Talk:Deaths in August 2023

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles

Death Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Lists Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ListsWikipedia:WikiProject ListsTemplate:WikiProject ListsList articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Years Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Years, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Years on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.YearsWikipedia:WikiProject YearsTemplate:WikiProject YearsYears articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

History Low‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

2023 Wagner Group plane crash

Pronouncing the two notable occupants as dead (if they were actually IN the aircraft) is not a truthful statement within the entry added recently, as at this post's timestamp, and relies on massive assumptions. Both of the notables' own articles state "presumed dead", and the event article itself states that there are "unconfirmed reports" that the two were on the transport at all. This is a clear case of jumping the gun for this list of what are supposed to be reliably sourced deaths. If you can't accept my recent change to the lead-in used in the Deaths in 2023 list, then the whole entry should be removed until deaths ARE confirmed - unequivocably and reliably so. Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:24, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yevgeny Prigozhin just died. Carman9990 (talk) 21:16, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Still not confirmed at his article. Ref ^(chew)(do) 00:44, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Updated source for our page. I don't care about individuals' pages. Wylie pedia @ 00:53, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is frankly ridiculous that the deaths of Prighozhin and Utkin are being left off this page - every single respectabele media outlet is reporting on it, Prighozhin's own Wagner-group is confirming it, public gestures of mourning in Russia have been reported, world leaders are commenting on it, the Russian air travel authorities are reporting that the two were on the passenger list and there is absolutely no evidence to give the slightest creedence to assumptions they weren't on board. Leaving this out is just plain silly, and goes against common sense and sensible application of Wikipedia guidelines. This kind of thing is harming Wikipedia. 82.176.221.176 (talk) 08:04, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Entries here are based on absolutely certain facts supported by reliable sources. Currently (see my timestamp), although the esteemed BBC seem certain that the notables have died, other respected outlets are waiting to see. As should we. Ref ^(chew)(do) 08:11, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And that is exactly what I mean by abusing or misapplying Wikipedia policies. There is no reasonable doubt. There are confirmations from the aviation authorities and from the Wagner group itself. These are good enough for gold-standard news media, including the BBC as you mention. Wiki guidelines are now misapplied to keep this out - and why? There is no good reason. It's just another example of the decentralized bureaucracy that has formed and is seriously harming Wikipedia - the way guidelines are bent and selectively applied for the apparent sake of bureaucracy itself. Disturbing. 82.176.221.176 (talk) 08:24, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, let's look at this in the abstract: a plane crash has been confirmed. The fact that 10 dead have been recovered and that the authorities state there are no survivors has been confirmed. The passenger and crew list has been released by aviation authorities, and it contains 10 names. The organization Prighozhin led confirms his death. All of this is reported by numerous sources considered undoubtedly reliable by Wikipedia. There is no way this would be considered insufficient sourcing for reporting the death of anyone else. The only argument not to list Prighozhin and Utkin is that the Russian *government* has not given confirmation. Even though there is no reason to assume they ever will/would explicitly do so. This is Kafka-level bizarre. 82.176.221.176 (talk) 08:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Putin himself has given condolences to Prigozhin's family, and speaks of him in the past tense. Tenorlove (talk) 21:42, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the IP. The deaths were sourced here by a reputable news agency. If any agency is mistaken and said entries are found to be alive (no information has yet to contradict it), then we can take it out. We're going on 48 hours after the fact. I understand other agencies are waiting to see, mainly because the "assassination" speculation, but, again, that's not what this page is about. Also, the BBC link above and I used on the page constantly updates. Ten people are still dead, including these two. Wylie pedia @ 08:58, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Assumptions and second-guessing have no place in what we do here. Ref ^(chew)(do) 16:20, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

May one ask what would constitute as sufficient proof? Hexmaster.se (talk) 21:30, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This whole argument against publishing the notable victims of the plane crash is bordering on conspiracy theory. What real evidence is there that the victims are not as claimed by the large majority of international major media? And even if such survivor theories turn out to be true, all of us will be surprised to some extent and that is the proper time to remove them from this list of notable deaths. Wholeflaffer (talk) 19:20, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

High profile but uncertain? (Yevgeny Prigozhin)

[1]. @Folengo . I was expecting to see Prigozhin mentioned on Main Page in Recent Deaths. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:06, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is not the place to discuss the Main Page. WWGB (talk) 07:15, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's as may be - if deaths are not confirmed beyond doubt, it certainly won't appear there, as it shouldn't here. Ref ^(chew)(do) 08:08, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

NYT clearly says his death is unconfirmed. Official confirmation may be quite far away and of course we are not a news agency, so no need to jump the gun. --Folengo (talk) 09:43, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources around the world, and Putin himself, have acknowledged the deaths. We follow reliable sources; we are not bound to The New York Times. I don't mind "presumed dead" in the stem of the listing if that softens the statement. WWGB (talk) 10:09, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think it seems strange to use "presumed dead" in their article but list them as confirmed deaths here. Has that ever been done before? We need to make up our minds. Are they dead or not? Personally I don't care which as long as we are consequent here and on their articles. DrKilleMoff (talk) 17:35, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One of my previous edits added "presumed dead" instead of "dead", but that was changed some time ago. Ref ^(chew)(do) 08:44, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Deaths now confirmed by Russia.[2] WWGB (talk) 12:05, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - it's a crying shame that the NY Times source confirming their deaths is paywalled. Ref ^(chew)(do) 21:16, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Straw poll

By my count, the current tally is 6:3 in favour of listing the deaths:

For: 82.176.221.176, Badmotorfinger, Tenorlove, Wholeflaffer, WWGB, Wyliepedia
Against: DrKilleMoff, Folengo, Refsworldlee

WWGB (talk) 10:35, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dead as per list but alive as per article

This death is nowhere to be found in our article about Aparna Nair. Do we have policy on that, i.e. listing a death here while the article remains untouched? SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:46, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is not uncommon for the deceased to appear here before the death is reported in the deceased's article. WWGB (talk) 10:55, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And, in cases like this, a sourced report of death, it would be suitable to update the article of the person in question, wouldn't it? --Marbe166 (talk) 11:33, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it would, for the person listing the death here to do so, not leave that for someone else to clean up. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:44, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See Aparna P. Nair. Thanks. Wylie pedia @ 16:14, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

John Quenby

The reliable source for his death having been 29th is the LinkedIn post which has been removed as unreliable (a post on his page, by his widow: looks reliable to me). See Talk:John Quenby for discussion. The current statement is incorrect, but I am not a regular on this page so not familiar with the local rules. Please would someone have a look at it? Thanks. PamD 07:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

LinkedIn is only reliable for " uncontroversial self-description". Since Quenby did not report his own death, it is not reliable. I have moved his listing to 31 August, the date on which his death was announced. It can be moved if/when his DOD is reported in a reliable source. WWGB (talk) 10:57, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I second that interpretation of when LinkedIn is allowed. Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:59, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]