Talk:Deth Specula

Deth Specula notability

I see that you've added a notability tag to the article on Deth Specula. I cited references from the New York Times, Newsweek, MediaCast, and other 3rd parties establishing notability. Specifically, the first live music concert with audio and video broadcast over the Internet. This, to me, seems to satisfy both the notability and citation requirements. Could you provide me with some better understanding of why you feel otherwise or how the article could be improved wrt notability? Ronald Joe Record (talk) 21:09, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you'll refer to the Wikipedia Guidelines for notability of a band, you'll note that the reliability and verifiability of a source are certainly important, however the quality of a source is just as critical. The reputable sources you've provided are either self-promotional or are trivial in nature. Specifically, the references from New York Times and Newsweek both make a very brief mention of Deth Specula; neither article is in any way about the band or the event for which you claim notability. The references from the Deth Specula website are self-promotion and therefore do not qualify for notability. Finally, the MediaCast reference doesn't provide anything more than an improperly formatted and dead link.

My motivation for the notability tag is that I dislike Wikipedia clutter by non-notable sources. It is my intention, in reasonable time, to submit this article as an AfD. Ultimately, I hope that the lack of any real notability, notable references, or any other qualifying criteria for notability of a band will sway enough people that Deth Specula is non-notable and should be removed from Wikipedia. If you can provide any further information which would be a non-trivial reference and enough to convince me of Deth Specula's notability, I'll gladly refrain from moving forward with my intentions. — X S G 04:51, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And, a note: I'm aware that I'm not a judge regarding notability. If you're unfamiliar with the AfD process, you'll find that it is generally fair; if it goes that far, you'll get the opportunity to make a case for notability. If you're confident that Deth Specula is notable, the AfD process shouldn't be a big deal. — X S G 04:35, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for responding and clarifying your concerns about this article's notability. If I understand you correctly, you're not disputing the fact that being the first to broadcast a live audio and video music concert over the Internet is notable. Rather, your concern is with the quality of the sources used to cite the notable event. Is that correct ? I've added another reference verifying this event and providing further substantiation of the notability (the Internet Underground Music Archive announcement of their broadcast and recording).

Thanks also for pointing me to the guidelines on notability. However, I don't believe Wikipedia Guidelines for notability of a band is the appropriate guideline. The article does not assert that Deth Specula is notable for their music. It asserts that Deth Specula is notable by way of their being the first band to broadcast a live concert over the Internet. As such, something like Wikipedia Guidelines for notability of Web content. That is, this notable event was, in my opinion, more similar to a significant podcast than to a significant band.

Using WP:WEB as the guideline for notability, criterion one is satisfied (The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself.). That is, the New York Times article is about " What was the first rock band in cyberspace?" and the Newsweek article is about the MBone, the emerging technology used for the broadcast. Both mention Deth Specula and can be used for verification purposes. The recently added IUMA announcement is specifically about the event and provides further verification.

Finally, thanks for pointing me to the AfD process. I look forward to learning more about this and other Wikipedia guidelines and processes. However, I do not see how the notability of this article can really be reasonably questioned. They were the first to broadcast a live music concert on the Internet; It was documented and verifiable by the New York Times, Newsweek, IUMA, and MediaWatch. Please let me know if you still have concerns and I'll try to address them. Ronald Joe Record (talk) 01:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can accept the premise that notability for Deth Specula should not be based on their notability as a band, but rather should be based on the event of being the first to stream audio and video live over the internet, however Severe Tire Damage also makes this claim, and the Newsweek article corroborates this. This means that Deth Specula is the second band to stream over the internet, not the first, and your new IUMA reference substantiates this. Still, it is questionable whether this would constitute notability. I think it might. I'm not going to split hairs; one of the tenets of the AfD process is to err on the side of keeping articles. You've created this article in good faith; if you've got a morbid curiosity to find out whether it would pass the AfD process, you're welcome to submit it. Otherwise, while I can't claim this article is safe from the process, I can say that I won't perform the submission. If you can find a source to substantiate that Deth Specula's notability is different than Severe Tire Damage's notability, I think this article will definitely clear any AfD hurdles. — X S G 03:25, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deth Specula first or second live music concert on the Internet

In the thread above on notability X S G raises the issue of whether Deth Specula or Severe Tire Damage was "the first to stream audio and video live over the internet". There is little doubt STD's live netcast preceded Specula's and that Specula's preceded all but STD's. The question is really the nature of these two Mbone broadcasts. My impression from a variety of sources was that STD's original netcast was more along the lines of a performance (some refer to it as a rehearsal) whereas Specula's was definitely a concert with promotion and a large audience. So, the article asserts that Deth Specula was the first live music concert broadcast over the Internet, not simply the first live audio/video stream over the Internet. I think the article is fair in that it does state the above claim as well as crediting STD with the first netcast. Perhaps it could be worded more clearly to provide the reader with a better understanding of the distinction between the two. Or, some may argue that it should just say "second" instead of "first". Please discuss while I research sources. Ronald Joe Record (talk) 03:34, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

General Wikipedia style...

I've heavily modified this article, hopefully not removing much (if any) content but only some sectional redundancy. I had two goals in this edit:

to mark any statements which sound like original research so a source for the information can be found and added.
to make the article follow a more traditional Wikipedia article format, specifically by trimming down the lead/head and backing the information in the lead with content in the body of the article. (The lead isn't really a good place for references and an introduction of details; it should merely reference sourced information presented in the body of the article, where further details can be found.)

— X S G 03:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whew! That LA Times citation was work. Hopefully this gets easier as I become more familiar with the guidelines and style. Thanks for reformatting to Wikipedia traditional style and re-org. I'll continue to work on adding citations where you've noted the need. Ronald Joe Record (talk) 05:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]