Talk:Derry/Archive 4

This is an archive of past discussions about Derry. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

→

UK City of Culture DYK

Just to let you all know that a fact from UK City of Culture mentioning Derry is currently on the "Did you know..." section of the homepage. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:41, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

You would think that they would at least get the name Londonderry right. The city Council may have renamed itself as Derry but the city certainly hasn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.76.201 (talk) 12:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

On wikipedia there was a consensus to call the city Derry and the county Londonderry. See WP:IMOS. Although i must say the number of times this issue is coming up is starting to concern me about the stability of this agreement, sadly i see no better option that would get agreement. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:54, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

A consensus that the City and County would be called Londonderry and the Council would be called Derry City Council along with the airport being called City of Derry Airport was reached by elected representatives who sit on Derry City Council. There is not going to be a fairer consensus reached than that. But given that the consensus on wikipedia was voted on by a group of people of unknown(although slightly obvious) persuasion, did you honestly think the outcome would be a fair representative? It seems that if I got enough people together I could pretty much change the name of anything or any place if based on consensus.Factocop (talk) 15:08, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I am not fully happy about this situation either. Id rather the the official title of the city be used, but we have to accept present consensus unless there is enough support for changing it. The only alternative i can see is Londonderry for the City and County Londonderry for the County. But whilst there are plenty of sources using just Derry, i can see why Derry was decided on. This whole thing certainly is not ideal. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:19, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Ofcourse there are always going be sources to suggest the city is called Derry. You could source the Irish Times or the Anderstown News for that but given that certain people patrol certain pages, you are never going to get an unbiased result. I don't see why the conclusion made by the elected Derry City Council was not enough?That seems the only fair way.Factocop (talk) 15:27, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

The only fair way...are you actually serious..? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.117.91 (talk) 00:46, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Northern Ireland as a country

There is an interesting discussion on the Northern Ireland WP suggesting that it is not a country with some pretty compelling evidence. Just thinking should Northern Ireland be removed and have the page say 'Derry is a city in the United Kingdom'. thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.114.44.201 (talk) 09:02, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

It is a city in Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom. Even if Northern Ireland is just a province, the city would still be in Northern Ireland. Articles on American cities tend to mention their state rather than the USA as whole in the introduction. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:08, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

To cite an incorrect Wikipedia source is just plain silly and shows just how bad theis "encyclopedia" is. There is no suc city as "Derry", Cities in the UK have charters and the name does not exist in the list! The City of Londonderry exists. I perceive mischief amongst many editors. Wikipedia is an unreliable source as it is too easily manipulated. Acorn897 (talk) 02:10, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

This must be a troll. 15:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.159.17.137 (talk)

To reword a statement, to improve the article's neutrality

Before my amendment, the sentence I updated had begun "While the city is more usually known as Derry,". I tested this sentence by using Google.ie ( Google Ireland) to search for derry city and also londonderry city - the term derry city was more common. I then used Google.co.uk to search both derry city and londonderry city, and londonderry city had more search results. It appears to me that the city might more usually be known as Derry within the Republic of Ireland but more commonly known as Londonderry with the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. So, to enhance the article's neutrality, I have reworded the sentence to begin "While the city is known as both Londonderry and Derry ..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Torquil Sorensen (talk • contribs) 06:47, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Given the history on this page, any change to the use of Derry and Londonderry should be discussed before a change is made, so I have reverted. As I remember it the current wording came from a third party source not an google search. --Snowded ^TALK 06:50, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

The change made appears to be original research. I agree with the reversion. O Fenian (talk) 09:18, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree with the revert. Consensus. --HighKing (talk) 10:19, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Who'd like to discuss names?

I took a look at the Derry name compromise thingy and it seems old and with sod all editors looking at it.

So I've created a new one. Here's my "advert" for it:

Do you want a London with that Derry?
Hey! You! Are you interested in the naming of (London)Derry on Wikipedia? You are? Well - let's have a discussion! Take a trip over here and make sure your view is counted.

Derry/Archive 4

86.178.52.148 (talk) 19:39, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I've deactivated the Category this template places pages in, it's messing with the helpme feature. Please note that placing this "advert" on pages is a violation of WP:CANVAS. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 20:26, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

TBH, an RM should be held on this article. Derry is the name of the city council, not the city itself. GoodDay (talk) 18:49, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with Giftiger Wunsch's opinion that the placing of the advert on this page at least contravenes the canvassing policy. The advertisement does not attempt to influence the result of the discussion.GSTQ (talk) 21:51, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually it is a totally unbiased advertisment. Its no different to someone asking for comments with plain old text. It even has a slightly funny intro: "Do you want a London with that Derry?". How can you call this canvassing unless its canvassing both sides! Mabuska ^(talk) 22:18, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Just noticed this. Thanks, I never did understand what was supposed to be biased about it. Egg Centric (talk) 02:13, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 81.145.165.2, 8 February 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Noteable people please add

Deigh Reid - Actor

81.145.165.2 (talk) 09:14, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Do you have a source that shows this person as being notable? Mabuska ^(talk) 12:59, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

On the subject of notability, when I look at nominations for "notable" people, I first check if they've got an article here. After that, I check to see if by way of their occupation or job, they qualify as the holders of a notable position or title. Failing that, I quickly Google for something notable. Unfortunately, I can't find anything that leads me to believe that Deigh is notable. I've also removed him from the "List of people from Derry" article. --HighKing (talk) 17:56, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. -Atmoz (talk) 01:12, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

"Renamed"

My apologies if this has been covered before, but I take issue with this sentence: "In 1613, the city was granted a Royal Charter by King James I and the "London" prefix was added, changing the name of the city to Londonderry". The city of Derry wasn't renamed Londonderry; Derry was destroyed and Londonderry built nearby. Isn't this misleading to people unfamiliar with the subject? Can someone find a ref to support this statement? JonChapple ^Talk 07:08, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

If you check up on this Talk page, this was already answered. "The Royal Charter states that the said city or town of Derry, for ever hereafter be and shall be named and called the city of Londonderry so there doesn't seem to be any confusion that it was a renaming job. That charter was in 1613, but the "Derry" city status was originally granted by charter in 1604 by James I." --HighKing (talk) 10:08, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

The settlement had been rebuilt just prior to the granting of the charter, however despite being called Derry, it wasn't on the site of the original Derry which the Irish destroyed. Maybe if the Irish didn't destroy it, it mightn't of needed rebuilt and its name altered to give appreciation to the London companies who rebuilt it.... would of saved a lot of trouble. Mabuska ^(talk) 15:19, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I was always under the impression that Derry was destroyed and Londonderry built across the river. I didn't realise Londonderry was, for a few years, Derry mk II. Thanks. JonChapple ^Talk 15:53, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

It was built across the river. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:06, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Not a lot of people know that. --HighKing (talk) 17:13, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Where might they find out? That fact [citation please] is not mentioned anywhere in the article. At present, we have The town [sic] became strategically more significant during the Tudor conquest of Ireland and came under frequent attack, until in 1608 it was destroyed by Cahir O'Doherty, Irish chieftain of Inishowen.. No mention of a city (or even town) charter in 1604?? At History of Derry we have the cryptic On this occasion the English managed to hold on to Derry and, when the war came to an end in 1603, a small trading settlement was established and given the legal status of city. In 1608 this 'infant city' was attacked by Cahir O'Doherty, Irish chieftain of Inishowen, and the settlement was virtually wiped out. What 'infant city'? Which charter? What does 'virtually wiped out' mean? [the populace? the roofs? half-timbered houses? stone buildings? walls?]. Other material suggests a green-field site for a new 'Londonderry' and run-down monastic settlement called 'Derry', perhaps across the Foyle. It seems to me that we have too much 'every skool boy no' and very little scholarly evidence. This surely worth serious research! --Red King (talk) 20:36, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Nobody's stopping you to do a little digging and research yourself. --HighKing (talk) 11:01, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Is there even a thing called a town charter? The article leaves out some claims that the monastic settlement was on an island in the River Foyle - but that depends on whether John O'Donovan is a reliable source. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:06, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

A quick Google for "Derry City Charter" throws this judgement and this PDF up on the first page. Wasn't difficult. --HighKing (talk) 11:19, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

The first one of those is a ^{[dead link‍]}. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:15, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

It's still available at archive.org --HighKing (talk) 09:34, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Translation

Can someone please translate the following into English:-

Derry City Council since started the process were involved in conducting an equality impact assessment report (EQIA).

What does it actually mean? Skinsmoke (talk) 13:38, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 13 November 2011

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

change it back to either derry or london derry....one or the other, i dont mind which, just one of them. purely for the banter of seeing people getting wound up by it and starting another edit war...everyone wins that way 217.42.167.24 (talk) 05:38, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. --Jnorton7558 (talk) 13:18, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

The city is called Londonderry and that's the end of it. It doesn't have any other official name. --FergusM1970 (talk) 05:13, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Protection request

I request that this page be protected, on the grounds that it is being repeatedly edited to state or imply that the actual name of the city is Derry. It has been repeatedly confirmed that the city is called LONDONDERRY, and this should be made clear in the lede of the article. --FergusM1970 (talk) 10:09, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Please go and read WP:DERRY also WP:COMMONNAME. Bjmullan (talk) 11:01, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Grammatically garbled sentence?

There seems to be a grammatically garbled sentence in the "Name" section: "Derry City Council since started the process were involved in conducting an equality impact assessment report (EQIA)." Can somebody figure out how to fix this? Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:30, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

"Derry City Council since started this process and were involved in conducting an equality impact assessment report (EQIA)." Think that fixes the grammar .Murry1975 (talk) 14:05, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Or even: "Derry City Council has begun the process and has conducted an equality impact assessment report (EQIA)." --HighKing (talk) 16:43, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Already changed it earlier HighKing , but I have no objections to your phrasing going in instead of mine .Murry1975 (talk) 16:55, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Infobox

In the infobox in the article the irish name comes below the name in Scots, which seems a bit strange to me, since I'd believe Irish to be more common than Scots in the area. Intending to change it, I turned to Edit, but there Irish is above Scots. How does that work out? And how can it be changed into the (according to me) more logical order of Irish above Scots? Stajn (talk) 00:32, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

See the ongoing discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles#Northern Ireland place infoboxes and similar situations. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 09:44, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

The Scots Nats placing 'Scots' names everywhere is ridiculous. Its bad enough in Scotland never mind doing it elsewhere too. Just pointless.--202.174.58.161 (talk) 01:50, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't bother worrying if it's a nationalist issue or not. --Τασουλα (talk) 01:57, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

History

Added a section on the second world war and note that that there is no section on the first and barely a mention of the key role played by the city in the famine. More needs added on these sections.Doopa (talk) 22:33, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Looks good to me! --Τασουλα (talk) 22:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Derry/Londonderry name dispute, Wikipedia

Proposal to move discussion of dispute to the name dispute page

I've tried to tidy up the discussion on this before, but see it has kicked off again... So, how does one go about moving all this discussion over to the talk page about the dispute? Is there a time limit? This talk page is a mess, only about 6 lines relate to the constructive discussion of improving the article and the rest needs to be hived off/contained in some way so that editors interested in improving the article can get on with it. Can we agree that all discussion on the dispute (i.e. what is currently section 1 along with the discussion of the requested move) will go on the dispute page? And just have a link to that page somewhere here so that if people are interested in changing the name they don't distract from improving the article? Essentially I suggest we leave a one paragraph summary explaining that name dispute related chat goes in the name dispute page and will be moved there if found here, whilst other talk is ok?

Previous introduction

This is place for all chat relating to the name of the page. I would suggest in future all chat on the name goes into the Derry/Londonderry name dispute page.Doopa (talk) 22:30, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

on the Derry/Londonderry name dispute page I was thinking of putting how the wikipedia guidelines work in the same way how the BBC guidelines are there. Any comments? C. 22468 (talk) 11:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I understand statements in Wikipedia need references to support them. What reference is used to support the statement in p1 that the city is more usually known as Derry? There isn't a reference. It is more usually known as that amongst Irish / catholic / republicans. It is more usually known as Londonderry amongst Protestants / Ulster and in the non-Irish world - the BBC calls it Londonderry. Explain this difference and don't pretend. 86.129.5.187 (talk) 11:55, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Please see multiple previous discussions --Snowded ^TALK 11:59, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I am not on about how the pages are I was on about how the Guidlines are and I was thinking of putting something like this in on the Derry/Londonderry name dispute for the Responses to the dispute section. and I wanted to see what people though first.

Wikipedia: Derry for the city and County Londonderry for the County. Other things such as Londonderry Port and Derry GAA follow their official names.

C. 22468 (talk) 17:11, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Londonderry should be used as it's within the United Kingdom. That the name offends anybody, is irrelevant. GoodDay (talk) 14:52, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I am not on about what the pages are called I wanted to just put the Wikipedia guidelines on the Derry/Londonderry name dispute#Response to the dispute because the BBC, Guardian and The Times style guides are there so why not the Wikipedia ones? C. 22468 (talk) 17:47, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Do you have any reliable sources? O Fenian (talk) 17:48, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Other than Wikipedia no but may be able to possibly find some, Is it worth doing though? C. 22468 (talk) 17:52, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

there is Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles), its what most media things use in that part and can't find anything on the Internet. C. 22468 (talk) 19:03, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

For the love of God Almighty, it's Londonderry - not Derry. It's within the UK. 109.255.108.147 (talk) 18:03, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

and as it never happened why is the wikipedia article named Derry? For example most people call "Newcastle upon Tyne" Newcastle , yet the wikipedia article uses its official and legal name. If it didn't the encyclopedia would be unreliable. so if it happens there why not here? the sentence "more usually called derry" will just annoy the heck out of unionists and that is bound to start a fight on here. The articles you have produced are original work which in themselves show no research or ways to backup their claims, its just opinions! I could write an article now on how the city is more commonly known as londonderry and post it on here and it would be down as unquestionable fact! I'm starting to think I'd be getting more reliable information from unencyclopedia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.109.42 (talk) 19:32, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe in any god, almighty or not, but it's still Londonderry. For a British city to be called by a name that Britain doesn't recognise is absurd, and damages Wikipedia's reputation. --FergusM1970 (talk) 09:17, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

The above point is a good one - this page is severely detrimental to the reputation of Wikipedia given that the official name is Londonderry. It is perfectly legitimate within the article to note the controversy but utterly absurd to change the title. As noted below the correct English name for Bombay is Bombay however the article on en.wikipedia is titled Mumbai since that is the city's official name according to the Indian government. The official name of Londonderry is Londonderry - end of argument. Until Wikipedia changes this it has to be said this page represents a political argument, political point-scoring and falls well below the standards which would be considered acceptable by an editor of any serious encyclopaedia. It is altogether rather sad that it isn't given it's correct name. Slakelives (talk) 22:49, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

i am still unsure why the name is derry. the page on bombay states mumbia because that is its name in india... most people remember it as bambay but it was changed by the sovereign country and therefore the new name now stands. the sovereign country of northern ireland uses the name Londonderry then that is what you need to call it. i have found wikipedians to be very logical but not here...why? Dave-o-dagenham (talk) 15:58, 16 September 2011 (UTC) - also google maps reffers to it as londonderry / derry - using the correct name first then a name it is also known as. and we all know that google is right on everything.. lol :)Dave-o-dagenham (talk) 16:01, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

It is the most commonly used name to describe Londonderry, and editorial discussions have decided that this justifies using shortened/colloquial names in the place of the official one. Another example is North Korea not being called Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, which is its official name. ★KEYS★ ^(talk) 16:06, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

But wikipedia is supposed to be held to encyclopaedic standards. If we go on the system of what people call a city then we would need to change the article on Mumbai to Bombay since most people there still call it by its real English name, certainly when speaking English. This article is a stain on wikipedia's reputation and it can't be allowed to be said that at some point in the past a bunch of agenda-driven obsessives flooded the site and decided the name and it can never be corrected. Slakelives (talk) 21:43, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

As many people know, Londonderry/Derry's wiki page is titled Derry. But I wanted to start by asking how people thought about this city being titled on wikipedia as Derry and not by it's offical name Londonderry? Cbowsie (talk) 23:22, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

It's daft. JonC ^Talk 08:57, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Yawn, here we go again see all the previous discussions, and they probably feel the same as they do about a country, Ireland (official name) being called Republic of Ireland. Mo ainm~Talk 09:09, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. The majority of people in Derry call it Derry. The majority of people in Ireland call it Derry and it wins in the Google hits count. That's a clear common name to me. And before you start going on about it being a nationalist thing you should check out Siege of Derry, Bishop of Derry and Apprentice Boys of Derry.Bjmullan (talk) 09:15, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

just because its the common name for the city does not make it its OFFICIAL name. Just because its what most people call it doesnnt mean it should be its title in an encyclopdia, if that was the case newcastle upon tyne's page would be simple titled "newcastle". And as for all those links you posted, those events (the siege of derry) and the organisation (the apprentice boys of derry) were both formed/ took place BEFORE the city was officially renamed Londonderry, so what you are saying makes no sense. try doing some research. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.88.106 (talk) 15:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

No, the Apprentice Boys used "Derry" as an informal of shortening. The city has always called Londonderry since being a city (before that there was no manjor settlement other than a monastery (a British military garrison on a different location does not count, no matter how much it is spun). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.182.215.182 (talk) 03:59, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not really opposed to the page itself being at Derry, but I am opposed to having "Derry / Londonderry" in the "official name" field in the infobox. Derry / Londonderry is not the city's official name. The infobox should say Londonderry only. JonC ^Talk 09:26, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Well it's better than not having the official name in it. And to counter Mo ainm - Republic of Ireland is an official description of the Irish state as imposed by the Republic of Ireland act. Derry on the other hand has no official status at all in any way other than as the name of the council area which doesn't affect the city. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:07, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Where does it say that in the Irish Constitution? Mo ainm~Talk 11:11, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Surely you can come up with something better than that. Who said anything about the Irish Constitution? I said the Republic of Ireland Act. What does it clearly state in point 2? State sanctioned and passed, so official, and never revoked so still official. Case closed. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:34, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Section 2 of the Act quite simply provides: "It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland."Description, it does not state it even as an official description so you are wrong Mabuska.143.239.70.68 (talk) 17:44, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

So its not official despite the fact it was passed by the Republic of Ireland's own parliament? It doesn't need to state official explicitly for it to be so - the fact the state's own parliament passed the act makes it official. Jeeze talk about pedantic for the sake of it. Unless of course you saying the Oireachtas isn't the official parliament of the Republic and that its governed by some other institution instead? Mabuska ^(talk) 11:01, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

"Jeeze talk about pedantic for the sake of it. Unless you are saying...." - please tone down the personal comments. No excuse for it. You know better. --HighKing (talk) 11:07, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Pedantic is not a harsh or hard toned word. It is a single word that helps get across a meaning that'd take several words or a whole sentence to. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:36, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Since you've asked, the city's name is Londonderry. Thus my reason for supporting the article being moved to Londonderry. GoodDay (talk) 04:52, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

The republic of ireland is the official name for the country, not Ireland, Ireland is the name of the island not the country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.88.106 (talk) 15:02, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for everyone’s feedback. Okay so the feeling I am getting from reading the comments in response to my question and the above comments before my question is that a lot of people do not agree with the page being called Derry and that it is the same people disagreeing with Londonderry being used. Therefore my second question now is; why is this page still called Derry despite the fact that this page alone shows that there is wide support for Londonderry. Thank you for your responses in advanced.Cbowsie (talk) 00:31, 1 December 2011 (UTC) 23:33, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

In general wp prefers common names, see WP:COMMONNAME, as Bjmullan said earlier - Lugnad (talk) 23:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Problem with that is Londonderry and Derry are both common names for the city. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:34, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

There are a few articles that come to mind that people do not agree with in naming terms and terms used within , British Isles and Republic of Ireland being two examples but guidelines are in place to give a clear understanding of what should be used , even if some of us disagree with them we are here to make Wiki better not argue over it time and time again . PS Cbowsie sign in when on line . Understandable that sometimes it can be forgotten .Murry1975 (talk) 09:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I understand that many places have been given common names, but do you not agree that having the correct name for a page such as this one would be important to ensure that people are being informed of the correct and official name. I agree that the reasons why Derry is used should be highlighted, but is having the page titled such because it is common necessary?Cbowsie (talk) 00:30, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

You have introduced no new arguments from the last time you brought this up. You were informed of policy last June and received a warning for one of your edit summaries. Given that there was no excuse for you editing the article direct some months ago. I really hope you have not decided to make this an annual occurance. Wikipedia policy on common names is clear and the long standing "Derry for the city Londonderry for the county" agreement has provided much needed stability. In respect of your comment about "wide support for Londonderry" I suggest you count the numbers which don't really match that statement, or reflect the fact that most editors are really bored with stable positions being disrupted for no good reason. --Snowded ^TALK 05:05, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Well i don't know how much of your comment is correct or can be backed up with any evidence, however i wouldn't say the "consensus" is the most stable seeing how many times throughout a week we have to revert someone going against it on some article. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:48, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I would disagree that it's every week Mabuska. Also, as the page has several thousand visits a week, the odd issue doesn't suggest that the common name is unstable. --NorthernCounties (talk) 20:44, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I didn't say about this one article, i said "on some article". It does happen quite a lot. It might be stable on this article, but that doesn't mean it is everywhere else. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:49, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

When this argument comes up time after time we are usually given one of two answers; 'it's already been answered or that's what the consensus said'. May I ask when this consensus was made regarding the title and its conclusion? Cbowsie (talk) 00:31, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

WP:IMOS Mo ainm~Talk 00:41, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

As it was some time ago a consensus was made, how do you go about getting a new consense? Thanks Cbowsie (talk) 21:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC) ???Cbowsie (talk) 23:03, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

See the link to IMOS, raise it there --Snowded ^TALK 06:14, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

there is the last failed official attempt to request a move to a different name. Given that WP:COMMONNAME (which is part of the wider policy on article titles) says "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources" and Derry being the common name is reliably sourced, the chances of a move succeeding would seem to be virtually nil. So do you have anything constructive to add to the encyclopedia except bleating about the name of this article being one you don't like? Read WP:TITLECHANGES, "Editing for the sole purpose of changing one controversial title to another is strongly discouraged". 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:31, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Derry and Londonderry are both common names. 194.72.9.24 (talk) 15:33, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

The way in which editors reply to neutral POV messages concerns me. All I have asked is why this page is being called something it's not even though there is wider support for the change which can be seen on this page alone. I have then asked as an editor who does not know great detail of Wikipedia how I go about changing this and I get replies as if I’m a bigot. However thank you to those who supplied the links. Also could I ask editors to provide sources as to where it is proven that 'Derry' is more common? Don't you think that an editor such as myself who actually lives here to be a reliable source. Cbowsie (talk) 22:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

There are sources for Derry and there are sources for LDerry, as a compromise IMOS came up with Derry for the City and LDerry for the county, this works well and prevents endless debate on numerous articles about the name. Mo ainm~Talk 23:04, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

It's not science but a search of google brings back 35,100,000 results for Derry and 25,600,000 for Londonderry. Also you should be aware (as someone who claims to live there) that the majority of the people who live in Derry call it Derry. Thankfully Gerrymandering isn't as common in the city as it was in the 1960s. Bjmullan (talk) 23:34, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the first paragraph, do you not think that it should state right from the beginning that Londonderry is the legal/official name and not at the end of this paragraph. Cbowsie (talk) 23:06, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

It mentions both names at the start , runs through the origin and meanings and finishes with the legal name . I think it flows well and shows an understanding of the origin and changes of the name . Its a hell of a lot better written than some leads on wiki.Murry1975 (talk) 23:19, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Well take France for example; it states the official name in the very first words. What about saying the first words "Officially Londonderry" and leave the rest as it is? Cbowsie (talk) 22:21, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Well that could go either way , as in "Originally Derry". It flows well in the way it states the information and gives the reader a quick guide to the article which is what leads are meant to. It would be foolish to think a lead would state the full contents of the article in the lead but it gives a good embodiment of it. The use of the common name and official name their viewed political meanings and the problems associated with these is given in the article. The leaving of this to the article but covering it in the way the lead does is done very well.Murry1975 (talk) 09:51, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

People seem to of lost their heads in an argument, as it was decided Londonderry for the county name and Derry to the city name, an entirely fair compromise that in no way harms the integrity of the encyclopedia. People just love arguing. (And now I'm wondering why both Londonderry and Derry were NOT recognized by my GChrome spellchecker, honestly, Americans!) --Nutthida (talk) 16:55, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Seems to me to be bowing to compromise when an encyclopaedia should be stating the legal name. The legal name is Londonderry, it even says so in the introduction. To name the article Derry, and then state its legal name as Londonderry, is a contradiction and needs to be fixed. Thedaveformula (talk) 09:32, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Why do you think it a contradiction? Fmph (talk) 10:35, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

It's a contradiction to name the page Derry and then state that its legal name as Londonderry. This city is in the UK, its legal name is Londonderry, that may change, who knows, but until it does its name under constitutional law is Londonderry. How much more support does a name change need when its current governing country are saying its official name is Londonderry? Thedaveformula (talk) 18:16, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Welcome Thedaveformula to Irish articles where nothing is ever what it seems. A few pointers so you know where your feet are WP:TROUBLES, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:DERRY( or if you prefer WP:LONDONDERRY) the last one is part of WP:IMOS. On this page you should read the archieves, it helps doing that on any Ireland related article (yes I found out the hard way). But as a cursory note there are other articles that are effected common/legal/offical name. You should understand that we use British English in the article but could use Hiberno-English, American-English, Ulster-Scots or any other form on the talk page , enjoy.Murry1975 (talk) 19:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Dave - unfortunately that's not considered a contradiction in Wikipedia terms. As Murry says, have a read of WP:COMMONNAME which is the most apposite policy in this case. My favourite quote from it is this one:

"Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources."

So that's why it wouldn't be seen as a contradiction in this case. Fmph (talk) 19:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

This following policy seems to be a habit amongst the wiki community that I accept for now but don't like: "The rules have already been decided, if you disagree with how an article is done, you can view these pre-ordained rules at ...." well, what if the rules aren't good enough? For me, questioning the title of this article is not one of political agenda - if Londonderry joins a United Ireland then the page names becomes Derry, fair play. But right now, as we speak, Londonderry is part of the UK and its legal name is Londonderry. Thedaveformula (talk) 18:30, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

@ Bjmullan - it's pointless to use Google to try to prove your point. Considering Google will list webpages that contain "derry" as part of the word that means it's going to include webpages to do with Ballinderry, Derrymore, Edenderry, Derryard and many other places as well as the usage in GAA sites and republican propaganda ones. Then you also have to take into account that Londonderry is the also title of Marquiss and an island off the coast of Chile and of several towns/cities in the USA. Google for this point is pointless. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:49, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

In fairness, BJMullan wasn't trying to use Google to try to prove his point. He started his post with It's not science but a search of google.... --HighKing (talk) 14:03, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

This fight has gone on long enough. As soon as the name is changed officially to Derry then I'll be one of the first to call it such. But right now it's Londonderry and I expect Wikipedia to name it properly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bunters196 (talk • contribs) 16:34, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

The official name to whom exactly? Face up to the fact that this encyclopedia does not work to pander to any side but tries to represent a NPOV, we have the County as Londonderry and the city as Derry. This is maintained for balance and neutrality. It's clearly explained in the lead that Londonderry is the legal name (whatever that means) but that's absolutely no reason to ignore the numerous people, organisations, and political entities that describe it as Derry. --Nutthida (talk) 09:07, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

The official name to everyone. Mooretwin (talk) 10:25, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that means administrative/legal name. What various entities name it as could be seen as official to them. For instance Derry Senior Football Championship - I was being general in its usage. Apologies. (Sorry if I'm not making sense, I'm really tired :C) --Nutthida (talk) 10:54, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, yes, and GAA articles accordingly use the name "Derry" for the county. Mooretwin (talk) 09:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Official name is dictated by the state the place is a part of. Organisations confer no official status. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:10, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Great quote - you should use it over at the "Republic of Ireland / Ireland" debate sometimes. Oh wait.... --HighKing (talk) 20:17, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

It's been used many times if you read the debates - Republic of Ireland is the official description of the state according to the Irish state's Republic of Ireland Act. Go figure. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

The difference being that Londonderry isn't 60-odd years old and occupying most of Londonderry island... JonC ^Talk 20:47, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that Catholic nationalists call the city Derry for political reasons, notwithstanding its official name. For Wikipedia to accept the abbreviated name is to take a political position in support of Catholic nationalists. Surely that is wrong - the article must be retitled Londonderry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 06:45, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

So you're saying every Catholic (Correction: Republican, some of which are not Catholics) calls it Derry just to for political reasons? That's probably not true at all. --Τασουλα (talk) 19:07, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

In 2007, the High Court of the United Kingdom ruled that the city's offical name is Londonderry. [1] Clyde1998 (talk · contribs)

So what? 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 17:27, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. I also want to note on why this user left a message on an old thread...easy mistake to make, though. Oh it's raining outside and my head hurts.--Τασουλα (talk) 20:41, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Introduction is wrong

Derry was not renamed Londonderry. Londonderry was founded as a completely seperate settlement on the other side of the river from old Derry. The two then grew into each other and it was the Londonderry name which held strongest and became the name of them both. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.150.19.235 (talk) 04:16, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, you have a point. This "old Derry" was also essentially a British military outpost though I believe it was effectively torn down. The dishonest use by Irish Nationalists to try and use it as evidence to deny that Londonderry is the original city name is highly ironic!

Wrong. Derry was sacked in 1608. The rebuilding of the Derry began in 1609. The city was renamed as part of the King James charter of 1613. Bjmullan (talk) 10:55, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Also, please sign your posts and not rely on a unreliable/overworked bot to do it for you...--Τασουλα (talk) 11:40, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Just call it Londonderry/Derry or Derry/Londonderry or... DerLon

Wikipedia is the only place that claims to have found an "agreement" on this, and from the discussions here, since 2005, which pretty much make any other discussions about the article impossible, there clearly is no real agreement, just the problem of Wikipedia:Systemic bias where the majority of the people watching the article feel very strongly about it - there's never going to be a final agreement one way the other the same way there is not any in real life, and Wikipedia shouldn't try claim false consensus based over who is around at the time to get a "consensus" fixed in stone (and then say, but, "you missed the consensus! we agreed!" than an accurate representation of people at large.

"But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."

"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."

"But the plans were on display ..."

"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."

"That's the display department."

"With a flashlight."

"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."

"So had the stairs."

"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"

"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."

Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

--Mistress Selina Kyle ^{(Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉)} 19:31, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree pretty much. We need to find a balance and not a compromise. Consensus can change so people referring to previous consensus as if it is written law that cannot be changed is a little silly, this happens in just about every article with disputes such as this one. Also, there's always a lack of outside interest and people previously un involved. I have no opinion on what the title of the article should be mind you, this is just common sense n'all :P --Τασουλα (talk) 19:47, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Proposed superior solution

Wikipedias current policy is woefully biased and does not reflect the real world. Sensible non-sectarian people in Northern Ireland who don't make the name an issue call it Londonderry in formal contexts (e.g. in writing, on letters or on maps) and Derry for short in casual conversation (just like Newtownards is called Ards for short by locals and the council is Ards Borough Council; also Carrickfergus/Carrick) (this is regardless of political/religious background). A better solution is the following:

The article to be at Londonderry since article titles are formal (compare to Newtownards, Carrickfergus, Kingston Upon Hull and Newcastle Upon Tyne)
The article to open with the text "Derry, officially Londonderry"
Body text in all articles to use Derry but must also use Londonderry at least once
Londonderry on all maps

The "compromise" of naming the County Londonderry and city Derry is also a nonsense as the county is no longer used for administrative puposes (therefore fewer instances) and also informally known as County Derry. I believe the same solution above should be also used for the county. 86.182.215.182 (talk) 03:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Until the current policy changes I believe that the article should have a NPOV tag. 86.182.215.182 (talk) 04:00, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

You're more likely to see Iris Robinson at a Gay Pride march than get consensus for that proposal. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 08:28, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Well considering many editors (such as yourself) are more keen to use Wikipedia as a propaganda ftool to further the Irish Republican cause than they are to try and state objective facts then that is not surprising. This proposal is more non-sectarian than any other I've seen and more inline with the standard protocols used in news reports concerning the city. 86.167.249.67 (talk) 09:29, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

You are really going to get far by accusing other editors on here. Bjmullan (talk) 11:44, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out ONIH's comment wasn't actually...er...anything to do with his own opinion. I can't see those proposals being accepted and I don't care what this article is called, really. --Τασουλα (talk) 12:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

This guy is a known pro-IRA propagandist - some of us weren't born yesterday. Clearly, since you don't care, then I'd agree with the proposor that a NPoV tag is required.

Eat your heart out. And while I wont deny my belief that ONIH has some sympathies with a political side you may not agree with, saying he's in cahoots or whatever with a laughable excuse of a "terrorist group" (These days) is going a bit too far. Irish republicanism has largely moved on. --Τασουλα (talk) 10:02, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Possible moratorium

It seems like never month passes without yet another new editor raising the issue of the name. A good compromise was thrashed out some time ago and its supported by sources. Maybe (like the name of IRELAND) its time to call a monitories on raising the issue for a few years to give everyone some peace. --Snowded ^TALK 17:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Nearly always on a Monday too ;). All joking aside, it is understandable that new editors have confusion with the issue, likewise I have came across experienced editors who fail to edit in the correct Ireland or when editing a page leave it incorrect. We should AGF with new editors and understand thier confusion, from both sides, the comprimise was made sometime ago and whether new editors are aware or not giving a warning over the voicing of their view on it could be pointy, at least in the first instance.Murry1975 (talk) 17:35, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the AGF bit. A lot of people coming here might be very confused indeed - and not have any kind of POV agenda. We should though take into consideration these people would and possibly should seek to understand the situation before starting yet another discussion. --Nutthida (talk) 09:09, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Just an idea but if you click to edit List_of_indie_rock_musicians for example, you get a large box advising you what edits should and shouldn't be made. Possibly a similar header could be added to this talk page, advising editors of previous discussions before they go over well trodden ground? Valenciano (talk) 13:18, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Thats a good idea Valenciano, there is an note on the page but an edit notice would not be able to be removed unlike the note [2]. Murry1975 (talk) 13:46, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Should the section title not be "Possible moratorium" as opposed to the non-existent word "monitorium"? Mabuska ^(talk) 12:38, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Changed, us dyslectics are not best at spelling .... --Snowded ^TALK 12:39, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know whether that was sarcasm, a joke or serious. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, serious, I do have mild dyslexia, and am eternally grateful for spell checkers (silicon and carbon). Good catch, I corrected and thanks --Snowded ^TALK 16:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the revert of your comment Nutthida, there is nothing wrong with the temperature in here. In all seriousness i would never have guessed, however worry not, i still have to look up Google for the proper spelling of many words. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I used to hide it with bad handwriting, but these days life is easier, and you don't get a ruler across the hand for every word you get wrong in the weekly spelling test! --Snowded ^TALK 06:53, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

It's very hard to tell. Stupid internet words - I think "Ambiguous" and "Lack of Tone" is the issue. Yes, I have to make corrections all the time - foreign born and probably dyslexic too. In general people like me are very good at looking for correct spellings for Wikipedia. I like a tidy talk-page (Indents are big for me) and would probably enjoy cleaning talk pages up (Indenting other peoples posts, rude as it may seem, is acceptable). Even this page could be tidied up. Maybe I'll correct other people's spellings? No wait. Too far. TOO far. (Also, Google Maps has it as Londonderry/Derry on their maps) --Nutthida (talk) 19:53, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Google Maps weren't great quality for a long time as many of the map names were actually based directly on Wikipedia! The Ordnance Survey of Northern Ireland (Northern Ireland's official mapping agency and used by the Northern Ireland government) uses only Londonderry. Microsoft Bing maps uses Londonderry in large text and underlined, with Derry in small text. 86.182.215.182 (talk) 03:47, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Closed part of discussion that was started by a now blocked sock-puppet of User:Factocop

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Just had an edit reverted, and can see alot of dicussion. Can someone show me where the original discussion is on this? My edit was against a long standing consensus, but reading this talk page, not everyone is happy. In brief can someone tell me why the official name is not used? I can think of one other city with a name change that does not suffer from this argument - Mumbai. Mumbai is the official name and Bombay is its former name, though many still refer to the city as Bombay. Why does the same not apply here?CodSaveTheQueen (talk) 13:42, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

See Talk:Derry/Archive 3#Introduction to begin with. Wikipedia is not obliged to use official names for articles, see WP:COMMONNAME. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 14:18, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Hacks, Ill take a read.CodSaveTheQueen (talk) 09:48, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I read that discussion and it just seems like a lot of silly squables. It seems the use of 'Londonderry' has been shouted down. I don't see how a common name should take prominence over an official name and why a consensus is even needed to correct this. Bizarre really.CodSaveTheQueen (talk) 10:16, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

It's also completely standard for the name of the article to appear first in the lede. --Τασουλα (talk) 14:43, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Is it standard to have the incorrect name of the article to appear?CodSaveTheQueen (talk) 09:48, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

It's not the "incorrect name". When you say "incorrect name", what you mean is "not the official name". Much of the same discussion takes place at the "Republic of Ireland" article, where "Ireland" is the "official" name. A few years back, because of the constant raising and reraising of the same discussion on the Talk page, a moratorium of 2 years on discussions was put in place since it was deemed disruptive for the Talk page to constantly be full of the same discussion. Perhaps a similar approach should be taken here. --HighKing (talk) 10:29, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, when I say incorrect I mean unofficial and when I say correct I mean official. I think the Council is Derry City Council, but the City is still officially known as Londonderry, though I know it pains some to utter London. I think in the case of ROI vs Ireland, it is best to use ROI, as the Island is also called Ireland and the island is more prominant. However Londonderry vs Derry is a different case. Are you saying that Derry is preferred so as to not cause confusion with Londonderry, New Hampshire?CodSaveTheQueen (talk) 11:39, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I've participated in too many iterations of this discussion, apologies but I'm not going to start another. You aren't making any new points. I propose a moratorium of 12 months on discussing the name of this article anywhere on WP, same as what we did at RoI (which was successful it must be said). Anyone else agree? --HighKing (talk) 12:18, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree. All this will lead to is TL:DR arguments over and over again about how Wikipedia should use the "Official name" (Which is only "official to some people, groups and organisations, as has been rightly pointed out Wikipedia is not bound to use the "official name"...whatever that means) - which is clearly disruptive to this talk-page. --Τασουλα (talk) 12:43, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

OK, I'm not going to dispute this but as it stands the article title and lead are not neutral. Again the same argument can be applied that only a certain group of people/organisations use Derry, which was the name of the city 400 years ago. Obviously this is a touchy topic but the question should be asked, if this page is built on consensus, why is it as you say constantly being brought up over and over again?CodSaveTheQueen (talk) 14:08, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand how you could come to the conclusion that the article's title is non-neutral (especially considering how the article on the county is named Londonderry) but it's best to just leave it as it is. The article title is just the title after all. --Τασουλα (talk) 15:36, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

This page is a can of worms. The page is not neutral as it focuses on Derry. The County Londonderry page is a different story. Though County Coleraine page is worth reading also.CodSaveTheQueen (talk) 15:50, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

That article is about a county that hasn't existed for 400 years and has barely any information on it. And this article is about the City of Derry/Londonderry, it states this in the lead. If the article was called Londonderry it would still be about the EXACT same city. The article's title is Derry and has been for a long time, probably none of the editors who have left comments above were around when this article came into existence. We are not obliged here to confirm to so-called "official" names as explained previously. If you think Derry is non-neutral then wanting the title to be Londonderry is just as non-neutral, right? This is nothing to do with neutrality. The article could be called Londonderry, sure - but it's called Derry and that's fine. As a Brit, you should know not even Brits just use "Londonderry" - and Derry was decided to be the most common name. --Τασουλα (talk) 16:51, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

It's everything to do with neutrality. Titling the article after the name of the city, rather than of a nickname used primarily by one side in a divided society, is the only neutral option. — JonC ^ॐ 17:43, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I pointed out it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference if the article was called Londonderry... It would still be about the same place, in the same country, on the same Island, on the same planet, in the same Solar System, in the same Galaxy...Same universe...same dimension...if they exist. It's just the title of the article. Londonderry by that logic would be just as non-neutral. At the end of the day, it's been named Derry here for a long time and changing it would be pointless. --Τασουλα (talk) 17:52, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's the title that's non-neutral. "Londonderry" (as a title) can't be non-neutral, because it's the name of the city. — JonC ^ॐ 17:57, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

But that's just the "official" (whatever that really means, or what exactly is implied deep-down) name, isn't it? --Τασουλα (talk) 18:01, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

If you don't know what "official" means then I can't help you. But it does same rather un-neutral as it stands. Derry used by Nationalists, Londonderry used by loyalists, but only one of those is the official name. So the neutral thing to do was to use Derry and ignore fact aswell as history? errrrr???? that doesn't make sense. I'm leaving this now as this seems like a situation that will never change.CodSaveTheQueen (talk) 12:40, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

It is said that the present title is a compromise. However I would question that. The choice is between Derry (the Catholic informal name) and Londonderry (the official name). The use of Derry is a political decision. Whenever there is political dispute, the official title should be used- to do otherwise would be for Wikipedia to adopt a political stance.203.184.41.226 (talk) 07:22, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia uses official titles in other cases. The only logical reason for calling Londonderry "Derry" is that a majority of editors contributing to this discussion are Roman Catholics or so-called Nationalists", and not willing to follow the normal encyclopaedic rules of Wikipedia. This isn't a compromise, it is a political hijacking.203.184.41.226 (talk) 07:21, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

No personal attacks please. I am neither a Roman Catholic, a nationalist OR Irish for your information. There is no set-in-stone rule that "official" names are used for articles, the common name of the city is Derry or Londonderry. It just happens to be called Derry here. --Τασουλα (talk) 12:10, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

"but for thousands of years before that people had been living in the vicinity."

Can we find out any more info about the people who inhabited the area that now makes up Derry? Does Derry have any ancient, prehistoric sites? There's nothing in the History of Derry article either. The sentence is a complete loner here. --Τασουλα (talk) 00:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

[3] looking at this map, it would show the area was largely or entirely glaciated during the last ice-age...I think it's safe to assume it wasn't inhabited by Humans before then..? --Τασουλα (talk) 00:34, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

There is a block on the article now so i cannot add, however this is a link fo the Neolithic site that was discovered in Derry in 2002 [4] and a Mesolithic site discovered in the 1970s called Mount Sandel [5] --SRaemiA (talk) 23:50, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Mount Sandel is in Coleraine in the county of Londonderry, not the city. Still there have been artifacts going back 10'000 years found in County Londonderry at least 8'000 years before any Gael emerged. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:29, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Ancient name

I see there's some to-ing and fro-ing over the "ancient" Irish name - whether it used be spelled Daire or Doire, etc. The Causeway Coastal Route reference isn't the best. But there are better.

Planning Derry: Planning and Politics in Northern Ireland states:

The city has a recorded history stretching back to at least 545 when St Colmcille (Columba 521-97) founded a monastery where the present city now stands. At that time there was already a fortification on the island then known as Daire Calgach. When the land was given to St Columba for his monastery an oak grove covered the site, giving the place its Irish name daire.

A Dictionary of British Place-Names states:

Derry (Doire) Derry. Doire Calgaigh 535. 'Oak grove'. The original Irish name was Doire Chalgaigh, 'Calgach's oak grove'. A later name was Doire Cholm Cille, 'Columcille's oak grove', after a monastery founded by St Columba in 546. In 1613 Derry was renamed Londonderry by a group of merchants from London.

The Origin and History of Irish Names of Places states:

Doire or daire [derry] is an oak wood and is almost always represented in anglicised names by derry or derri. (skip some and then) The most ancient name of Londonderry, according to all our authorities, was Daire-Calgaich [Derry-Calgagh]]; Adamnan, in one place uses this name, and elsewhere he translates it Roboretum-Calgachi, the orak wood of Calgach. (skip some more) Daire-Calgaich was the old pagan name used for ages before St. Columba erected his monastery there in 546.

And finally Irish Pedigrees: Origin and Stem of the Irish Nation states:

Derry, in Irish, "Doire," signifies an Oak Wood; and the town was anciently called "Doire-Calgach," signifying the Oak Wood of Calgach, from a chief of that name;

There are different reliable scholarly sources using both "daire" and "doire" as the root. Our job isn't to present one viewpoint in favour of another so there's a strong case to represent both names. Thoughts? --HighKing (talk) 12:22, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

All names and spellings should be included, so long as we note which ones ar Old Irish, Middle Irish, Erly Modern Irish, and so forth. However, I think we should keep them in the "Name" section to avoid cluttering the lede. All we really need to say in the lede is that Derry comes from Daire or Doire. ~Asarlaí 20:44, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Here's another source for Daire. Also that Irish Pedigrees one is a poor source for reliability as the sentences after the one that interests us makes clear: it claims that the territory of County Londonderry was part of Tir Eoghain and known as O'Cahan's Country - err... wrong. O'Cahan's Country only covered the top half of the present county with the bottom half actually being part of Tir Eoghain with O'Cahan only acknowledging Tir Eoghain as overlord. John O'Hart is a unreliable historian anyways with even Edward Mac Lysaght stating so (which is ironic considered how unreliable he was also).

@Asarlai: It's incorrect to say that Derry derives from Doire when Doire is the modern form of Daire. The article already contains the fact in its name section and the change to the lede is to remove the inconsistency and incorrectness of stating it derives from "Doire".

I did add in afterwords: (modern Irish: Doire) along with the earliest mention of the place - makes the context as obvious as the sky being blue as far as i can tell. Also take in the fact the Irish for oak is still "dair" and "darach", for example the "Dair Ghaelach" (or Sessile Oak tree species). Yet even in Irish Gaelic's sister languages: in Manx Gaelic it's "darragh" and "darree" and in Scotch Gaelic "darach". Shows a common origin of the word from "Dair" not "Doir". Mabuska ^(talk) 22:43, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Also take into consideration: Durrow, County Offaly and Kildare which both have parts in their name that mean oak and, and though the Irish word given is different from Daire or Doire, both use "Dar" instead or "Dor". Mabuska ^(talk) 22:43, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi Mabuska. It's incorrect to say that Doire is the "modern" Irish equivalent of Daire. Both spellings were used in ancient times. We can see in the Annals of the Four Masters that both were used for numerous place names. For example, Derrane in Roscommon is mentioned as Doiréan, and Derrinlaur (a townland in Waterford) is mentioned as "Doire-an-lair" (middle derry) are examples of Doire being used. And I've only ever seen mention of "Doire Colmcille" or "Doire Cholmcille" - and that name goes back to the 10th century.

The point is to represent the sources fairly and evenly - per NPOV. There are some sources that say "Derry" derives from "Daire", and others that say "Derry" derives from "Doire". It's not our job to pick and chose sources we like. So long as they're reliable and not FRINGE, they should be represented.

I propose that the sentence in the lede is changed to "The name Derry is an anglicisation of the Irish name Daire or Doire meaning "oak grove". This is an accurate summary with the key facts. All other matters on the name can be moved to the name section where the complete history of the name can be dealt with. --HighKing (talk) 16:12, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree. The NI Placename Project also shows that both spellings wer in use since records began. ~Asarlaí 18:15, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the proposed sentence by HK. Mo ainm~Talk 18:49, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Go on ahead - insert factually incorrect information based upon flawed arguments. Flawed how? Well how ancient do you think the Annals of the Four Masters is? We have facts that tell us it was called "Daire" from AD75 - the Annals of the Four Masters was compiled in the 17th century so it can hardly be called a good source to use for this discussion - that's 1600 years of difference - by which time Daire had been replaced by Doire. Asarlai's link is also flawed evidence in that regard as the early Irish forms provided are from the Annals of the Four Masters (AFM) and the Annals of Ulster (AU) - note how the Annals of Ulster, a 15th century source, states "Daire". The AU is an older source than the AFM. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:48, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Also HK - a 10th century mention of "Doire Cholmcille" is not as old as references dating back to the 1st century. Your source also backs up my view - what does it say in the 2nd paragraph on the right hand side of the first page? What does it say it's original name was? Mabuska ^(talk) 10:55, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Just thinking about it what we (especially I) are looking at this in the wrong way - what we really should be looking at is when the first Anglicizations of Derry appear not the oldest form of the Irish word - is it from a period where the Irish for it was "Daire" or from the period when it had become known as "Doire". That would sort it out - however that may prove hard to discover so in that respects i can accept HK's suggestion of "Daire or Doire" as without that kind of proof we can't really say. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:14, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Mabuska. And I think lots of this material should find its way into the "Name" section which I haven't looked at in detail yet, but I can see some improvements that can be made. --HighKing (talk) 15:20, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Here's a suggestion. The "Name" section isn't structured very well. It starts off with "official name", throws in a couple of sentence on the history, then talks about the preferences of nationalists, the argues about the merits of Londonderry over Derry, etc. I suggest that the paragraph is restructured as follows:

Start off with the history of the name, from Daire Chalgach onwards.
A summary of the name dispute.
A summary of the current situation and nicknames
Trivia is relevant

We should strive to keep the summaries relatively short - most of the detail for the dispute and the current situation is in Derry/Londonderry name dispute. --HighKing (talk) 15:26, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

It would be easy enough to do it in a chronological order from Daire Calgach until the adoption of "London" into its name. The political controversy over the name can be mentioned afterwords. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:16, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Though the best source for the name section would be the Londonderry/Foyle edition of the Queen's place names project which i would consider the authority on the origins of place names. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:18, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I think a chronological telling is the best way to go about it. Note that we'll need to take all reliable sources into account - but I don't see that leading to any problems. --HighKing (talk) 17:41, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

The Queen's place-name project is the authoritative reliable source for such things - their work is exhaustive. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:36, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Any links? I found this and was a little surprised to see the county referred to as Derry though. --HighKing (talk) 16:20, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

That's the very book i have. Curious as to why they choose just that rather than a stroke version - maybe their project manager prefers it ;-) For each townland they go into linguistic and phonetic study of the name as well as geography and history to find the most likely origin of a place name - more extensive and accurate research than anything else i've seen. Whilst there is no online links directly to the good work in the books, this i believe is derived from their work. Whilst i doesn't go into the detail of those books, it does give derivations of places where applicable and sometimes a bit of history. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:40, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Requested move:Derry to Londonderry

Closed. The same user raised the same proposal only four days ago and it was closed as WP:SNOW. See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ireland_Collaboration#Londonderry. --RA (talk) 21:55, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Current convention is based on a compromise that the city be called Derry and the County be called Londonderry. Everyone knows that there has never been a County Derry in the history of Ireland and that before being named County Londonderry it was a mash up of County Coleraine and part of County Tyrone. There is no dispute that the county is called Londonderry. So how is this a compromise? Londonderry is also the official name of the city following the siege of Derry when Derry, at the time had been all but destroyed. Londonderry is also a city in Northern Ireland where the majority population are of unionist persuasion and hence would call the city Londonderry. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and hence should use the official name, not a name, born from a skewed compromise to keep a cell of users happy. No doubt this request will come with a number of users stating same as previously discussed, but these comments are not helpful and are meaningless. Lets have a proper discussion on this....46.7.113.111 (talk) 21:04, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Considering 3/4's of the population of the city are Catholic, I doubt that claim. And yes, this has been discussed before, and nothing is going to change. I don't see any compelling reason to have one name preferred over the other personally (though admittedly, I prefer Derry from the reasons belonging to WP:COMMONAME), but what I do see is that changing it would be utterly pointless. It's just a name. The "official" name argument is discussed here. --Τασουλα (talk) 21:20, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

What claim? Londonderry is just as much a common name as Derry, though Londonderry is also the official name so...shouldn't Londonderry be used? Saying that nothing is going to change. is not a constructive attitude. I don't see any compelling reason to have one name preferred over the other personally - I still don't understand why Derry is preferred...46.7.113.111 (talk) 21:37, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

>

Oppose No new argument has been put forward. I also believe that controversial move requests in certain subject areas should only be opened by registered editors with a minimum number of edits to their name. --HighKing (talk) 22:59, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
This topic was just closed by RA based on the fact the user previously opened a discussion on this 4 odd days ago. --Τασουλα (talk) 23:09, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
Oppose I gave good reasons at the other place for opposing just a few days ago. It looks like the proposer can't be bothered to read the reasons for opposes so why should I bother putting them in again this soon? Dmcq (talk) 00:01, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

There is no restriction on unregistered users making move proposals. However, I've closed this discussion because 46.7.113.111 proposed the move only four days ago at another venue. It was closed there per WP:SNOW. Please give some time before making the proposal again. --RA (talk) 00:03, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and it makes sense for 99% of cases that unregistered users can propose moves. But for the remaining 1% of cases especially areas rife with persistent and long-term socking, I suggest that the community develops individual rules for individual articles. It's happened before and been successful and minimizing disruption. --HighKing (talk) 11:37, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

This would be a good proposal HighKing. Some would say its a not in the spirit of WP:AGF, but in certain areas it is needed, such as here. Maybe the IP, who seems well versed on wikipedia, would like to create an account. Or maybe disclose thier previuosly held one if they have had one before.... Murry1975 (talk) 12:37, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

I think this topic does need to be discussed fully rather than the constant use of this had been discussed before and then close the discussion. A few truths to go with the lies presented by Τασουλα. This is an RM. I had previously raised an RFC, which was closed by RA within 2 days with out allowing for a full discussion or RFC comment. A discussion such as this deserves more than 2 days. I also do not know who granted RA and Τασουλα the right to close a discussion??? Please do not tie this discussion up in typical Wiki bureaucracy. 46.7.113.111 (talk) 18:52, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Pray, point out what "Lies" I have told. I'm getting pretty sick of your ~~crap~~ attitude. (Edit) considering the dubious nature of your edit history, where you have been prone to disruptive editing and forum shopping on this issue, I shouldn't be taking your attitude seriously. You're just presenting the same old arguments over and over, and it's pretty obvious what you think of the people on this page, including myself. You seem to fail in your understanding of this issue, and that's becoming more and more frustrating to the people who are sparing time to communicate with you here, even if you are presenting no new arguments. You can't seem to admit this. --Τασουλα (talk) 18:55, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Please choose your words wisely and enough with your incivility. Preventing a discussion is just as disruptive. I do not see the harm in discussing this. No new arguments are needed as the old facts are as strong as ever. Closing a discussion before it even gets going is not helpful. A few reasons for change - 1. Google Trends [6]

2. According to the city's Royal Charter of 10 April 1662 the official name is Londonderry. This was reaffirmed in a High Court decision in January 2007 when Derry City Council sought guidance on the procedure for effecting a name change.

3. Londonderry and Derry are both common names for the city. So why does Derry take priority over the official name? even in the lede of the article, not least the article name.

4. There are sources for Derry and there are sources for LondonDerry, as a compromise IMOS came up with Derry for the City and LondonDerry for the county. But as the county name was never in dispute, how is this a compromise?

5. Political representatives for Londonderry voted to change the name of the council. These politicians are elected by the people of the city. right? So the fact that they have yet to change the name of the city would suggest that there is no consensus within a group of elected representatives. So why is that not good enough on wiki?

I do not understand why a fair compromise is constantly muted...instead of a constant throw back to a dated and loose compromise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.113.111 (talk) 19:44, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Ha! Civility? I'm not going to be civil to people who call me "liars". Don't lecture me on civility when all you got was an appropriate response to your baseless accusations, which you still haven't answered for. Attack me like that again, and I won't take kindly too it. I'd like to give you some home truths, but that would probably break AGF in more than one way. All I see are a bunch points you've bought up before which were rejected outright...FOUR days ago. This may shock you, but Wikipedia relies on CONSENSUS - I didn't even have a part in that discussion, I told I was neutral on this issue. All you're doing is bordering on Forum Shopping. Discussion? It's been had. Only four days ago. --Τασουλα (talk) 20:11, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

All valid points I'm afraid. I'm just saying that the current status is not very fair or neutral. Do you accept the points I have made? do you disagree with any of them? I understand that consensus is needed but the history of this talk page shows that the issue comes up time and time again. A new and fair compromise should be found, not muted. Apologies for any offence but I am just annoyed that 2 discussions I have tried to start have been closed within 2 days without enough time for all parties to contribute. That is not fair.46.7.113.111 (talk) 20:25, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

You've missed the point I was making to begin with: I don't care, as it's not of any serious interest to me, my only serious issue is to do with the reason RA closed your thread to begin with. That's all. --Τασουλα (talk) 20:27, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Well I was annoyed because I think it is up to the wiki community to decide whether a motion has a snowball chance, not one just one user. 46.7.113.111 (talk) 20:33, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

The title isn't Derry because of a conflict with the county article. It is Derry because that satisfies WP:COMMONNAME much better than Londonderry. If you wish to change the article title policies then WT:Article titles is the place to try and do that at but this part of the policy has strong support there. It doesn't accomplish anything going on about Londonderry being the official name without changing that policy. Dmcq (talk) 23:01, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Dmcq, but I'm playing catch up. I am just reading this comment by Mo_ainm [7] and he suggested that a compromise had been met in this way. Its very hard to find the details of this decision but how was Derry chosen based on WP:COMMONNAME? Having read WP:SET, I believe a google books search is an appropriate search to determine COMMON NAME and Londonderry returns 2,470,000 where as searching for Derry returns 2,100,000 results. 46.7.113.111 (talk) 17:50, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

@Dmcq, the compromise is mentioned here [8] at WP:IMOS. Nothing to do with common name.46.7.113.111 (talk) 18:34, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

That compromise (and I'm not exactly happy with it) is about titles and references which involve Derry or Londonderry, not about the original articles about the town or county. The title Derry for the town is because of WP:COMMONNAME not because of any comprommise. Dmcq (talk) 14:17, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

I can see at least one editor in the below RFM who has quoted WP:IMOS as a reason for objection. Should their vote be ignored then? Though I'm pretty sure that WP:IMOS applies to the article title here as the proposal [9] clearly states.46.7.113.111 (talk) 23:14, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Simply in reply to this, a more direct comparison of search trends is to compare Derry vs. Londonderry or Derry city vs. Londonderry city. --RA (talk) 19:27, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks RA, but per WP:SET, did you remove wikipedia from your search? Per WP:SET, google books search is a more appropriate search to determine COMMON NAME and Londonderry returns 2,470,000 where as searching for Derry returns 2,100,000 results.46.7.113.111 (talk) 20:14, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

I have answered about the Google books search at the end of the requested move. You should have been surprised by the result you got and checked further. Dmcq (talk) 10:44, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

You should of actually looked before quoting WP:COMMONNAME.46.7.113.111 (talk) 23:14, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: IAR/NAC close -- OP has been blocked as a sock. In theory, I could remove their contribution but all the good faith contributions below would be stranded, so this seems best. Nobody EntYell at me here 14:39, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Request move for WP from Derry to Londonderry. Londonderry is the official name of the city. relisted --Mike Cline (talk) 22:29, 11 October 2012 (UTC) 46.7.113.111 (talk) 16:58, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration

Comment: Strange how an IP starts an RfC here, rather than on Talk:Derry. A cynic might say it was an experienced user trying to act like a naive newbie. A conspiracy theorist might say it was a blocked or topic-banned editor trying to make trouble. Scolaire (talk) 19:55, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, WP:RM says "discussions relating to the naming of Ireland articles... must occur at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration." I'm pretty sure that just means the named articles of Ireland, Republic of Ireland, and Ireland (disambiguation), but I could see how someone would interpret it this way. However, I do think it should be an RM at Talk:Derry instead of an RfC here. --BDD (talk) 20:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

raised here to get the largest audience.

Oppose No grounds have been given for the action besides Londonderry being the official name. That is not a reason in Wikipedia to change. Also I'm pretty certain that Derry is the correct title for the article as per WP:COMMONNAME. Dmcq (talk) 22:07, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Also I'm pretty certain that Londonderry is the correct title for the article as per WP:COMMONNAME.

@Dmcq, please read over your last comment and ask yourself why it would not be best to use the official name of the city in an online encyclopedia... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.113.111 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I have read the policy and I agree with it rather than you. Also Google gives a much higher count for Derry than Londonderry and when you put in Londonderry many of the pages have Derry at the top which doesn't happen when you put in Derry. So I have reviewed my decision and I am sticking with it. Dmcq (talk) 23:19, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Also see Wikipedia:Official names, and remember to sign your posts on talk pages with four tildes (~~~~). --BDD (talk) 23:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Oppose per multiple prior discussions ----Snowded ^TALK 22:15, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Not really good enough a reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.113.111 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Support per multiple prior discussions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.113.111 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Struck per WP:RM ("Nominators should not add a separate support !vote, as the nomination itself qualifies as a !vote.").

Support, as always. — Jon C.^ॐ 12:49, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Oppose. Nothing has changed since the previous discussions. While consensus may of course change, it is unlikely to in the absence of changes to the factors influencing that consensus. In this case the relevant factors are (a) The official name of the settlement, (b) the common name of the settlement, (c) Wikipedia's WP:OFFICIALNAME essay and (d) Wikipedia's WP:COMMMONNAME policy. (a) remains entirely unchanged. (c) and (d) remain unchanged in all relevant ways. That just leaves (b), and no evidence has been presented, nor is any apparent, that "Derry" is no longer the most common name. Thryduulf (talk) 15:03, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- - For the avoidance of any doubt caused by the change of venue, my above recommendation remains unchanged. Thryduulf (talk) 10:41, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see a point when Derry was ever the common name of the city. The city has always been Londonderry. Why an Irish Nationalist POV takes precedence over fact is astounding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.113.111 (talk • contribs) 22:56, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Oppose we don't have a WP:USEONLYOFFICIALNAMES but we do have WP:COMMONNAME and Derry meets that. Valenciano (talk) 16:06, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Londonderry also meets WP:COMMONNAME criteria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.113.111 (talk • contribs) 22:56, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Oppose per longstanding convention at WP:IMOS. Furthermore, articles on Wikipedia are named by the subject's WP:COMMONNAME (not the WP:OFFICIALNAMES). Derry appears to be the far more common name. --RA (talk) 17:49, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Those stats would only make sense if they excluded wikipedia entries and references to Derry and Londonderry of which Derry takes precedence due to WP:IMOS.46.7.113.111 (talk) 16:40, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Oppose - as per previous discussions. Dunno why an IP brings this up here. Hohenloh⁺ 21:23, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Oppose Nothing new here, also IP is quacking like Factocop and is avoiding their troubles restriction with this RfC. Mo ainm~Talk 21:52, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Comment Whether this was proposed by a sock or not, I think we're done here. RashersTierney (talk) 23:13, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Oppose, per WP:IMOS. Obvious sock is obvious. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 08:12, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME - it's what the majority of people living there call it. Also, time to invoke WP:SNOWBALL I'd say. --HighKing (talk) 10:58, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Well if you think that NI has a slim majority in favour of unionism I would assume most in NI would call the city Londonderry. I think people have to remember that IMOS is a guideline and is subject to change and was more than likely written to appease some pov editing. Its a shame that Common name and official name are ignored in favour of Derry. Encyclopedia - really?46.7.113.111 (talk) 16:40, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Oppose per this recent discussion: there is a long-standing convention and multiple attempts to change it have only served to show that it still has consensus. Scolaire (talk) 17:27, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
Move to close per WP:SNOW. --Scolaire (talk) 17:27, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think that's a fair outcome here. Isn't it nice when we can all agree on something? This probably should have been an RM, and it definitely should have occurred at Talk:Derry or Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles. --BDD (talk) 17:38, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

I disagree, actually. Although I thought it strange that an IP should come directly to this page, this is in fact the correct page. It was intended for collaboration on all topics that concern north and south or unionist and nationalist. WT:IMOS is only for discussion of how IMOS represents policy or convention, not the policy or convention itself. Scolaire (talk) 18:10 5 October 2012 (UTC)

I've re-opened the thread because User:46.7.113.111 is insistent on raising the question and allowing it to run its course. --RA (talk) 21:07, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

A few reasons for change

Google Trends [10]
Though having read WP:SET, google books search is a more appropriate search to determine COMMON NAME and Londonderry returns 2,470,000 where as searching for Derry returns 2,100,000 results.
According to the city's Royal Charter of 10 April 1662 the official name is Londonderry. This was reaffirmed in a High Court decision in January 2007 when Derry City Council sought guidance on the procedure for effecting a name change.
Londonderry and Derry are both common names for the city. So why does Derry take priority over the official name? even in the lede of the article, not least the article name.
There are sources for Derry and there are sources for LondonDerry, as a compromise IMOS came up with Derry for the City and LondonDerry for the county, back in 2004 [11]. But as the county name was never in dispute, how is this a compromise?
Political representatives for Londonderry voted to change the name of the council. These politicians are elected by the people of the city. right? So the fact that they have yet to change the name of the city would suggest that there is no consensus within a group of elected representatives. So why is that not good enough on wiki?

RA, please stop closing this. I had previously raised an RFC at the wrong location. I had been advised to raise an RM at this talk page and that is what I am doing. You are not an admin nor are you the wiki police. If you wish to contribute, make a counter argument.46.7.113.111 (talk) 20:14, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

...and RA, a discussion like this deserves to stay open for longer than 36 hrs before you decide to close it again....46.7.113.111 (talk) 20:29, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Speedy close This RFC was speedily closed in the face of near-unanimous opposition (by me, I should note, not by RA). It's very difficult to see this RM as anything but disruptive and bad faith. --BDD (talk) 21:11, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

BDD, the rfc was not open long enough for a full spectrum of users to comment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.113.111 (talk • contribs) 21:27, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but given that the OP is insistent on flogging the horse, better to let it run its course IMO. The alternative, it would appear, is a repeated spawning of the same proposal.

There's no need for anyone to participate any further. Their !votes are recorded above. The RfX will run its course and it will be closed in its own time. --RA (talk) 21:22, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks RA. Though I wish users would present a counter argument if they oppose. According to Google books, Londonderry is the common name. Yet every objection is 'Derry per WP:Common Name'. I'd like users to present actually basis for this objection, though I'll doubt ill get it.46.7.113.111 (talk) 21:27, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Please keep this discussion open. Participation is not mandatory (and if you have previously registered an opinion, just link to it to save time). The 2004 discussion was rather brief and a new discussion might serve Wikipedia well. — AjaxSmack 21:34, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

NOTE - SKEWED voting Votes above were made prior to reasoning for RM request being included, and were for an RFC at another location. This does not seem like a fair voting system.46.7.113.111 (talk) 21:44, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

I have no horse in this fight and don't really care about the article title but am interested in hearing the arguments for each side. Arguments above against a move "per multiple prior discussions", "per longstanding convention", per "nothing has changed since the previous discussions", and "per WP:IMOS - Obvious sock is obvious" &c. are really weak and frankly meaningless to an editor who isn't glued to various guideline pages. Issues raised, such as the fact that "Londonderry" is the official name and a common name (possibly more common), should be addressed. Also cf. Britannica's "Londonderry" [sic] article. — AjaxSmack 21:45, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment I was rather surprised by the Google trends for Londonderry rising faster than Derry and the number of book references so I had a quick look into it. As far as I can see the trends are affected quite a bit by a recent upsurge in references to Londonderry New Hampshire which is going up faster than Derry New Hampshire. As far as the books and trends are concerned a look at the first page of the returns for books for 'Londonderry' is illuminating

Londonderry - New Hampshire

The History of Londonderry, Comprising the Towns of Derry and ... - New Hampshire

Early records of Londonderry, Windham, and Derry, N.H. ... - New Hampshire

The Marquess of Londonderry: aristocracy, power and politics in ... the county and the family name

The Ladies of Londonderry: Women And Political Patronage - the Marquess etc again

Statistical survey of the county of Londonderry: with observations ... - the county

County Londonderry Lands and Families in Northern Ireland: Names ... - the county

County Derry (Londonderry) Ireland, Genealogy and Family History Notes - the county

Irish Genealogical Abstracts from the "Londonderry Journal," 1772-1784 - New Hampshire

Ordnance survey of the county of Londonderry - the county

Compare this to the books returns for 'Derry'

Derry - New Hampshire

Derry, a tale of the revolution - the town

Derry beyond the walls: social and economic aspects of the growth ... - the town

Mackenzie's memorials of the siege of Derry: including his ... - the town

History Of Scandinavia: Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, And Iceland - the author's surname

The annals of Derry - the town

Ethnicity and language change: English in (London)Derry, Northern ...- up for grabs

Docwra's Derry: A Narration of Events in North-West Ulster, 1600-1604 - both town and county

The Suspense Thriller: Films in the Shadow of Alfred Hitchcock - author's surname

The siege of Derry, or, Sufferings of the Protestants: a tale of ... - the town

I think it is fairly obvious that since the numbers are about the same for the books references the preponderance of the references to the town instead of anything else for 'Derry' makes that the common name in the books category. However I must admit I had not realized how messed up the figures would be by the American uses of the name and it would be good to have some better search done to establish good figures. Dmcq (talk) 10:15, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

With regards to Google Trends, comparing like-with-like shows Derry to be by far the more common search term on Google: e.g. Derry vs. Londonderry or Derry city vs. Londonderry city.

For me personally, I would refer to the city as Derry City or Londonderry. Can't think of too many people who would call it Londonderry City. As for google trends, Per WP:COMMONNAME, A search engine may help to collect this data; when using a search engine, restrict the results to pages written in English, and exclude the word "Wikipedia". Its hard to pinpoint the name of the city in trends as for example, searching for Derry would probably pick up hits for Derry City FC or County Derry GAA, the same as Londonderry may pick up Londonderry Port, but at least Google books is sure to exclude Wiki references.46.7.113.111 (talk) 16:41, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

With regard to Google Books, limiting search to the last 100 years (as opposed to all time) reverses the most popular reference, with Derry becoming the more common (1,390,000 to 1,310,000). Reducing the search to the last 50, then 25, and lastly 10 years, further emphasises the greater frequency of Derry over Londonderry (e.g. 220,000 to 145,000). --RA (talk) 10:51, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME doesnt seem to set a time line on the search patterns. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.113.111 (talk • contribs) 16:41, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

I tried removing the New Hampshire ones by putting in -Hampshire -"NH" -America but the terms seemed to have no effect in Google books. Negative search terms seem to make the figures go a bit wild in the web search unfortunately so I can't rely on any response it gives. Dmcq (talk) 11:41, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

@ Dmcq, thanks for looking into this. Of 5 users who opposed motion because of WP:COMMONNAME, you are the only one to actually tried to find proof.46.7.113.111 (talk) 16:41, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Support as both names are common precedence should be given to the legal name in the interests of encyclopaedic accuracy. - dwc lr (talk) 18:48, 10 October 2012 (UTC) - dwc lr (talk) 18:48, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

NOTE 5 users oppose motion quoting WP:COMMONNAME. 4 of whom have yet to produce actual facts to back this up. Only one user has gone to any effort and found that both names are just as common.46.7.113.111 (talk) 23:22, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Please do not go around misquoting things. I said the names were about equally use din books, but if you looked at what the names meant as shown by the lists above then Derry is quite obviously the common name which should be used for this article title. Personally I have thought for a while you are a troll and this sort of stuff just confirms my view so I will not be contributing to this discussion any further. Dmcq (talk) 00:10, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

As one of the 4 users referred to, I should point out that it is the responsibility of those wanting to change the status quo to demonstrate the need for change. At the time I wrote my comment you had not even attempted to do so. Since then you have attempted to provide evidence, but others' analysis of it demonstrates it does not support your claims. Dmcq's evidence shows that "Derry" continues to be the name most commonly used in contemporary and recent sources to refer to the city in Northern Ireland. What the city used to be commonly referred to as, and what name contemporary sources use for sports clubs, counties and settlements in the United States, etc, are all entirely irrelevant to this discussion. I would like to think that Dmcq's assessment of your intentions are incorrect, but the more replies you make the harder assuming good faith gets. If you have not done so recently, I would recommend you compare your actions with the examples given at Wikipedia:Disruptive editing. Thryduulf (talk) 02:49, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

There's Something that has struck me as a little odd in all of this... As so many of you have suggested, the IP here is probably a sock of this Factocop user. After doing a little mooching around, I discovered that Factocop is in fact topic-banned from these kind of articles for three months. If so, why hasn't this IP been investigated and any necessary action taken? IF any is needed?! @ 46.7.113.111 - I don't understand why you're so fervently arguing the same points still. Per consensus, the article is to remain as Derry. The most solid reasoning for this is per WP:COMMONAME, it seems. I don't understand what you hope to achieve by continuing this discussion any further, at least for now. If you think some kind of policy violation has been going on, then you should raise a complaint by other channels, and I think this discussion has been exhausted for now. --Τασουλα (talk) 10:34, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

The sockpuppet and topic ban evasion allegations raised above have been reported at Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement#Factocop. Thryduulf (talk) 16:05, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

@Dmcq, I have no clue why you have got so aggressive and reverted to calling me a troll. I had praised you for helping find information but Your evidence shows that both Derry and Londonderry are common. User:dwc_lr agreed so is that user also a troll? WP:COMMONNAME or WP:SET do not put a time scale on Search Engine Results so if you are going to quote WP:COMMONNAME as your objection, be sure that it actually fits the facts rather than manipulate time lines to make it fit. Both Derry and Londonderry are common. So why Derry should take priority over Londonderry is beyond me. Also you had stated that the article page was named based on WP:COMMONNAME. That was incorrect as this was decided at a prior WP:IMOS discussion. Also your google searches did not remove search results for wikipedia. All in all you have presented facts to support your argument. That is poor, really poor.

Aside from that votes were copied from an RFC at another page, that were not a direct response to the 5 points I made at the opening of the RFM. This is really bad behaviour and shows that a number of users still maintain a battle ground mentality over community discussion. 46.7.113.111 (talk) 17:05, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Google Book Search. I have performed a search minus reference to New Hampshire. Londonderry pulls 1,510,000 results [12], Derry pulls 1,230,000 results [13]. As per WP:COMMON NAME, this article should be titled LONDONDERRY. Or Perhaps a compromise can be found rather than the non-neutral situation that exists at present.46.7.113.111 (talk) 23:51, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- To try and reduce the number of irrelevant results in that set (the third result for "Derry" was a book about Scandinavian history), I've run the following queries with safe search and personal results both turned off and a custom date range of 1 January 1962 to 31 December 2099, anything more than 50 years old doesn't reflect contemporary common usage.
- 1: Londonderry "northern ireland" -New -Hampshire -derry — About 76,100 results [14]
- 2: Derry "northern ireland" -New -Hampshire -londonderry — About 3,360,000 results [15]
  That is such a massive difference that I don't really believe those figures, so I tried again:
- 3: "Londonderry" "northern ireland" -New -Hampshire -derry — About 76,000 results [16]
- 4: "Derry" "northern ireland" -New -Hampshire -Londonderry — About 50,800 results [17]
  Well that is closer to believable, but looking at the subjects and previews on the first few pages of each I noticed several things:
  - Both searches were including uses such as "(London)Derry" and "Derry/Londonderry", which don't help us here at all
  - A large number of results for search 3 were about the county, which doesn't establish anything about the naming of the city.
  - Several of the results for search 3 were about the Marquess of Londonderry, not the city. The title is always "Londonderry" never "Derry" (cf. Devon (county) / Duke of Devonshire). So I tried again:
- 5: "Londonderry" "northern ireland" city -New -Hampshire -derry -"county londonderry" -marquess — About 11,700 results [18]
- 6: "Derry" "northern ireland" city -New -Hampshire -londonderry -"county derry" -marquess — About 13,200 results [19]
  That is a much bigger reduction in raw hit counts than I was expecting, but the difference between the two looks plausible. It's clear though that the exclusions aren't working quite as intended as the first hit on search 5 is County Londonderry Lands and Families in Northern Ireland, the hits for the Marquess have seemingly gone though. Both searches still return hits for "(London)Derry", etc. although perhaps slightly more for search 5.
  
  My next thought was ngrams, which are case sensitive searches on exact strings but which lack context. All ngram searches are over the period 1962-2008 (Google wont go any later).
- 7: Londonderry,Derry [20] — "Derry" is clearly the more popular here, having overtaken "Londonderry" in about 1980. The gap has narrowed from a peak in about 1999 though. Without context though this isn't hugely meaningful.
- 8: County Londonderry,County Derry [21] — This graph is more complex, but other than in 1999 "County Londonderry" has been slightly or significantly more used since 1978 and pre 1966, This isn't definitive of course, but it does suggest that relatively more of the references to "Londonderry" will be for the county rather than the city than will be for "Derry".
- 9: Londonderry city,Londonderry City,Derry city,Derry City [22] — this might be the most definitive of all the searches. Since 1968 "Derry City"+"Derry city" has been massively more common than "Londonderry City"+"Londonderry city", although the gap was narrowing. Out of interest, I extended the range back to 1900 [23] and it becomes even clearer - since about 1905 one of "Derry city" or "Derry City" been the most common, usually by some significant margin, other than during the single year 1961 [24] when "Londonderry City" was very slightly ahead.
  So, putting all these statistics together with the results of the book search, it seems that yet again the evidence is firmly for "Derry" being the most common name for the city, so there really wasn't any need to get this reopened yet again. Thryduulf (talk) 02:19, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

~~Hi Thryduulf, per WP:SET, did you remove instances referencing Wikipedia in your Ngram searches? Here in lies the problem. I am looking at your research(well done) and thinking that both Derry and Londonderry seem equally as common. Also WP:COMMONNAME does not designate a timeline or scale, so time definite searches are irrelevant if quoting WP:COMMONNAME as an objection. This was reopened because the article had been named based on a compromise not a vote. And though 5 users had quoted COMMON NAME as their objection, none of them had actually looked prior to their objection, and I'm assuming you did not just cut and paste your research from another discussion. Its obvious both names are common. So a fair compromise should be found.46.7.113.111 (talk) 07:51, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Ngrams are occurrences in Google Books so the influence of Wikipedia will be slight (and non-existent prior to 2001), but you cannot specify any context with ngram searches. While WP:COMMONNAME doesn't explicitly specify a date range, are you seriously suggesting that works over 50 years old have any relevance on what the common name is today!?

I'm completely failing to understand how you can look at the research above and honestly say that "Derry" and "Londonderry" are equally as common when referring to the city! Seriously go back and read what I have actually written, not just the numbers and not what you want me to have written. Londonderry isn't uncommon but it is significantly less common than Derry. Compromise isn't possible for technical reasons - the article must be at one name and the other can only be a redirect, so we use whichever is the most common as the title - in this case "Derry".

As for copying of votes, that's a compeltely false accusation (I don't recall having previously commented on any naming discussion for this city). What I said was that there was no evidence that the common name had changed and so no reason to move the article. As stated previously, it is up to those wanting to change the status quo (in any discussion) to show that there is a need or benefit in doing so, and not only have you failed to do this, those arguing for the status quo have repeatedly demonstrated that the evidence supports "Derry" as the most common name.

To avoid wasting any more time, I shall not comment further unless you or anyone else presents any new evidence. Thryduulf (talk) 10:32, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I didnt accuse you of copying votes. But I raised the RFM here [25], yet there are 20 odd comments prior to this date and not in response to the 6 supporting points I had made. Do you see?

5 Users including yourself opposed the motion as per WP:COMMON NAME so I am assuming that you have read it. But lets look at it anyway: The most common name for a subject,[3] as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources, is often used as a title because it is recognizable and natural. and Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. So the most common name within reliable sources. OK so lets look at google books and follow these instructions again per WP:COMMON NAME - When using Google, generally a search of Google Books and News Archive should be defaulted to before a web search, as they concentrate reliable sources (exclude works from Books, LLC when searching Google Books)) SO searching Derry in google books returns 971k results [26], and searching Londonderry returns 1,130,000 results [27]. So per WP:COMMON NAME, Londonderry is more common and Derry. You have quoted WP:COMMON NAME as your reason for objection, but you did not follow the search criteria.

User:AjaxSmack, an univolved editor also noted here [28] that the objections were rather poor, including 4 cases referring to per multiple prior discussions, 2 cases of sock puppetry accusations and 2 referring to per longstanding convention at WP:IMOS. but according to Dmcq here [29], WP:IMOS doesnt apply here. Not to mention Dmcq and his potty' mouth here [30] calling me a troll.

All in all, the opposition remarks are weak and lazy. I have shown that Londonderry is the common name as explicitly laid out in the criteria at WP:COMMON NAME.46.7.113.111 (talk) 17:31, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

The arguments for Derry have always been flimsily based and using Google is pointless in so many ways. For example at Thryduulf, the figures you post should actually be closer than you find. No offence but your search parameters shows a great naivety in regards to Irish place names. There are at least 16 townlands in Ireland called "Derry" and one called "Londonderry", and the term "Derry" is a component in around 300 Northern Irish townlands alone never mind the whole island - so your search parameters are going to give a disproportionate result. Want to see just how many places contain the term "derry" in it in Northern Ireland alone? Just go here, type in "derry" and click "Middle" and then search and just see how common it is in place names. Then you need to take into account the personal bias' of the authors especially Irish ones considering that "Derry" is only the official name of the city in the Republic where many of those Irish authors come from. Google for this subject is pointless. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:51, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Must point out however it's very coincidental that any place with a name strongly linked to the British monarchy or the seat of British rule (London) has been renamed by nationalists: Queen's County, King's County, Queenstown, Kingstown, Maryborough, Philipstown, as well as the Free State/Republic of Ireland having Doire/Derry as their official name for Londonderry - yet not renaming many other places of English origin which coincidentally as far as I am aware have no component in them that can be linked to the British monarchy or London. Very coincidental. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:26, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Just to add - I propose closing this request as no consensus for move as it's pointless and was initiated by an apparent sock-puppet of Factocop. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:54, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Seems the proof and reasoning for a change that is fair has been presented but has been ignored and rebuffed by flimsily based opposition by age old nationalist pov that thrives on wikipedia. I've learned a valuable lesson. When faced with a discussion, state opposition for no reason then leave said topic stating I'm not going to waste anymore time here. The good thing to come from this is that opposition will have to think of another reason now other than WP:COMMON NAME for when this comes up again in the future as I have shown Londonderry is equally common a name. As for you Mabuska, think again if you think I am factocop, or anyone else. Just a concerned editor at the state of Northern Ireland wikipedia pages and the bias that is sweeping them.46.7.113.111 (talk) 17:18, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

You sure don't sound like him. Ah well I'll leave that to the sock invrstigation. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:31, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Did you actually look at the results back from the searches for Londonderry and Derry like Thryduulf and I did? All those other Derry's don't have books written about them except for the one in New Hampshire. If you would just peruse the first couple of pages of returns for those searches you'll see the case is pretty clear that in this context Londonderry really is the common name for the county and Derry really is the common name for the city by quite a large margin. I'm sure it is interesting the natives changed the names from Kings and Queens whatever after independence, I wonder if the Abos in Australia will ever rename all the Macquarie bays ports lakes etc, but the coincidence you mentioned is irrelevant to the common name policy. Dmcq (talk) 18:03, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

The difference between the research I had performed and the research performed by Dmcq and Thryduulf, is that the search patterns I used were in line with WP:Common Name. Let's be honest Dmcq, you had objected before you had even down any research. That is just POV. Both names are common, and efforts should be made to make Londonderrys use in Wikipedia more common for the sake of neutrality. Not today it seems.46.7.113.111 (talk) 19:06, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

If your argument is now that both names are common, and it's just a case that you object to the chosen name, I think we're done since the consensus (recently tested) hasn't changed. Perhaps in time it will. Personally, even though I voted Oppose on the poll, I wish Wikipedia was better software to handle issues where articles *need* to be at multiple locations. --HighKing (talk) 22:19, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Well HighKing, your objection was based on WP:COMMONNAME and no new argument has been put forward. I have shown that by the criteria laid put in WP:COMMON NAME that Londonderry is more common. Other users believe that Derry is more common. I am saying that both seem to be equally common, yet more weight is given to Derry as an article title. This topic will continue to crop up until a fair outcome is found.46.7.113.111 (talk) 23:28, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

You've said above that *both* names are common. It's useless to try to show that one name is *more* common that the other when we're dealing with an imperfect tool such as Google, and when the results are so close depending on the parameters. So yes, no *new* argument has been put forward - just the old argument that one name is more common than the other, which is impossible to prove. So it comes down to consensus. That hasn't changed. And that *is* fair, despite what you might think. I'm intimately familiar with the notion of "fairness" on Wikipedia - there's no such thing. A lot of the same issues have cropped up at other Ireland-related naming discussions and at other articles, and consensus is the mechanism used to decide these matters. --HighKing (talk) 12:05, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Dmcq I did look at them and I still disregard using Google for this matter especially when using selective search parameters as there are issues with whatever we decide to search for. Other things we have to watch out for are the diocese of Derry and anything associated with it such as the deanery etc. and Derry City F.C. and Derry City Council. Google for this is flawed. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:37, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I did a search for books with just Derry and Londonderry and actually looked at the total numbers and the first couple of pages of the returns and the result seemed quite conclusive and overwhelming to me. I checked each entry carefully for what it actually referred to. What did you do that you got the impression there was some actual question still about the business? Are you just dismissing even the idea of checking because you believe the whole business is flawed? Dmcq (talk) 15:43, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I checked the evolution of the city's website on the Wayback Machine. Back in 2000, they were, "The City of Londonderry also known as Derry."[31] The site went down for almost a year. When it came back up in 2001, this was revised to, "Derry is a city like no other."[32] The current version is also pretty clear that city's name is simply "Derry." Kauffner (talk) 16:59, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I have re-read the entire discussion page above and did a sort of tally system of users who have commented on the name dispute. Those for a change to Londonderry total 24, those against total 19.

24 For:

C. 22468
GoodDay
FergusM1970
Slakelives
Dave-o-dagenham
JonC
Mabuska
Cbowsie
Thedaveformula
Bunters196
Mooretwin
Clyde1998
dwc lr
Mistress Selina Kyle
CodSaveTheQueen (Factocop)
109.255.108.147
89.242.109.42
86.129.5.187
78.146.88.106
86.182.215.182
194.72.9.24
124.197.15.138
203.184.41.226
+ myself

20 Against:

Snowded
★KEYS★
Mo ainm
Bjmullan
HighKing
Lugnad
Murry1975
NorthernCounties
Nutthida
2 lines of K303
Fmph
Τασουλα
Dmcq
Thryduulf
Valenciano
RA
Hohenloh
RashersTierney
Kauffner
doopa

That would suggest to me that there is consensus for change only for each user for a change facing the same old weak reasoning of opposition, As per previous discussion, as per WP:IMOS, as per WP:COMMON NAME.

Also I have followed WP:COMMON NAME and WP:SET explicitly and found that Londonderry is more common than Derry in a google book search. The disappointing thing is that a huge number of users opposing this motion have not actually read fully WP:COMMON NAME, and so don't seem to understand it. Also a note that Snowded, not to pick on you sir, but you are beginning to sound like a broken record. The number of times you have quoted as per previous discussion is amazing.

User:Mistress Selina Kyle puts it best: there clearly is no real agreement, just the problem of Wikipedia:Systemic bias where the majority of the people watching the article feel very strongly about it - there's never going to be a final agreement one way the other the same way there is not any in real life, and Wikipedia shouldn't try claim false consensus based over who is around at the time to get a "consensus" fixed in stone (and then say, but, "you missed the consensus! we agreed!" than an accurate representation of people at large. 46.7.113.111 (talk) 19:20, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

If you remove the anon IP addresses and socks from your "For" list, the actual numbers are 14 For, and 19 Against. We normally wouldn't count socks and anon IPs for contentious moves, based on the history of socking in this area. Actually, I don't know why I just bothered to reply and to format your response. You're just not listening and no matter what's said, you're not going to accept a situation you don't like. I'm not contributing to this anymore. Good luck. --HighKing (talk) 19:29, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Obviously CodSaveTheQueen is a sock of Factocop, but Factocop was unblocked. Who are the other socks? Apologies but I am not familiar with the policy that says to ignore IP votes/comments. I find it hard to believe that none of the against accounts are socks.

I've made the point that everytime someone questions this consensus they are muted by the same reasoning: As per previous discussion, as per WP:IMOS, as per WP:COMMON NAME. We can not continue to refer to a dated bogus consensus when the issue seems to be a regular discussion. A new fair compromise should be found. I'll admit, I don't like it, but I've got reasoning to back the proposed change. Opposition reasoning including your own is very weak and based on political bias.46.7.113.111 (talk) 19:42, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Dated Bogus Consensus? From last week? And now we're name-calling are we? I suppose everyone who opposes your view is a southern Taig with Cro-Magnon intelligence? (See where this goes?) Seriously, someone roll this discussion up. --HighKing (talk) 20:06, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

HighKing, please remain Civil. I have not called you anything. I have shown that on this discussion page, more people are for the change than against. I have also shown that as per WP:COMMON NAME, Londonderry is more common. Its not a case of not liking the current standing, though I dont. its a case that I and many others have yet to see why this current title has stood for so long based on an initial compromise. This is a community right? so why not help propose a solution that will suit all, rather than things are never going to change so lump it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.113.111 (talk) 20:34, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

The article has remained at the current title because it (and the wider convention at WP:DERRY) accords with policy and has the support of the community. It's not that things are never going to change. It's that a consensus of people see the current title of this article (and balance between views across articles) as being a balanced, neutral and fair way of representing the topic.

You cite WP:COMMONNAME (and Derry fits that) but see WP:MOSAT and consider WP:DERRY also. Then look at the move log for this page and consider WP:TITLECHANGES:

"Changing one controversial title to another is strongly discouraged. If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed. If it has never been stable, or it has been unstable for a long time, and no consensus can be reached on what the title should be, default to the title used by the first major contributor after the article ceased to be a stub."

That paragraph was adopted especially to stop move warring and is based on the Arbitration Committee's decision in the Jguk case. WP:TITLECHANGES continues:

Debating controversial titles is often unproductive, and there are many other ways to help improve Wikipedia.

--RA (talk) 22:08, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I understand WP:DERRY and the compromise agreed there, but pardon me but County Derry has never existed ever, ever in Ireland. I am not the first to mention this. So how this is a fair trade off is beyond me, that and it was agreed 8 years ago. And has the compromise worked? From what I can see there was no clear reason to the call the article Derry in the first place. There still seems to be a lot of editing on this topic. How about we use Londonderry for the next 8 years then? Londonderry is the official name of the city, and is only controversial by the fact that many can not except this. Londonderry also meets WP:COMMON NAME. This will wrangle on until a compromise is found. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.113.111 (talk) 22:31, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

RA, given that the article has never been stable should we just revert back to original title ie. Londonderry? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.113.111 (talk) 22:46, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I think I could support pointing Londonderry at the Londonderry (disambiguation) page or to County Londonderry rather than redirecting to Derry, it refers to County Londonderry more often than it does to the city. Dmcq (talk) 10:51, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I would support this only if Derry also went to a dab page. Why just Londonderry? — Jon C.^ॐ 11:23, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

See above where I itemized the first page of returns for a Google book search on Londonderry and Derry. Out of 10 4 for Londonderry were the county and 4 were Londonderry in New Hampshire and 2 for the Marquess so either the county or a disambiguations sees reasonable to me. For Derry 5 were the city and two were the city or county, 2 were author's names and 1 was New Hampshire, since overall the Londonderry and Derry usages were similar that shows Derry is the common name for the city. You can try doing more extensive searches if you like and check it out yourself but you do need to check a reasonable proportion of entries carefully. Dmcq (talk) 11:55, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Dmcq, did you not look at the google book search I had performed? I had removed instances of County, New Hampshire and per WP:COMMON NAME and WP:SET removed authors LLC and Books, and Londonderry came up as more common. Your point doesnt make sense - since overall the Londonderry and Derry usages were similar that shows Derry is the common name for the city. That doesnt make sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.113.111 (talk) 17:24, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

This was emphasised above and a number of people have said it but I'll explain it yet again to you for the sake of others reading what you say. The figures from Google are not any good when you start sticking in qualifiers like that, you need to check the first few pages to see what is actually being found. For instance if you do a Google web search of Londonderry and try and exclude county the numbers triple. If you do a book search the numbers halve - but four entries of the ten on the first page returned are for the county even though '-county' is specified. They even say county in the title so one would have thought it could exclude them when returning them even if the figures were wrong. Dmcq (talk) 17:48, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

So you are saying that there is no reliable way to prove WP:COMMON NAME, am I right? If so why did you oppose this motion as per WP:COMMON NAME? I have followed the criteria of WP:COMMON NAME and WP:SET and found that Londonderry is more common. If there is an issue with the search criteria laid out at WP:COMMON NAME, then I suggest you start there if you wish to change policy.46.7.113.111 (talk) 21:56, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I guess a bit about Google results might be helpful here. See WP:SET#What a search test can do, and what it can't especially the last line which should be emphasised more "A search engine test cannot help you avoid the work of interpreting your results and deciding what they really show. Appearance in an index alone is not usually proof of anything.". It also details various problems with the numbers, basically keep the search extremely simple and look carefully at the results. Search engines were not designed for this purpose, Google returns what they think you want not what you specify and their figures are estimates. That does not mean they cannot help, just that a combination of putting in complex queries and not looking at what comes back can produce figures that are totally useless. It is a pity checks like these can't be totally automated but that's how it is and naive use can be very misleading. What might be useful for someone who is not au fait with the problems of a complex search is asking for help from an uninvolved person who has some expertise at for example the Wikipedia help desk. Dmcq (talk) 11:09, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

There are some tools that Google provides that provide information closer to what we frequently search for.

Google Ngrams, for example, will compare the frequency of use of phrases in a corpus of books over time: Derry vs. Londonderry. Google Trends will compare the frequency of use of phrases in the searches people perform on Google over time (i.e. what people type into Google, as opposed to what they get out): Derry vs. Londonderry.

Both of these tools provide information that is closer to what we are looking for (when we are looking for a WP:COMMONNAME) than the supposed number of search results that come back in the Google search engine. --RA (talk) 15:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

These tools don't get rid of the problem of finding out what the references actually reference in cases like this where a name can mean any number of things. You really do have to get your hands dirty actually looking at what Google is counting. The trends tool though is very useful as a first stop because you get a quick overview of the main uses of a name. I don't use ngrams except in very simple cases though or for fun. Dmcq (talk) 21:13, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Only thing is that Ngrams doesnt seem to go back further than 1960, or at least when I use it. And also WP:COMMONNAME is per the most frequently used term within reliable sources, and I am pretty sure there are reliable sources that were published before 1960. It does seem that the goal posts are constantly moving. If 'Derry' is found to be more common, then google searches are deemed reliable. When Londonderry is found to be more common, google can not be trusted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.113.111 (talk • contribs)

It's not a case of moving goal posts or of bias - the google results that have been evaluated by humans are reliable, the ones that have not are not. The only results to show Londonderry as the most common are the ones which have not been humanly evaluated to discount the irrelevant results.

Regarding Ngrams, they do go back before 1960 but I deliberately restricted the searches I was doing to the last 50 years as we are attempting to determine the present most common usage, not what was most common 100 years ago or which name was most common on average. As also explicitly noted several times, Ngrams are not reliable sources on their own to answer this sort of question as they include all uses of the word/phrase with no means to check the context. They can though, in certain circumstances, help interpret other results - for example the ones above indicate that the proportion of "Londonderry" results referring to the county is greater than the proportion of "Derry" results referring to the county. Thryduulf (talk) 01:58, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

The searches I had performed had been human verified by me(anon IP). Users need to look beyond 1st page of results and see what is being pulled back in the 2nd, the 3rd, the 4th pages to get a better picture rather than a snapshot. From the results drawn up by Dmcq, I noticed that the smoothing had been set to 3 in the Ngrams search. Change that to 0, and you will see that Londonderry was common as recently as 2005. And given the the Ngrams search only goes up to 2008, then is an equal chance that Londonderry is more common post 2008. I will state again that WP:COMMON NAME does not request time line criteria in searches only that reliable sources are used. If you wish to use WP:COMMON NAME as an oppostion based on a time specific search to suit your opposition, I suggest you aim to try and change policy at the policy page, not make it up as you go along here.Dubs boy (talk) 09:20, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

As this topic is on the verge of closing, please note that on this talk page 24 users are for the change, 19 against. Dubs boy (talk) 10:33, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Another couple of misstatements or misdirections by you. On the ngrams you again just use the words without noting what they refer to. Try a book search on Londonderry "Northern Ireland" compared to Derry "Northern Ireland" like RA did and look at those counts if you can't be bothered to check the entries, this overstates the difference and still doesn't show the difference between the county and city but hopefully you get the idea. There is no point in counting instances of Londonderry in New Hampshire as contributing to a case for changing the title. We only count people engaged in the discussion and there is a very good reason for this. Besides the ones you counted wrong there is the basic problem with what you did that only people who think the title should be Londonderry start such discussions on this page. We have no counts of people who would have come to this page if the title was Londonderry complaining that the title should be Derry. Dmcq (talk) 11:28, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Are you saying that if the article were called Londonderry that no editors would attempt to change it to Derry? honestly? In that search for Derry Northern Ireland the first page has 4 instances of London(Derry). Says it all. From what I can see there are only 5 or 6 editors involved in this discussion. When you think 8 users opposed as per IMOS, as per same old argument, as per nothing has changed since last discussion, can you really include those users?. I have noted that on this talk page more users have expressed a need for change. That is a fact. Like I said the goal posts constantly move. When Londonderry is more common, google isnt reliable. The Ngrams only goes up to 2008 so hardly reliable. But hey, I give up now. You have worn me down.

What I said was that if the name was Londonderry then a person wanting to change to Derry would have a load more people added if they used your method. As it is the name is Derry and you added a load who wanted to change it to Londonderry. That is the whole point of why counting outside of the request to move is wrong. It is people who see a problem who go to the talk page not those who are okay with things but a request to move brings along a wider audience since a decision has to be made.

As to your counts of Derry "Northern Ireland" you should have checked which references to Londonderry were to the county rather than the town. In that first page besides the ones which just referred to Derry I got:

County Londonderry Lands and Families in Northern Ireland - talks about the county and refers to the city as Derry city.

Planning Derry: Planning and Politics in Northern Ireland - refers to the city and talks about the Londonderry area

County Derry (Londonderry) Ireland, Genealogy and Family History Notes - Londonderry refers to the county

Ethnicity and language change: English in (London)Derry, Northern.. - refers to the county area

and there was one which referred to the city as Londonderry: "COUNTY DERRY: DERRY/LONDONDERRY pop 83,700 Northern Ireland's second city comes as a pleasant surprise to many visitors. Derry (or Londonderry; see the boxed text, p637) may not be the prettiest of cities".

As I said before the Google ngrams figures include New Hampshire and the Marquess and various authors and other people and places and are not useful for saying what the common name for the city is. Dmcq (talk) 14:12, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

User:Mistress Selina Kyle puts it best:

there clearly is no real agreement, just the problem of Wikipedia:Systemic bias where the majority of the people watching the article feel very strongly about it - there's never going to be a final agreement one way the other the same way there is not any in real life, and Wikipedia shouldn't try claim false consensus based over who is around at the time to get a "consensus" fixed in stone (and then say, but, "you missed the consensus! we agreed!" than an accurate representation of people at large.

Consensus should not ignore the fact that a large number of users are not happy, and some movement should be made to fix this.

As part of the original compromise back in 2004 [33] it mentions that Londonderry would be the opening. What changed?Dubs boy (talk) 13:22, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Stability and original title

46.7.113.111 (talk) above writes "given that the article has never been stable should we just revert back to original title ie. Londonderry?", but the facts support neither of these assertions: The article was created on 1 January 2002 at the title Derry [34]. The oldest locatable revision of the "Londonderry" title is now in the history of Londonderry (disambiguation) and dates from 2 March 2004 [35] (there should be a revision from 22 February 2004, but I can't find it in any page history or user:Lord Emsworth's contribution history).

With the exception of undiscussed moves and two periods of move warring by anonymous users the article has been stable at the Derry title. The table below details the total time the article has been located at each of the 5 titles it has had:

	Total time at location
Name	Hours and minutes	Human units
Derry	94468:00	10.78 years
Londonderry	10:26	10 hours 26 minutes
'Derry	00:15	15 minutes
Londonderry 4 ever	00:05	5 minutes
Londonderry/Derry	00:07	7 minutes

I have produced a table itemising each page move to generate the above figures. For reasons of space I've put that table at Talk:Derry/History of moves but discussion about it should happen here. Thryduulf (talk) 12:47, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

---> 'Derry <--- !? Oh well these numbers, how should I put it...clearly speak for themselves. --Τασουλα (talk) 17:35, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Well WP:Derry was introduced 8 years ago so that would explain the 10 years. But if, as you say the page was so stable, why was WP:Derry introduced in the first place?46.7.113.111 (talk) 17:40, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Stable because it wasn't constantly changed without a consensus being reached first, I would hazard a guess...the actual act of changing the articles title. --Τασουλα (talk) 17:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

The article was stable at Derry, with no moves at all, between 1 January 2002 and 22 February 2004. There was a move on 22 February 2004 that was reverted after less than a minute, and a sequence of moves on 2 March 2004. The proposal for what became WP:DERRY was made on 3 March 2004. Not one of the page moves was discussed beforehand. Thryduulf (talk) 10:13, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

If there's no complete way of 100% proving which name is more common, or if both fit common name, then the article being named Derry for such a long time is the strongest reason for it to remain at its current title. --Τασουλα (talk) 16:03, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

It's a reason which can be taken into consideration by editors forming a consensus. It is consensus though that ultimately dictates content including article titles. --HighKing (talk) 16:45, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Ya, I mean that is my consensus stance :) --Τασουλα (talk) 16:51, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Well I have shown above that on this talk page 24 users have expressed a wish to change the article title against 19 opposed. So there is consensus to change. It does appear that every time an there is an expression for change, it is quickly muted. Doesn't seem in keeping with the wiki ethos.46.7.113.111 (talk) 18:55, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

{od}Consensus doesnt mean the counting of votes or opinions. Also the 24, include multiple editors who are the same, not logged in or socking. But as I have stated consensus isnt counting how many back something, read up on it sometime. Murry1975 (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I am not familiar with all the users, but I find it hard to believe that socking is only on one side. I understand that consensus isnt just numbers, but at the same time you still felt the need to vote so obviously numbers count to an extent. But reading WP:CONSENSUS:

Consensus refers to the primary way decisions are made on Wikipedia, and it is accepted as the best method to achieve our goals. Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity (which, although an ideal result, is not always achievable); nor is it the result of a vote. Decision-making involves an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's norms. I can't see how any effort has been made to include the concerns of many users who wish to see Londonderry equally weighted as Derry.46.7.113.111 (talk) 19:28, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

As I and others explained above, it is not technically possible to treat the two names equally. For technical reasons one must be an article and the other a redirect. Thryduulf (talk) 19:51, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I would of thought a good start would be to start with Londonderry as the opening in the lede.46.7.113.111 (talk) 20:13, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

While technically possible, that goes completely against the manual of style and will as such be constantly corrected by editors - right from the very beginning of WP:DERRY it was recognised that this was not a workable solution. Take a look at the history of the article and this talk to see how unstable it would be and all the prior discussions. Regardless of which name is chosen, the lead and title must match - after all the most common name does not change in the between the title and lead paragraph. Thryduulf (talk) 01:44, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Well both names seem equally common as highlighted a hundred times, and as part of the original compromise back in 2004 [36] it mentions that Londonderry would be the opening. And as the page is permanently locked, it would be pretty difficult to make any edits, so I think as a compromise and as outlined in WP:Consensus, some effort should be made by the opposing party(minority) to make room for this edit. And I don't see why Article title and opening word in lede can not be different. Dubs boy (talk) 09:03, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I've requested the account User:Dubs boy be blocked and that this tread be closed. --RA (talk) 09:46, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Renaming to Londonderry really is a non-starter under the common=-name policy which has extremely firm support. The only other real alternative would be to use a title like Derry/Londonderry or London(Derry). The article titles policy is also against slash names like Falklands/Malvinas but it may be possible to get a special exemption for this article as the slash type alternative has been used so often. I can't say I'm keen on that myself but I wouldn't lose an lot of sleep over it. Dmcq (talk) 16:03, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I would never object to it being called Derry/Londonderry or Londonderry/Derry. Simply changing it to Londonderry...no. No clear common name fine, but stability is important. Sadly we don't have a delightful compromise like this rather delicious one >D --Τασουλα (talk) 16:08, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

This would be so much easier if the Wikipedia software had a mechanism to deal with articles that belong at the same title. Dab pages only go so far, and only for different articles that vie for the same title. --HighKing (talk) 16:49, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

It's not a matter of software mechanisms - no two articles ever belong at the same title. Imagine if there were five different articles entitled Romance! How, if you weren't clicking wikilinks, could you ever find the article you were looking for? And even if you could do that, what help would it be for a single article, such as Derry, that "belongs" at more than one title. In fact, there is a simple mechanism for dealing with that - it's called a redirect. Scolaire (talk) 19:13, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Surely the best solution would be to have a Derry article and a nearly identical Londonderry one, relying on the good sense of WP editors to keep them as closely aligned as possible? As a native I always use one of those terms for the city and the county, but entirely respect the right of others to use a different term for both. Unless Wikipedia tells us that it can't afford the extra few kilobytes of data that it would cost to store substantially duplicated articles with different titles, that is the conflict-free way forward. Brocach (talk) 21:06, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

No that would be counted as a WP:POVFORK and they are very much frowned upon. Dmcq (talk) 21:56, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Not always; per WP:POVFORK "Different articles can be legitimately created on subjects which themselves represent points of view, as long as the title clearly indicates what its subject is, the point-of-view subject is presented neutrally, and each article cross-references articles on other appropriate points of view." I am confident that enough sensible contributors are around to ensure that neither the Derry nor the Londonderry article would become a battleground. Brocach (talk) 22:39, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

That refers to things like the pro and anti sides of the abortion debate can be dealt with in separate articles as well as an article about the debate itself. The only equivalent here is the article about the Derry Londonderry name dispute. Dmcq (talk) 23:38, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

The troll has been blocked but we are still all being trolled. Any objections to closing this thread? --RA (talk) 22:04, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Yep, this thread deals with a fairly heavily contended but, I think, solvable issue and I'd prefer that space be kept open for calm debate rather than closed for fear of trolling. Brocach (talk) 22:39, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

*Sniff* I'm not being trolled... --Τασουλα (talk) 22:35, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

No objections to closing this thread. Personally I'd have done it when closing the RM - I only used a section header as the section above was getting rather long. I never intended it to be a separate discussion (I'd have used a L2 header in that case). Thryduulf (talk) 22:41, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Then maybe the best thing would be to move the Template:RM bottom to below this and have the whole thing closed as a single discussion. Scolaire (talk) 10:38, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, as the above archives discussion is pretty much entwined with this one... in fact, much of what was discussed anew was pretty much a repeat of the previous discussion.--Τασουλα (talk) 11:00, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Support a move to Smiley-Town. — Jon C.^ॐ 11:02, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Now lets get to work re-painting all the murals in the city with scenes of people holding-hands and dancing. (OK, off-topic, I know, I'm about to create a thread dealing with images in the article) --Τασουλα (talk) 11:07, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

That won't bring in the tourists! Come on we need a few more depressing bits of history to put it on the world stage, perhaps with some animatronics too and it'll be world class. ;-) Dmcq (talk) 13:45, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

It is *the* place to go for gritty political murals...(just raised a comment on the Murals in Northern Ireland page, which I think is a pretty good one, anyone would like to take a look XD) --Τασουλα (talk) 18:13, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.