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Did you know nomination

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PrimalMustelid talk 19:37, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Created by Longhornsg (talk). Self-nominated at 19:08, 6 September 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Deli 613; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

  • Article created 6 September. No issues of copyvio or plagiarism. All sources appear reliable. QPQ is done. Hooks are interesting and sourced. I like the primary hook best. Looks ready to go. Thriley (talk) 20:00, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Longhornsg and Thriley: Neither hook is OK in its current state. The claim that there are no kosher bagel wholesalers in Europe sourced to a direct quote from the deli, but is presented as a fact in wikivoice. It would be better if a better source were found verifying this claim, or the claim needs to be qualified and/or attributed. (If you do an Internet search for kosher bagel wholesaler Europe, there appears to be at least one.) The "first fully kosher eatery" claim in ALT1 is too bold since the article hedges by saying "believed to be". Cielquiparle (talk) 15:51, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Cielquiparle:, appreciate the diligence. Point taken about this first hook. I can't find sourcing beyond the deli owner's self-proclaimed statement, so we can move on from that one for now. To address the hedging about the 1960s date, it's safe to say that the deli is the only fully kosher eatery in Ireland, language that is consistent across the two sources above and the article sourcing. Proposing the below, then:
Not a review, more of a comment, but wasn't there a rule or guideline that discouraged hooks whose truth values may change? For example, ALT2 might be true at a certain period, but may not be true in the future (either because it closes or another kosher eatery opens). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:45, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Longhornsg, Thriley, and Cielquiparle: I checked the source and it doesn't seem to directly say that it's the only fully kosher eatery in Ireland, only that it's the first one in over 50 years. With this in mind, would this work?
ALT3... that when Deli 613 opened in March 2023, it was the first kosher eatery in Ireland in over 50 years?
Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:12, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ALT3 definitely works. Thriley (talk) 12:21, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've relabeled my hook as ALT3 as "ALT2" was a typo. In any case it needs a new review. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:13, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm wary of any hook that claims "first", "only", etc. These are impossible to verify with any degree of certainty. I'll also go out on a limb (because I'm far from an expert on this) and talk a bit about the only kosher eatery and no kosher bagel wholesalers in Europe. There is no such thing as "kosher". There is "Some authority has said this is kosher". And while I'd hesitate to say that some are stricter than others, I will quote from My Jewish Learning where it says "some people only trust certain organizations to do a good job of making sure something is kosher." So, instead of "there are no kosher bagel wholesalers in Europe", I'd be more willing to accept "there are no kosher bagel wholesalers in Europe which satisfy Deli 613's requirements" because at least we can base that on a statement from Deli 613 as opposed to an exhaustive search of all bagel wholesalers in Europe and an unknown standard by which they're being evaluated. Although even that is questionable because how do we know that there isn't a bagel wholesaler somewhere in Europe which Deli 613 isn't aware of. So we're down to "Deli 613 hasn't yet found a bagel wholesaler in Europe which meets their standards for being kosher". RoySmith (talk) 23:05, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@RoySmith: Would a hook narrowing it to just Ireland address some of your concerns, or would it still require extraordinary sourcing? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:07, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand your question. We're talking about ALT3? It's already just about Ireland. What changes are you proposing? In any case, it doesn't address the problem with "first" and "only" being basically impossible to verify. RoySmith (talk) 11:36, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your comment above seemed to mostly be referring to Europe and I was asking if the scope of the hook being narrowed to just Ireland would remove or at least alleviate the concerns. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:05, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@RoySmith and Narutolovehinata5: Understand the caution about "first" and "only". This case I don't think is an especially extraordinary claim. The Jewish community and pool of kosher-eating Irish people are so small (estimated at below 3000 and overwhelmingly concentrated in Dublin), that the opening and operating of any kosher-certified eatery would be pretty apparent and newsworthy. I would be confident saying that people who keep kosher, whatever the level, would know whether there was any such restaurant in the country before Deli 613's opening earlier this year. Longhornsg (talk) 22:19, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Longhornsg My apologies for not responding quicker. There's two issues here. First is that DYK has had chronic problems with these types of hooks. We think something is "first" and then somebody pops up on WP:ERRORS with an example of an earlier one. There's just no way to prove something is "first" if the category is open-ended. "First person from Ireland to win an Olympic gold medal in luge", sure. There's a finite number of those given out and there's good records kept, so you can do an exhaustive search of everybody who got one. That's not the case here. The other issue is that while I'm sure you are speaking in good faith when you say "I would be confident saying that ...", that's WP:OR, which is kind of the antithesis of a WP:RS. RoySmith (talk) 21:10, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • While I do agree that "first" hooks are often a problem at DYK, especially when it turns out that they weren't first at all, I trust the editor's judgement that the subject is so niche and counterexamples are so unlikely that in this particular case at least I'd trust that the claim is accurate (Ireland after all is famous for being very Catholic). Nevertheless, in the interest of the nomination moving forward, I'm offering two hooks: one says that the statement is a claim, hopefully lowering the bar needed, and the other does away with the "first" angle altogether.
  • ALT3a... that when Deli 613 opened in March 2023, it was claimed to be the first kosher eatery in Ireland in over 50 years?
  • ALT4 ... that the name of the Irish kosher eatery Deli 613 is taken from the 613 commandments in the Torah?
Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:07, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Longhornsg and RoySmith: Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:18, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Narutolovehinata5, Appreciate your efforts to move this forward. I'm fine with either one, both of which sourced to the JTA source already in the article. @Roy Smith:. Given that the article has not changed since the original nomination and review(s), figure we just need to get approval on the hook. Longhornsg (talk) 21:46, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging RoySmith again for his thoughts on ALT3a and ALT4. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:22, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure my approval needs to be a blocker here, but since I've been pinged, yes, I agree that both ALT3a and ALT4 have addressed my specific point about the use of "first" in hooks. That being said, I am also concerned that this will be seen as promotional, i.e. putting a small new commercial business on the front page of wikipedia. How does this not fail the last bullet point of WP:DYKNOT? RoySmith (talk) 14:46, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really see the hook as promotional. For one thing it's just talking about something that happens to be new, its purpose wasn't to make people go to it or patronize it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·
  • ALT5 ... that Dublin restaurant Deli 613 imports frozen bagels from New York?
Approve ALT5 (contributed by Viriditas who did not sign it) as simple and factual and hooky. Cielquiparle (talk) 10:59, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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