Talk:Deaths in October 2024

Herman Selleslags

The list says that Herman Selleslags died of assisted suicide on October 18. This is not accurate. He died of voluntary euthanasia. 93.117.220.196 (talk) 11:33, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The attached source translates as "Selleslags chose euthanasia". Do you have a different source with a more accurate description? WWGB (talk) 12:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

All reliable sources state that he chose euthanasia. Euthanasia. Which is not suicide. Not a single source mentions suicide or assisted suicide. And as far as "choosing" is concerned, euthanasia is always performed by a qualified doctor at the request of the patient, never by the patient himself. 2001:1C00:1818:E800:5949:E659:F07E:2832 (talk) 20:03, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The legality of any third party administering euthanasia to another human being is pretty much banned worldwide, though it's being debated everywhere very often in the modern day. Switzerland is probably the closest one can get to requesting euthanasia - even there, they get round the legal situation by referring to it as assisted suicide. To suggest anything else than assisted suicide for a human being is to imply that some wrongdoing or crime has been committed in the act, and that's not the purpose of an encyclopedia and certainly (I don't think) this particular page. Ref ^(chew)(do) 21:31, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

That is not true. Euthanasia is legal in Belgium, where he lived and died. Except for certain circumstances, but that would be speculative, because we have no information at all that that would be the case here. Describing it as euthanasia doesn't imply any wrongdoing. And even then, it is moot. Every single reliable source says he died of euthanasia. Not a single source anywhere says he died of suicide or assisted suicide. That makes the current description unsourced. 93.117.220.196 (talk) 07:30, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Sourcing to prove assisted suicide is not the problem. It's the lack of independent reliable sources confirming euthanasia which is a cause for concern, as only one of the two used in her English Wikipedia article actually states euthanasia (https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2024/10/19/rip-herman-selleslags-overleden/) - the other states "died unexpectedly this morning" (https://www.hln.be/tv/brt-omroepster-sonja-cantre-72-overleden~a596fd2c/). And I can find NO other reliable sources on the internet which repeat the euthanasia stance regarding Selleslags. Please also note that the Wikipedia category covering euthanasia combines that article with those of assisted suicide and List of deaths from legal euthanasia and assisted suicide, which further blurs the lines.

Proof of legality of euthanasia in one country, or a minority of countries across the world as is the case, does not prove the moral and ethical justifications for its use anywhere - as I've tried to say, this delicate issue walks a fine tightrope between murder and suicide, very much depending where it is you live, and the neutral standpoint in this encyclopedia would be to go with what is broadly considered the legal option of assisted suicide. I have searched her article and linked sources thoroughly for something which would change my mind about the existing CoD at the entry, but I'm still not inclined to alter it myself. A consensus to change it would be a different matter, if enough editors expressed it here. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 15:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

First of all, off-topic: it's his article, not her article. On-topic: what do you mean by a "lack of independent reliable sources"? His own employer calls it euthanasia, just like the Belgian public broadcaster and several of the largest newspapers in Belgium. Not a single source calls it suicide or assisted suicide. There's no evidence whatsoever that Selleslags committed suicide and there's no evidence that anyone assisted him in committing suicide. Why would Wikipedia pretend to know better? Secondly: the legal status of euthanasia around the world is irrelevant, just like "the moral and ethical justifications", whatever that means. The only thing that matters is that euthanasia is a legal medical practice in Belgium, and that listing it as a cause of death in no way suggests that anyone committed a crime. That's simply not the case. 93.117.220.196 (talk) 16:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for the gender mistake. I can't add to what I've said, so it'll be down to others to add to this section. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 20:55, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you. I think it goes against the point of Wikipedia to change the cause of death. The fact euthanasia isn't legal in most countries shouldn't matter, it is legal in Belgium and when every reliable source mentions it is euthanasia, it should be euthanasia. Deathisallaroundus (talk) 09:00, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

This section may now be moot, as another editor has changed it to euthanasia and it ends there for me. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 15:27, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Dina Kathelyn

The Dina Kathelyn article does not give an exact DOD. The only reliable source [1], published on 4 October, translates as "passed away earlier this week". User:Rusted AutoParts asserts that this Facebook page is sufficient to pin the death on 1 October.[2] Since when is Facebook a reliable source for anything, including confirmation of a date of death? WWGB (talk) 06:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I have seen social media be utilized on here, and on other language wikis, on the sole basis of if they were of actual connection to the person in question. That is Kathelyn's Facebook, with people associated with Kathelyn making the announcement of death. I thought it at least sufficient to corroborate the DOD at the least. Rusted AutoParts 06:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I would normally leave such niceties alone, but whenever editors at the person article do not accept social media accounts of death dates, I'm sure we should go with that here. So I've made the change to announced on 4th. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 07:31, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I’m not seeing any disputes in her article history over the usage of the post, do you just mean that it wasn’t utilized on it at all? I only just noticed the post myself yesterday, and the Dutch wiki only found it on the 19th. I also don’t see a dispute over there over it. Rusted AutoParts 14:18, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

No, I mean the person article maintains month (October) and year (2024) only as reliably confirmed elements of her death, both in the lead-in and the infobox, so we should too. And its article editors know in reality that they should not be relying on social media reports for sourcing, as it is clearly laid out in Wikipedia guidelines. It's that simple. Ref ^(chew)(do) 14:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

If it was someone else’s account stating “oh no I heard through the grapevine that X passed away on Friday”, I wouldn’t be using it because the account has no tethers to the person. They may have known them, that someone else may also be notable but it’s not coming from the persons own account. I am only paying the Facebook post credence because that is Kathelyn’s own account, making announcement of death that also stands as the earliest point in which this news was conveyed. I would have rather it have been tethered into a source but I don’t see why it can’t be used for supplement corroboration. Rusted AutoParts 15:13, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Look, if you go and change it at the person article based on what you say, including a day of death rather than just month and year, it can be changed here without any feeling that something might be wrong. I won't add the death day at the person article because I don't use social media for sourcing at all, therefore I can't guarantee confirmation of the date. When it changes at Dina Kathelyn it can safely change here, is what I'm trying to say. Ref ^(chew)(do) 15:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Denys Graham

Hi @Rusted AutoParts:, I've restored Denys Graham to the Deaths in 2024 page. Firstly, your assessment of the source "feeling a bit bloggy"... If you take a look at the home page of the website, it's abundantly clear that it's an organisation for professional actors: "Actors & Writers London (AWL) is London’s longest-running professional play-reading forum for actors and writers. It was established in 1973 at Hammersmith’s Riverside Studios and was known as Hammersmith Actors and Writers Group until July 2004." I can't see any evidence of it being a personal blog of any kind. Secondly, if you're unsure of a source and want to discuss it – and it's not one that has been previously ruled out – we have the talk section of Deaths in 2024 for that. Thanks Jkaharper (talk) 20:36, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

If it's not a blog, fair enough. It was one of two issues I took with the source however. The second being it also reads akin to an IMDB page/resume. And outside of the RIP next to his name there's no real frame of reference about his death, no reporting on the death. When it happened, when it was even announced as well. Like when was the page updated? Rusted AutoParts 20:42, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

With regards to when that actors' organisation's page was updated... On 25 October, an anonymous IP kept adding a date of death of 24 October to Graham's Wiki page. I was the user who kept removing it as it was completely unsourced. Each day on Google I searched to see if any sources appeared. The first day I got a hit was today, 29 October, and that organisation's tribute page appeared. Not exactly scientific but if it was live before appearing on Google it will only be by a day or two – we can't be perfectionists on here all of the time. I'd rather keep Graham on there for this exact reason though – having worked in the media myself I can tell you for certainty that obituary writers look at the Deaths in 2024 page. If Graham's death is known to them, they may go away and write a piece and with their own research produce a full date/place of death etc. --Jkaharper (talk) 21:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

If you want other opinions, I'd say the webpage being used for the source is bona fide, if not a little cheap-looking for an organisation, but certainly doesn't take the form of a blog (there is no comments section at the bottom, for one). Seems very useable to me. Ref ^(chew)(do) 21:51, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Alan Simpson DOD

Just putting this out there for others who might’ve ran into the same thing as myself. Presently, Alan Simpson, 84, is marked as a death announced on the 25th. I found two obituaries for two other Alan Simpson’s who died in England within the last few weeks: Alan Simpson, 76 and Alan Simpson, 55 (who happened to pass away in the same town the runner Alan was born in). Just putting that out there, presently the Alan Simpson listed here doesn’t have an obituary/funeral notice I can find. Rusted AutoParts 11:39, 2 November 2024 (UTC)