Talk:Derek and the Dominos/Archive 1

Archive 1

NPOV

Is this sentence a bit overly superlative? "They were a blues-rock band that demonstrated virtuosity at its finest, showing some of Clapton's very finest work." For the third sentence of an article, it might be good to have some more specific description of the group's work. Possibly if we want to keep this basic idea, we could replace an opinion with a fact, like how many records they have sold or how high Layla came in on a rock poll like Rolling Stone. Or put the opinion in the mouth of a credible rock critic, who might have an interesting turn of phrase as well.

To be honest, this is a decently written article but after reading 2 books on this very band, I had to delete out the idea that Derek and the Dominos was a "superband" or "supergroup". This was precisely what Eric Clapton wanted to avoid. He was tired of his experiences in Cream. He was tired of his experiences with Blind Faith. After reading these books I read quotes from Clapton stating he absolutely did not want to be in another supergroup. Besides there was no other player in the band of Eric Clapton as well known as himself. Duane Allman? He came and went from the actual band so you count the vast majority of the time Derek and the Dominos existed that he wasn't even there. Even if you accept him as a full-fledged member, The Allman Brothers were only starting to receive fame. Alman Bros' Fillmore East album had only been out in late 1969. At any rate, my sources are both, Layla and other Assorted Love Songs by Derek and the Dominos (author is Jan Reid) and Crossroads: The Life and Music of Eric Clapton (author is Michael Schumacher). Let me know if you want the pages from these books that show that Clapton made clear he was NOT in a supergroup and was extremely tired of such experiences. V Schauf (talk) 06:50, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Words and phrases like superb, powerful, sublime, "some of his best," and "time has only added to their fame" occur in the main body of the article, but in a field like music, aesthetics is notoriously subjective, so some of that's to be expected.Edonovan 19:31, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd object only to the jingle-jangle of "finest...finest". Perhaps a more incisive adjective describing the specific kind of fine could be substituted for each "finest".. My larger problem is with this:

"...to nurse a heroin addiction due to his unrequited and intense romantic longing...". Don't we know yet that addictions, like alcoholism, aren't "due to" disappointed love: she drove him to drink..." etc etc? A better phrase should be easy to find. --Wetman 04:32, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Unrequited love?

"Clapton's unrequited love for Pattie Boyd who was married to his best friend George Harrison. Clapton was seeing Pattie secretly at the time and Whitlock was dating her sister. It was not until much later that the affair was open;". It sounds as if the love was requited.--Henrygb 18:40, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

It was "requited" years AFTER the album came out. At the time the album was made, there were no plans by either Boyd or Clapton to get together. V Schauf (talk) 15:56, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

citations

This article is in desperate need of some references! This would not be considered encyclopedia quality for any topic, but it's especially bad here, since Clapton is one of the most rumored-about musical artists.

Referenced somewhat thoroughly but will keep referencing to help reduce the POV. - Patman2648 05:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Eric and the Dynamos or Derek and the Dynamics?

There are two conflicting provisional names for the band from different sources. The wikipedian source provided by User:Dunks58 who put it on the Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs page here way back in April of 2005 says "Eric and the Dynamos. But the artistsfacts.com page claims the band was Derek and the Dynamics and claims they retrieved this info directly from Bobby Whitlock himself in an interview. If anyone knows which one is correct and has a source for the info that would be great. Thanks, - Patman2648 01:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Hard rock?

They are not a hard rock band so someone should change the genre that to rock blues or some similar

Removed hard rock from the categories thanks for making aware the situation. - Patman2648 23:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

GA Nomination

I put this articles Good Article nomination on hold because it lacks a few references, each of which I marked with a "citation needed." Other than that, it is stellar and could even rise to Featured Article status soon if expanded a little more. I'd recommend putting it through peer review once you add in those references and I pass it as a GA. -- Cielomobile ^minor7♭5 04:35, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the gracious words on the article and I appreciate the effort in spending time on this page when it was so far behind on the list of Good Article nominees. I have cited all places where you placed {{Fact}} and have put the article in for a peer review through the fabolous folks at WikiProject Biographies. I will also work on expanding the page further and obtaining my goal of Featured Article status. Thank you again and please check back in a few days after the peer review. - Patman2648 07:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

As you no doubt noticed, I also had a tweak and in my edit summary mentioned the narrative. (I'm from WPBIO, by the way). It's nice to see you've improved it a bit already, but I think the last section is still a tad confusing. "The album although initially not recieved well by critics,[27] has since become considered among Clapton's most outstanding achievements." Which album? You mention many. Is nndb.com a reliable source by the way?

If by album you mean Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs, perhaps you should move that text into the "The Layla album" section? If you mean another album please state which one. (In "The Layla album" section you don't mention at all it being negatively received; just that it "has continued to be noticed by critics and has been named one of the best albums of all time by VH1 and Rolling Stone". Hope that helps. --kingboyk 23:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that ending section is still terrible, I tried somewhat but it just needs to be rewritten from the ground up, its just plain awful and has been from the start. I will definitely re-haul that end section and for the other phrase (nndb.com, flop/success), I went to my library and got some more books on the matter which I'll add in which clarify the situation much better than any online sources I've seen and I'll replace that section properly and move material from end section to the layla section. Overall those two sections are the weak points of the article and I will try to rework them. Thank you so much for the advice and help, any advice you can give would be great and I will do my utmost to fix the problem(s). Thanks again - Patman2648 23:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Passed GA Nomination!

Congratulations, this article has been promoted to Good Article status. If you wish to continue the improvement of this article, by all means follow through with the peer review. Good luck. -- Cielomobile ^minor7♭5 05:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

It was brought to my attention that the images here don't have fair use rationale for this page, which is required in order for the article to be GA status. Please provide that rationale for this article to retain its GA status. -- Cielomobile ^minor7♭5 17:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I provided fair use rationale for all images, if there are any problems with the rationale please notify me and I'll work to correct them. Thanks for allowing me time to provide the fair use rationale and not instantly failing the article. - Patman2648 03:26, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

The discography section still needs fair use rationale, but good work so far. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 03:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Updated discography and everything should be in order, thanks again. - Patman2648 05:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I haven't checked the history, but as of this date the article is awful, one of the worst non-stub articles I've encountered at Wikipedia (which is really saying something). TheScotch (talk) 07:01, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Second or third CD?

By the track listing of The Layla Sessions: 20th Anniversary Edition, I can clearly see that the studio jams are on the second CD, not the third. But I did find few sites that say otherwise, is that true? Michaelas10 11:03, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe you are right that its the second album. I own the box set and the jams are on the second CD. Thanks and you did a really good job on the album The Layla Sessions: 20th Anniversary Edition, now I have to go back and improve all the other D&D albums to those standards. Thanks and Good luck! - Patman2648 19:59, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

References

There is clearly something wrong with the refernces, they just don't show up. I've looked in the history and didn't seem to find any problem. A Wikipedia error? Michaelas10 (T|C) 00:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I see them alright, maybe it's your browser? -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 03:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

It went away with Firefox. Probably just an IE bug. Michaelas10 (T|C) 11:29, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Discography

There was an attempt to change the formatting of discography to a standard text only version claiming a WP:MUSTARD regulation. Upon further review on the matter there is no clear concensus on discography sections but a vote is underway and can be reached at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musicians/Article guidelines where I encourage everyone to vote on the matter. The discography section used previously and on the page now is an extremely popular format that has been in used in many Wikipedia:Featured Articles such as The Beatles, Pink Floyd, and Genesis. On the question at hand please make your voice heard on which discography format you'd prefer to see on this page. Thanks you. - Patman2648 07:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Why can't we just combine both? Images at top, and chart table below. I've seen this done like 100 times. Michaelas10 (T|C) 11:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think doing that would be redundant. The images look much cleaner, and the cover of Layla is closely associated with Clapton and the group. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 16:20, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Origin

New York??? Derek and The Dominos are surely of English origin as the history of the group makes clear. They were formed in England and toured in England before anyone in New York was even aware they existed. Skinsmoke 18:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Layla songwriter credit

I believe there is some fact in Clapton not writing the song "Layla" considering Layla was a real person and his girlfriend at the time the song came out in 1970. Clapton met her when she founded a militia unit that he secretly joined. He let her name "Derek and the Dominos" after she wrote "Layla." I don't know if they formed in England or the USA, but the song was wrote in Missouri and recorded in the states. Considering this I would like to know why Clapton refuses to acknowledge the subject of "credited to" for the woman named Layla. Source; http://www.s9.com/ Yodeldaddy (talk) 21:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Carl Radle's Death

This article attributes Carl Radle's death to alcohol poisoning. This is not correct. The cause was a kidney infection whose onset was contributed to by alcohol and narcotic abuse. This is quite different from alcohol poisoning. The article needs to be corrected by someone who knows what they hell they are talking about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.87.255.132 (talk) 17:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I've updated the article, and added a reference. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 18:16, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Associated acts

Shouldn't all the bands Eric Clapton was in, like The Yardbirds, Cream, and Blind Faith, be under the associated acts section on the info box?Iminrainbows (talk) 02:01, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Derek and the Dominos/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

Starting GA reassessment as part of the GA Sweeps process. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:06, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Checking against GA criteria

To uphold the quality of Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. While all the hard work that has gone into this article is appreciated, unfortunately, as of September 12, 2009, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAN. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GAR.

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   Reference #3 [1] is anot a reliable source; ref #16 [2] is not RS; ref #13 [3] is not RS; ref #5 [4] is not RS; I have placed citation needed tag, there is also a long outstanding one in the infobox, relating to lack of sourcing of the group's origins.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Referencing issues above need to be addressed on hold for seven days. Major contributors and projects will be notified. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:28, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

No attempt has been made to address these points so de-listing. The notice at the top of this reassessment lists possible courses of action. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:00, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Second Album

There are mentions here of the second abortive album as well as over Clapton's Crossroads page. Anyone know what tracks were recorded for this or a possible name for it? I'm guessing the sessions were not very complete or we'd have seen some sort of reconstrution/ approximation of it by now. 66.31.76.221 (talk) 16:16, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Citation for opinion

Re: "Although most commonly attributed to Clapton, the album was truly a group effort."

The above is a more-or-less random example of the sort of POV we find throughout much or most of the article. This example has a citation, but a citation doesn't make it any less a matter of subjective opinion. The only excusable way to allow subjective opinion in an encyclopedia article is to attribute it within the article (not in a footnote) to a single source. TheScotch (talk) 07:10, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Mason on All Things Must Pass; Harrison on "Tell the Truth"/"Roll it Over" single

Hi. I've come to this article after recently expanding the Bobby Whitlock bio article and having done the same a while back with All Things Must Pass and related Harrison song articles. I'd really like to help improve this one but thought it best to bring a couple of issues here first, because they concern information that's supported by Harrison-specific sources but other contribs may have (reliable) Clapton/Dominos sources that state otherwise.

• The first point concerns Mason's participation on All Things Must Pass. Currently, the Layla Sessions liner notes support the statement that Clapton and Whitlock "called the rest of their former Delaney and Bonnie musicians, Dave Mason, Carl Radle and Jim Gordon and together the quintet became the backing band for George Harrison's album All Things Must Pass". This is not the case, according to sources such as Simon Leng's Harrison bio and a number of other Harrison or solo Beatles-related sources. The impression they give, or in Leng's case what he states directly, is that Mason played on at most two songs, "Beware of Darkness" and "I Dig Love", and participated in two of the jams included on the bonus disc Apple Jam ("Thanks for the Pepperoni" and "Plug Me In"). The other Dominos appear on at least two-thirds of the album, of course. I don't know what Clapton says in his autobiography, but I know in Bobby Whitlock's (p. 82), he (Whitlock) states that Mason joined the proceedings very late in the sessions: "That's also where Dave Mason enters the picture on the record. He didn't play on the body of All Things Must Pass. He came in at the end on our Domino thing when we recorded 'Tell the Truth' and 'Roll It Over' and these jams." Harrison mentioned the four Dominos as part of the core group of musicians on the album – for example in his 2001 liner notes and during interviews at that time (here's one) – but rarely if ever Dave Mason. So, I'd like to fix the mention in this Dominos article to match information given in ATMP song articles. Any thoughts, anyone? JG66 (talk) 07:14, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll come back soon with part II – regarding Harrison's participation with Mason on the Spector-produced "Tell the Truth" sessions. Cheers, JG66 (talk) 07:14, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

• The way I understand it, "Tell the Truth" and "Roll It Over" were recorded at Apple Studio in a single day, 18 June 1970, either before or after the Apple Jam tracks "Thanks for the Pepperoni" and "Plug Me In". That's according to Leng – although admittedly he says the date's 5 August, which doesn't tally with Whitlock's autobiography, Madinger & Easter's Eight Arms to Hold You and other sources. The sources I've got are inconsistent about which of the two sides Harrison plays, and/or whether it's both. Alan Clayson, Madinger & Easter and Elliot Huntley say Harrison played slide guitar on "Roll It Over"; in Castleman & Podrazik's All Together Now: The First Complete Beatles Discography and The Editors of Rolling Stone's 2002 Harrison tribute, they mention him playing guitar on "Tell the Truth". Robert Rodriguez mentions Harrison "sitting in" on both tracks, and Harrison himself says he played on both. (When he says in reply to the Billboard interviewer's question, "No, because they usually didn't use those", I think it's safe to assume, from his comments that follow about compilation albums, that he's discounting or wasn't aware of the very limited-release Tell the Truth/Roll It Over single.) Personally, I think there's no doubt that Harrison did play on both songs – that's from knowing that the Dominos songs were recorded live, and also judging by those Apple Jam tracks recorded the same day. So, there are enough sources that support Harrison playing on both sides – but again, I'd be interested to know what the Clapton/Domino sources say ... Cheers, JG66 (talk) 11:01, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Band members – Duane Allman

I've started a discussion relevant to this article's list of official band members at Talk:Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs#Duane Allman, further to an earlier discussion on the Layla album's Personnel list. All interested editors are encouraged to join the discussion there. Thanks, JG66 (talk) 15:44, 6 November 2014 (UTC)