Talk:Denis Pack-Beresford (politician)

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Requested move 2 October 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: (non-admin closure) MOVED to Denis Pack-Beresford (politician). User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 01:11, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Between the socking and the limited participation, nothing other than the standardization of the disambiguator found consensus. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 01:11, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Denis Pack-Beresford (MP) → Denis Pack-Beresford
Denis Robert Pack-Beresford → ?

– Currently Denis Pack-Beresford is a two-entry disambiguation page. The MP's son Denis Robert Pack-Beresford seems to have been known by this name (e.g. in the death notice of his brother here). So we are disambiguating the father and son using two different styles: "parenthetical" for the father and "natural" for the son. That's not a problem in itself, but I'm trying to determine consensus on whether we have a primary topic.

We do have a redirect Denis Pack-Beresford (entomologist), and his bibliography lists his papers as "Pack-Beresford, D. R.", so the question is was he commonly called "Denis Robert", "Denis R."^[1] or just "Denis"? (I note that book title replaces the hyphen with a space, too.)

Page views since 2015 are 2034 for the entomologist son and 885 for the politician father, but that's really irrelevant as I don't think the son is primary topic for "Denis Pack-Beresford". In that case, the MP father should be at that title, with a hatnote.

In the alternative, if "Denis Robert" is not in fact the MOS:COMMONNAME for the entomologist, we should not use it as a disambiguating phrase, and instead move him over Denis Pack-Beresford (entomologist), or over Denis Pack-Beresford as the primary topic. I also note that the article lede states that the MP was known as Denis William Pack until 1857.

References

^ Harding, Paul T. (1980). A catalogue of the papers of Denis R. Pack Beresford at the library of the Royal Irish Academy. Institute of Terrestrial Ecology.

85.67.32.244 (talk) 06:13, 2 October 2021 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 16:57, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support first, oppose second per WP:NATURAL. It appears the son is always cited using either "Denis Robert", "Denis R." or "D.R.", so should not be moved. That being the case, the MP's article can use the title Denis Pack-Beresford without an artificial qualifier. With only two possibilities, there is no need for a dab page, ~~per WP:TWODABS,~~ as long as there are {{distinguish}} hatnotes on each article. Station1 (talk) 16:02, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The TWODABS argument simply doesn't fly; that guideline is often misapplied. WP:NOPRIMARY says "If there are multiple topics (even just two) to which a given title might refer, but per the criteria at Is there a primary topic? there is no primary topic, then the base name should lead the reader to the disambiguation page for the term" (emphasis added). Narky Blert (talk) 10:40, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are correct. Technically, TWODABS does not apply in this case. These two articles get almost identical views, but since the son is always "Denis Robert" or variation, I think the father is primary topic for the shorter title, and a hatnote there will be of more use than a dab page for the majority of readers. There used to be a sentence at TWODABS that said "If the titles of two articles differ only in capitalization or the separation or non-separation of components (as per WP:DIFFCAPS or WP:PLURALPT), the articles each should contain a hatnote to link to each other", and I think the spirit of that applies in this case. Station1 (talk) 17:12, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Move Denis Pack-Beresford (MP) to Denis Pack-Beresford (politician), our standard disambiguator. Neutral on Denis Robert Pack-Beresford. But his father still needs disambiguating since the son was still Denis Pack-Beresford, whether he sometimes/always used his middle name or not. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:24, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] Harding, Paul T. (1980). A catalogue of the papers of Denis R. Pack Beresford at the library of the Royal Irish Academy. Institute of Terrestrial Ecology.

[1]