Talk:Denys Rayner

First comment

Not sure if it is just me but I found section 2 'Writer' unreadable. The quote from Roskill is very relevant but some of the other parts, particularly the section from the Amazon review onward, I found very heavy going and switched me off reading further (and I am very interested in Rayner). I stress that it may just be my personal opinion but I think that the section 'Writer' should be factual with the opinions considerably compacted. Boatman 12:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Boatman. I have taken it out. In many cases I am jealous of my own opinions, but re-reading that passage I don't blame you turning off. I put those words in at the time because I was feeling the need to defend Rayner in a way that feels no longer necessary.Sibadd 20:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

The Westerly Story

Certainly of interest, but the current format looks promotional.

'The Westerly Story' - a history of the company and its boats== In early 2006 the Vice-Commodore of the Westerly Owners' Association conceived the idea of writing a history of Westerly and the boats they built. ‘The Westerly Story’ by Brian Easteal and Peter Poland, includes an account of Denys Rayner's role in founding the company, designing its first five models, and assuring its future even while gravely ill. This illustrated 112 page book was privately published in November and copies can be obtained from the WOA Membership Administration Office, 19 Willowdale Close, Petersfield, Hampshire GU32 3PS, UK [1]

Tearlach 04:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits

I've added some detail on his various commands (I've got the stuff mostly from "Escort"); I've also split the WWII section up a bit, to make it less unwieldy. I trust that's OK with everone. Xyl 54 (talk) 14:11, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Derry/Londonderry

When this article was written, about 6 years ago, this article made a passing reference to the place Rayner was based, calling it, according to the sources used, "Londonderry".
Some time after, this was changed, presumably in deference to the requirements on historical names, to "Londonderry-now Derry"
This was changed again, in March 2008, to "Derry", claiming justification from WP:IMOS, specifically (one assumes) this section.
When I changed it back to the original, as supported by sources, this was immediately reverted, again quoting WP:DERRY.
So my question is, in what corner of the WP universe does WP:IMOS trump WP:VERIFY, WP:NC (geographic names) and (probably) WP:RETAIN?
More to the point, why does IMOS/DERRY even apply, when the article is not on any Irish subject, and the placename tangentially referred to is neither the city, nor the county, but the RN base on the Foyle for which "Londonderry" was, and is, the correct and common name? Xyl 54 (talk) 17:23, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Supported by sources isn't a relevant argument, since they both refer to the same place. That's a slippery slope to people finding seven sources to support Derry then someone else finding eight to support Londonderry. The manual of style is used to promote consistent terminology across the whole encyclopedia, I don't as yet see any reason why this article needs to be excepted from it. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 17:28, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I imagine you don't see any reason to change our view, but you haven't answered either of my questions as to why that view even applies here. Xyl 54 (talk) 17:32, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

There’s been no answer to this; no explanation given as to why IMOS would take precedence over the guidelines mentioned, and no explanation why it would apply here.

But even allowing that, WP:DERRY is clear that “Where an entity uses a particular name, regardless of whether it is "Derry" or "Londonderry", (we should) use that name…”. So as the place referred to in the article would be the naval base, properly called “RN Londonderry”, and not the city itself, the original text was correct.

Accordingly I’ve replaced it and fixed the link. Xyl 54 (talk) 14:57, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

See WP:EGG for what was wrong with the newest version. Also per the instructions at the top of my talk page that appear when editing, don't post there again. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 15:13, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Fixed per EGG: and still no answer to the rest of it. Xyl 54 (talk) 15:22, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

That's because none of the rest of it was relevant to the change you made. Entities refers to proper nouns such as names of organisations, and since neither "Londonderry" or "base at Londonderry" is a proper noun referring to an entity, it isn't relevnat. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 15:30, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

(od)So, “not relevant”; I think you’ll have to do better than that.

How is detail supported by reliable sources not relevant? How about the guidelines on historical names, generally adhered to except for here? How about the advice on avoiding squabbles over spellings?

And (contrariwise) how is it that IMOS, which claims a purview over "Ireland related articles" (listing Places, People, Language, Flags) has any relevance for this article, which is none of those things?

You’ve objected to my link as it’s “not a proper noun”; how is that relevant? WP:DERRY doesn’t say anything about proper nouns: it talks about entities; how is a naval base less of an entity than a newspaper or a a railway?

And I’ve had second thoughts about your appeal to EGG, as well. How is the phrase “the base at Londonderry” with a link to that base more surprising than the same phrase with a link to a city 5 miles away? Xyl 54 (talk) 21:51, 28 June 2012 (UTC):

The manual of style applies to all articles. That it is a sub-page doesn't change that, you might want to learn why sub-pages exist. Hint - it's so the manual of style isn't 200 pages long. WP:DERRY does talk about proper nouns, try reading it. If you had actually quoted it in full, it reads "Where an entity uses a particular name, regardless of whether it is Derry or Londonderry, use that name for the organisation; thus County Derry Post (newspaper), High Sheriff of County Londonderry, former Derry Central Railway, North West Liberties of Londonderry." County Derry Post - proper noun. High Sheriff of County Londonderry - proper noun. Derry Central Railway - proper noun. North West Liberties of Londonderry - proper noun. The rest of your comments are still irrelevant or have already been refuted. I will touch on WP:RETAIN though, since you're hilarious enough to bring it up while acting in contravention of it. Well done!! 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 05:28, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you at least for making a fuller reply.

On the subject of MOS, I'm clear enough about sub-pages; they "provide detailed guidance on on particular topics or subject areas". In the case of IMOS, that is "the style of language and writing to be used in Ireland-related articles". So, again; how is this an Ireland related article? And MOS doesn't there to "promote consistent terminology across the whole encyclopedia" (as you've claimed) at all; just the second section you come to deals with guidelines for different varieties of vocabulary, spelling and grammar (basically, respect other peoples way of saying things, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it), and the Vocabulary section gives guidance on contested vocab (avoid words that are unecessarily regional) and geographical terms (where there is a widely accepted English name appropriate to the given context). So I reckon you have a problem: If IMOS is to cover all pages it’s in conflict with the rest of MOS on the subject; and if it only applies to Ireland-related pages it has no bearing on a page about an English naval officer from the first half of of the 20th century.

As for proper nouns, the official name for the base was HM Naval Base Londonderry; as a stone frigate it was also called HMS Ferret, which is where the article is) that doesn’t negate the proper name, or HMNB Londonderry as a proper title.

And you still haven't said why WP:VERIFY ("all information must be verifiable" and which, everywhere else on WP, is a core principle) is irrelevant here. Your offer to produce seven sources to show this bloke was based at "Derry" hasn't been substantiated; even one source would be a start...

On the subject of WP:RETAIN, which you find so hilarious, the principle is to "defer to the style used by the first major contributor". The original editor, Sibadd, put "Londonderry"; this was changed by Derry Boi (the name gives us the clue!); I put it back to Londonderry (the original version) and you are now edit warring with me over it. So if anyone is in contravention of RETAIN, I'm pretty sure it isn't me. Xyl 54 (talk) 23:04, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree with ONiH use Derry in this instance. Mo ainm~Talk 13:48, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Care to elaborate at all? Some response to the objections raised, maybe? Xyl 54 (talk) 23:24, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Is it your contention that when the name of the city was changed from Derry to Londonderry that the language was also changed (presumably from Hiberno-English to [British] English)? Once that question has been answered, including sources to support your claim that Derry and Londonderry are indeed words in two different languages and not both [British] English, I'll be happy to demolish the rest of your argument about WP:RETAIN.

The sources point has already been addressed, you just chose to ignore it. Based on your claim that I actually offered to produce seven sources, it appears you have trouble understanding simple sentences or wilfully choose to distort the meaning of them to one which isn't apparent to anyone else. Which is it? Bear in mind also the fact you've chosen to ignore the sentence in the manual of style right at the top reading "The MoS presents Wikipedia's house style, to help editors produce articles with consistent, clear, and precise language, layout, and formatting", since that should have an impact on your answer. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:13, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Xyl 54 use Londonderry in this instance. — JonC^ॐ 19:43, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

(od)Reply to ONiH:If by “the sources point has been addressed” you are referring to your airy declaration that “they are irrelevant” (which I would again say is playing pretty fast and loose with WP:VERIFY. The only justification you have offered for this opinion was that “they are two names for the same place”. There are plenty of articles on places with two names, and we have clear guidance in MOS and WP:PLACE on how to deal with them. The guidance on historical names is that where “a place whose name has changed over time, context is important. ...Older names should be used in appropriate historical contexts when a substantial majority of reliable modern sources does the same". So it would seem sources are relevant, after all.

Also, your comment about "seven sources for Derry" was clear enough; you were claiming some kind of equivalence for the use of Derry in the sources here: And I was expressing doubt you would find even one. So as WP:PLACE does require reliable sources, you need to come up with at least one source that says this person was at “Derry” during the war to have leg to stand on.

And my reference to RETAIN, I thought I'd made clear, is to the principle of deferring to the style used by the original editor (in this case, Sibadd). But don’t take my word for it, it’s there in the introduction to MOS; if there is no agreement we should "defer to the style used by the first major contributor".

As for saying Derry and Londonderry are both British English, I’d say you were skating on this ice; I was under the impression there was a section of the population in Northern Ireland which didn’t see itself as British at all (the one whose members go round painting out "London-" from roadsigns): Are you saying they would claim to be British after all?

As for "consistent, clear and precise language", there is nothing consistent about using an anachronism, nothing clear about using a name that doesn’t appear in the sources used, and nothing precise about linking to a page on a city when the place referred to is a naval base 5 miles away. And on that subject, there is still no resolution, so the rest of it is looking a bit academic.

It's also a much wider discussion, which isn't happening here, so I have raised the matter at the MOS talk page. You might want to comment there on the subject. Xyl 54 (talk) 23:40, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Since Derry and Londonderry are the same place, I think you'll find you're wrong in saying I need a source that says Derry. You might also want to learn the history of the place you're talking about, since you keep repeating the same flawed argument about WP:RETAIN, which refers to national varieties of English. It's you that's asserting that Derry and Londonderry are two different varieties of English, do you have any evidence at all to support that assertion? 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 06:42, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually it’s you that is asserting I am asserting that, as a careful read of what I said will show (is that "trouble understanding a simple sentence"? or "wifully choosing to distort the meaning..."?)

And whether I’m wrong in saying you need a source (per PLACE and MOS) for what you are saying is under discussion here, now. Xyl 54 (talk) 13:02, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I think WP:DERRY is being misread. The compromise was to stop the "constant renaming of articles" not for the name within articles. The content of articles should be consistent (we do not want alternate usage of Derry and Londonderry within the text as a sort of editorial neutrality), but in general the usage in the reliable sources within the article should be followed (unless the majority of sources in the article can be shown to be idiosyncratic or obsolete). This is after all implicitly supported by the primary reason we have redirects, which exist to allow different names to be used for an article. So in this case I think that Londonderry is more appropriate. If this was a discussion about the content of the article Derry City F.C., then the opposite would be true because most of the sources refer to Derry and not Londonderry. -- PBS (talk) 10:18, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

You'll have to explain how "Use Derry for the city and County Londonderry for the county in articles" can possibly be misread, since it's pretty clear to me and I suspect anyone else who understands English. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 10:23, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Still no reasoning given as to why we should ignore IMOS on this article. Can you explain PBS what part of IMOS is being misread and how? It is quiet clear Derry for city and LDerry for the county.Mo ainm~Talk 17:22, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

No capital "d" in Londonderry, but I'll let you off. — JonC^ॐ 10:57, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

The sentence in question is not well written. "Returning to her base" could mean "while she was returning" or "after she had returned". Assuming the former meaning, the sentence as it stands says that while the steering of the Pevensey Castle was returning to its base, it broke, which I am sure is not what was intended. That may sound trivial, but considering the grammatical awkwardness of the sentence, many readers may feel that the name given to the base to which the ship (or its steering) was returning is too trivial to merit such a lengthy debate. Now, I have a question. I have not read this man's books. Does he say that the base in question was the stone frigate HMS Ferret? If so, then why not simply say "As the Pevensey Castle was returning to its base, the HMS Ferret..."? If not, is it not something of a double standard to say that the city may not be called Derry because Rayner did not write "Derry", but the word may be linked to the HMS Ferret article although he did not write "HMS Ferret"? Some of the arguments and some of the edits e.g. "Londonderry, now Derry" suggest that "Derry" is an anachronism: a post-1998 name used in reference to a 1955 book. It's not. Thomas Davis, in his 1841 essay "The Irish Parliament of James II", writes, "James landed at Kinsale, 12th March, 1689...and, after receiving many congratulatory addresses, set out for Derry to press the Blockade" (Thomas Davis, selections from his prose and poetry, p. 13). There is not an old name and a new name, but rather two names for the one city, and that is why a convention had to be decided for referring to it. But at the end of the day, if it really is too much for you to say "Derry", the fact is that there is no need to say anything at all, and the article won't suffer one iota! "As the Pevensey Castle was returning to its base, her steering broke in a northerly gale off the mouth of the River Foyle" says it as well, indeed better, than any of the constructions that have been tried so far, and still indicates the geographical location of the mishap. So I have to ask, is it really worth upsetting the whole apple-cart over someting that is of no importance whatever to the article? Scolaire (talk) 00:22, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

If it's not needed to be explictly said then don't per Scolaire's proposal. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:12, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I think the problem was that it was really too much for someone else to say “Londonderry”

But I can agree, not saying the name at all is better than the insistence on what is there now.

And no, I don’t think it’s worth upsetting a whole apple-cart over it, but then, I didn’t think it was worth an edit war and 20Kb of argument over “six letters of a word”, either. Xyl 54 (talk) 22:43, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

So, it was Derry Boi who went to MOS and IMOS and started 20k of argument on each of those, was it? Scolaire (talk) 23:27, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Right then, not a compromise; just a remedy we can all live with.

And, we can carry on arguing about who is at fault here, if you like, but I think we’d probably be better off agreeing to differ at this point, don't you? Xyl 54 (talk) 21:46, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I thought we'd already agreed to differ. But yes, I am more than happy to draw a line under this. Scolaire (talk) 22:21, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me slipping under that two year old line. I was the originator of the article on Denys Rayner. I have not so far taken part in the Derry/Londonderry name dispute. The different names continue to carry profound historical resonance, so I don't count the words spent here as wasted, nor will I mind if the name is politely reverted, unless it's done without recourse to the discussion on this page! I've read WP:DERRY and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration. Can you imagine a hard print encyclopaedia getting such a famously contested subject right, without overloading itself with omissions and footnotes? I take the point that 'that there is no need to say anything at all, and the article won't suffer one iota!' But I have reservations still because of the fame of that name at the particular moment in history when Rayner was recalling his near shipwreck. Isn't this type of discussion exactly what Wikipedia is about; what makes it so special and alive? As a long aside, my first job as a journeyman anthropologist, was in 1966, on a merchant ship called Irish Spruce. Her Irish master had neatly changed anglicised names, especially Londonderry, on his Admiralty charts to those he preferred, giving me, during the voyage, the best lesson I'd had until then on Anglo-Irish history. A ticketed merchant navy officer is entitled to make chart corrections, though I'm not sure these were the corrections the Admiralty or its chart agents had in mind (all done digitally now). I have, so far, happily accepted the HMS Ferret (shore establishment 1940) compromise in this article - introduced in June 2012 - but given greater willingness, two years later, to allow the co-existence of both names, it seems to me that it may be acceptable in this particular context, to restore the name used by Rayner in his wartime memoir Escort. History is made by big events but also by the incremental accumulation of tiny events - such as shifting attitudes to the use of the names Derry-Londonderry. By including a link within the name Londonderry to Derry, I hope my edit respects an historic debate, while accurately identifying the working name of one of the most important British naval bases in the Battle of the Atlantic. Furthermore I judge the edit consistent with Wikipedia's Sisyphean search for encyclopedic consistency - a page I note as inactive (:)). Simon Baddeley (talk) 09:48, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

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