Talk:Democracy in Europe Movement 2025/Archive 1

Archive 1

Clarity: sample revision, OK?

Hi Wikipedia Diem25 editors.

I’d like to make the DiEM25 article easier to read and understand, but before I post a significant revision to the “Agenda” section, I’m going to post it here for review because I want the responses of those who have already worked on this page. (Wikipedia may have a way to do this elsewhere – if so I’ll be happy to work there.)

The changes I am proposing are meant to clarify the entry rather than add content or change meaning. I have only used the existing text as a source. I have kept the original citations, but have not checked them for accuracy. If I have unintentionally distorted DiEM25’s agenda, please correct the entry and edit for clarity.

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DiEM25 seeks to create a more democratic Europe. They see the European Union becoming a technocratic superstate ruled by edict and aim to make Europe a union of people governed by democratic consent.[4] DiEM25 would like to act as an umbrella organization, gathering left-wing parties, grassroots protest movements and "rebel regions" to develop a common response to the five crises Europe faces today: debt, banking, poverty, low investment and migration.[15] Further, DiEM25 wishes to reform EU institutions, originally designed to serve industry, so that they become fully transparent and responsive to European citizens. Ultimately, DiEM25 wants European citizens to write a democratic constitution for the European Union.

DiEM25 seeks to avert European fracture. They cite emerging extremist nationalism, and so-called Brexit and Grexit as splintering Europe. In the lead up to the Brexit referendum, DiEM25 co-founder Yanis Varoufakis worked with British Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn to support Britain's stay in the European Union. Varoufakis cited the special concessions[16] granted by the European Union to the United Kingdom in February 2016 as evidence of European disintegration.[17]

DiEM25 seeks to form the first transnational political party, and in May 2017 began discussing running such a party in the 2019 European Parliament election.[18] Varoufakis stated that in some countries it would cooperate with national parties that agree with the DiEM25 agenda, such as Razem in Poland or The Alternative in Denmark, while in others it might decide to run separately from any existing parties.[19]

DiEM25 supports the petition "Transparency in Europe now!", requesting the live broadcasting of the meetings of major European institutions, a comprehensive list of all Brussels lobbyists and the electronic publication of all TTIP negotiating documents.[20]

Adjprofe (talk) 06:21, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Czech Pirates

Czech Pirates have voted to support the DiEM25 manifest back in 2017. There are also reportedly two Czech pirate members of parliament which are members of DiEM25. However, none of these facts make the Czech Pirate Party affiliated either with DiEM25 nor with the European Spring. There is a comprehensive list of affiliated parties at the European Spring website.—ElTres (talk) 22:19, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

CPS is not a member of European Spring (and is therefore not on the list), but it has clearly signed the DiEM manifesto. The European Spring and DiEM25 are two separate entities, with DiEM being a part of ES. But seeing that CPS has signed the manifesto and has been recognized by the Czech wing of DiEM25, it is clearly associated with the movement. —I am here to contribute (talk) 14:02, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Apart from signing the manifesto, there where no further steps in associating CPS to DieM25. CPS is not part of the DiEM25 European Election campaign, which the section "National parties associated with DiEM25 (European Spring)" is all about ("From this alliance, during 2018, DiEM25 established an electoral list for the 2019 European Parliament elections..."). There are no formal connections between DiEM25 and CPS, there are no frequent meetings or anything that could be seen as association recently.--ElTres (talk) 15:09, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Hmmm... I see your point. However I don't think that we can remove CPS altogether. What if we add another table named something in the lines of "Parties associated with DiEM25 but not involved in DiEM camapigns"? —I am here to contribute (talk) 14:02, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

I would suggest to add CPS in the text of e.g. the Developement section. Another list is probably not necessary. —ElTres (talk) 08:25, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Structure

I’ve revised the “Structure” section for clarity and organization. After the links in the first sentence, the bulk of the section had no citations, and I have added none. A source needs to be added that provides an explanation of DiEM’s structure.

I question whether the reference to crowd funding belongs in this section, but I have not removed it.

Adjprofe (talk) 18:53, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Disputed

The webpage of the European Spring clearly says that DieM25 is one of the participating organizations: https://europeanspring.net/ on equal footing with the others, not that European Spring is the new name of DieM25 and that the other parties are "affiliated" to DieM25. Quantum Knot (talk) 19:19, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Quantum Knot, if you look closely, you'll see that European Spring also lists European Spring as a participating organization of European Spring. I think that your dispute template should be removed for the time being. The facts aren't really in dispute. We just need to figure out how to present them. What's more concerning to me is that there are parties listed on the website that are yet to be added to the list. --JECE (talk) 04:50, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

JECE, could you provide a single independent source which states that the other parties are "affiliated" with DiEM25? Once again, the European Spring's website states quite clearly that the parties mentioned participate in the European Spring, not that they are affiliated with DiEM25. Presenting a fact in a wrong way is called "lying". Quantum Knot (talk) 07:10, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Quantum Knot: Oh come on, quit the drama. Nobody is lying. There is honest confusion. Also, the onus is on you to provide a source if you want to make changes to the article. Using your logic, the only source you provided also claims that European Spring participates as a subset of European Spring, which is obviously impossible. It's more logical that DiEM25 and European Spring are largely one and the same. Take this source from a new member party (not yet listed here): [1]. --JECE (talk) 15:49, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

JECE 1. Don't try to turn this around. The onus is on the party making a claim to provide a source. If there is something unsourced in an article, it may be removed. See WP:USI: "When information is unsourced, and it is doubtful any sources are available for the information, it can be boldly removed." 2. I do not appreciate your dismissal tactic by painting my request for a source as "drama". I except an apology. 3. So the only source you could find is about something other than what is written in the article. Quantum Knot (talk) 12:40, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Quantum Knot: I am absolutely not apologizing for labeling this as unnecessary drama: "Presenting a fact in a wrong way is called 'lying'". As for your claim that the list of parties affiliated with DieM25 is unsourced, I don't know what to say. Every single member party has a source. You can tell that many of them prove the claim without even opening the linked webpages. My point above is that the only source you provided to contradict all these sources doesn't really contradict anything. By my interpretation, your source actually bolsters the claim the that the member parties are affiliated with DieM25. So, for the record, does the source from Izquierda en Positivo, which is listed as a member party of European Spring in your source, that claims the party "joined DiEM25 (European Spring)".--JECE (talk) 15:54, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

JECE Yes, your source say that IP joined DiEM25 in their project for a European party. Not an affiliation. There is no word even close to "affiliation" in your source, and yet here you are, claiming that your source does say that. I'm starting more and more to think that you are not confused but are rather acting in bad faith. Quantum Knot (talk) 08:16, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Quantum Knot: Why don't you start with trying to challenge the several sources that are listed in the article rather than the new one I listed in the talk page: "As for your claim that the list of parties affiliated with DieM25 is unsourced, I don't know what to say. Every single member party has a source. You can tell that many of them prove the claim without even opening the linked webpages. My point above is that the only source you provided to contradict all these sources doesn't really contradict anything. By my interpretation, your source actually bolsters the claim the that the member parties are affiliated with DieM25."

But for the record, you're wrong about the new source not using a word close to "affiliation". Just look at the title: "Izquierda en Positivo se suma a DiEM25". Sumar, which according to the RAE [2] means "añadir" in the sense of "agregar" or "incorporar algo a otra cosa", literally "to incorporate something into something else", i. e., in context, "to affiliate".--JECE (talk) 00:12, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

[User:JECE] I will give a longer answer later, but let me ask: do you actually speak Spanish? Because in the context, "sumar" clearly means that they are joining DiEM25 in their project of a European party. Not that they are becoming an affiliate of DiEM25. And as I already said, none of the sources that already exist in the article actually say that the parties are becoming affiliated with DiEM25. But you know this already. Quantum Knot (talk) 07:56, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

You can check my profile page in both the Spanish and English Wikipedias, Quantum Knot. Yes, I am a native Spanish speaker. Don't you think it's strange that all these parties mention that they are joining both DiEM25 and European Spring in the same breath? If they are all just equal members of European Spring, why do they all choose to mention the same member party when they join, even at the exclusion of the European Spring branding?--JECE (talk) 01:28, 16 April 2019 (UTC)