV. "RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT LINKS To AND CONTACTS WITH THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN", A. "Campaign Period (September 2015 - November 8, 2016)", 4. "Dimitri Simes and the Center for the National Interest" with:

a. "CNI and Dimitri Simes Connect with the Trump Campaign"

b. "National Interest Hosts a Foreign Policy Speech at the Mayflower Hotel"

c. "Jeff Sessions's Post-Speech Interactions with CNI" (page 107)

d. "Jared Kushner' s Continuing Contacts with Simes"

from the "TABLE OF CONTENTS - VOLUME I" for example. X1\ (talk) 20:47, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with removal of content sourced to Examiner. However, the report itself is a good source, and it tells a lot about it. Why would not you include something yourself? My very best wishes (talk) 01:47, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: my Discussion here was more a response to User:Vlad Rutenburg (see my ESs at the article history). I was saying keep the Mueller Report link (showing contents association), rm the problematic reference. I hope to get to more contributions here as time permits. X1\ (talk) 20:39, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

References