Talk:Deaths in February 2023

Strougal

It is perfectly clear that all the information about his death rests on the statement by Jiri Dolejs, who is explicitly quoted saying nothing more than "Yes it's true, he died." Sources are explicit in saying "No details were given." His date and place of death are currently not public knowledge. If you force it, you can of course find secondary reports which misinterpret the primary reports, and state that he died on the date when his death was reported. This goes for every case of this kind. But it is absurd to take e.g. a short Spanish-language text by Czech Radio as a reliable source for a claim the Czech Radio in Czech clearly doesn't give (nor in English). Mewulwe (talk) 10:44, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

The date of death has now been confirmed by the Washington Post (see here). Renewal6 (talk) 10:17, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but that is not a new source. It literally says: "A former Communist Party politician, Jiri Dolejs, confirmed the death in a statement to media but provided no further details." Thus it is clearly derivative of the Czech reports and adds a misinterpretation regarding the date. You can hardly assume they did original research regarding the date, and then failed to say this explicitly after mentioning Dolejs' lack of details. Mewulwe (talk) 16:54, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Well that's now you just wading into assumption territory though. WaPo, like the New York Times, would state "the death was confirmed but no other details were provided". So unless you can prove definitively they just slapped the 6th in there based off this Spanish language text you take issue with this is case closed. Rusted AutoParts 17:22, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Huh? I'm not suggesting the WaPo copied the Spanish text, rather they both made the same false assumption, which happens almost every time someone dies without a date given: people just assume the death occurred the day it's reported. Given that the sources which originally broke the news are clearly not giving a date and there has been no indication of any new information being obtained, the date remains unknown. And you don't decide when a case is closed. Mewulwe (talk) 09:19, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

You also don’t decide someone’s made a false assumption without evidence. Rusted AutoParts 16:03, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

I gave the grounds for that assumption, whereas you're just saying WaPo = RS and ignore any further argument. Mewulwe (talk) 16:17, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

What grounds? “You can hardly assume they did original research regarding the date”? “they both made the same false assumption, which happens almost every time someone dies without a date given”? You mean these totally speculative statements is enough? I strongly disagree. Rusted AutoParts 16:28, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

If WaPo had independently obtained more detailed information about the death, it would make absolutely no sense to even mention the earlier Dolejs confirmation. As it is, its text implies that the date was part of the Dolejs confirmation, which from the Czech sources it clearly wasn't, thus it is extremely likely to be a misinterpretation. Mewulwe (talk) 17:45, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

This still reeks of just drawing your own conclusions as opposed to a factual "they definitively based it off this initial statement". There's no "As per Dolejs he died on this day", so for all intents and purposes the date of death sentence in WaPo is independent from them referencing Dolejs statement. Rusted AutoParts 17:54, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Perfectly reasonable conclusions as they have to be drawn all the time in evaluating sources. The Czech Radio case pretty much proves my point, unless you want to claim that Czech Radio chose to publish the date only in its Spanish version for some reason, while omitting it in the Czech and English equivalents. It is a common error. So why would you need positive proof that WaPo made that same error rather than considering the likelihood in the overall circumstances? Mewulwe (talk) 20:15, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Because outside of your conspiracy theory there's no rational evidence to deem that WaPo either conjured the date up themselves, or is basing it off this one particular Spanish language translation of a Czech report. Demonstrate he provably died earlier or that they did in fact make the assumption. Either case, the source states DOD was the 6th, and no reasonable reason to discount it is present. No one else has agreed with you up to this point so do not restore the death announced tag. Rusted AutoParts 22:12, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Now you're just bullshitting. "Conspiracy" theory? It is a theory about a common error. And then you're repeating the nonsense about them basing it on the Spanish text, which no one claimed. As I just said, both the Spanish text (in which case it is obvious) and the WaPo likely made the same common error independently. I presented a perfectly reasonable rationale. I might add that if WaPo did any original research, they would probably have come up with more than the date, but also the place or cause of death. No one else has agreed with you up to this point either since no one else has taken part in the substantive discussion. But between the two of us this is indeed not going anywhere, so maybe others can comment. Mewulwe (talk) 09:15, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

It’s bullshitting to ask that you prove they’re just inferring the date? Also, The Telegraph also states a DOD of the 6th, they inferring too, or is every source available at the moment or in the future just inferring? Rusted AutoParts 14:39, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

When a trusted source, like a newspaper (Washington Post), publishes something it is assumed that they have done sufficient research to confirm what they publish. Otherwise the whole concept of Reliable Sources falls. Therefore, Rusted AutoParts is right. --Marbe166 (talk) 09:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that the concept of original research also applies to how editors process and/or interpret sources used here, and the over-thinking/over-analysis that sometimes follows. If something like the Washington Post hasn't self-checked itself I'm afraid we're in a very bad place. Even though it's a paywalled source and I can't see the content, I'm happy to accept that others have referenced it freely and feel its veracity is beyond reproach. Ref ^(chew)(do) 11:56, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

As such though, having established that fact with the editor, you do not have to re-introduce that paywalled source into the Death list - you have referenced it, and that is enough to prove the point that he died on 6th and was not announced on the 6th. We should always be looking to avoid paywalls wherever possible. Ref ^(chew)(do) 11:37, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

George T. Miller

According to a small item in The Weekend Australian of Saturday 18 February (which must have been printed in the early hours of Saturday at the latest, since it was delivered to my doorstep by 6am), he died "on Friday evening", 17 February. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:25, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

I will watch out for that when being offered in linkable sources, because it's very difficult to use your anecdotal testament as a reference in the list. Ref ^(chew)(do) 00:32, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Although paywalled, The Australian asserts that he "died in Melbourne on Friday", so I've quoted that paywalled source in edit summaries changing the DoD to 17th. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 07:41, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Cheers. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:30, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Looking for clarification

This is in regards to an addition I'm going to make in Deaths in August 2020, Arthur W. Chickering. In the obituary, it begins with After making the decision to die on his own terms, not eating or drinking, he passed away peacefully surrounded by his daughters and held in the thoughts of their spouses, his son, his grandchildren and dear friends. With the ceasing of eating, does that constitute a form of suicide? I do not wish to add that as a COD if that's inaccurate, or if there's a different term for it. Rusted AutoParts 18:12, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't think inaction really qualifies as a suicide. It is fairly common for the elderly not to eat or drink if they're in bad shape. Same as how a 100 year old electing not to be dragged to the hospital to undergo operations wouldn't be a suicide either. Nohomersryan (talk) 19:41, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Refusing food is just refusing food. It's a bizarre right that every human has to not take food, and can't be seen as a suicide. You'd be correct in putting the cause of death as "from the effects of starvation" though, as that's exactly what will have occurred. Ref ^(chew)(do) 23:01, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

I've added him to the page. Didn't include a COD as I wasn't certain how to phrase it, the way you did, "complications from starvation" or just starvation by itself. I could be just overthinking it I just don't wanna mischaracterize the way they passed in anyway. Rusted AutoParts 02:58, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Anyone who is 93 years old probably doesn't need a CoD anyway, as nature often takes its course easily around that age. Ref ^(chew)(do) 13:21, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

There is a name for this behaviour. It's called "voluntarily stopping eating and drinking" (VSED). The ultimate cause of death is dehydration.[1] WWGB (talk) 10:06, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Bob Richards

I don't know how to do this and i'm sorry, but could someone add 'Minister, and white supremacist politician' to his death thing? Death editor (talk) 01:11, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Not exactly - politician should appear, as he ran for a US presidency, but minister, not so in my opinion. And please always leave out the non-neutral rhetoric when you edit. Ref ^(chew)(do) 10:12, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Jack Billion (25 February)

The linked article redirects to an anime site. A better one would be https://www.keloland.com/news/local-news/jack-billion-2006-democratic-gov-candidate-dies/ 2600:1700:4EF0:1360:94DA:EDBC:A291:66B9 (talk) 11:14, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

If you check the edit summaries for the main page, you will see that KeloLand is blocked in Europe, and therefore should be passed over for a source that is viewable in Europe. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 12:06, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

(I don't understand the reference to an anime site redirect though. The source is a direct link to Inside Memorial, a researched tribute site which names its journalist/editor at the bottom of the article.) Ref ^(chew)(do) 12:10, 27 February 2023 (UTC)