Talk:Death of Michael Jackson/Archive 4

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Web Traffic Graph

http://www.google.com/trends?q=michael+jackson may illustrate the magnitude of the load placed on the internet after Michael Jackson died better than the current image, which is of Wikimedia's servers CPU load, and Google is currently the most-trafficked website on the internet. Ilikefood (talk) 23:27, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Google's disclaimer: "Please keep in mind that several approximations are used when computing these results." Second, are those graphs copyrighted? TechOutsider (talk) 05:27, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

The will

There are a couple of errors in the discussion of Jackson's will: It gives all assets to the Michael Jackson Family Trust, to be administered by his mother Katherine, and grants her custody of his children; or, if she had pre-deceased him, to singer Diana Ross. The will leaves nothing to his father Joseph and specifically states that his former wife Debbie Rowe has been omitted intentionally.

First, the will does not say that the Michael Jackson Family Trust is to be administered by Katherine. The only time she is mentioned is as the guardian of the persons and estates of Michael's children. The trust is to be administered by the trustee or trustees of that trust, whoever they are -- they would be named in the trust document itself. Katherine might be a trustee, or she might not, I don't know.

Second, it is misleading to say that the will leaves nothing to Joseph, because the will itself leaves the entire estate to the trust. No individual is specifically identified in the will as being a beneficiary. The trust document, which is referred to in the will as being a separate document prepared several months earlier, might provide for Joseph to receive something, or it might not. This article should not imply that Michael specifically disinherited Joseph, because we don't know the contents of the trust. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:19, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm watching coverage on MJ right now on CNN and your assessment is correct. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:31, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I think the way it's worded now is correct. Thanks, Metro. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 08:52, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

A scan of MJ's will is published here: http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/0701_mj_will_wm.pdf 92.255.141.115 (talk) Artem S. Tashkinov at work —Preceding undated comment added 22:06, 2 July 2009 (UTC).

Spelling error

In the Funeral column of the article "Neverland" has been spelt as "Nevertheland". I'm new here and not sure how to fix, so hopefully someone can this for me :)

Cheers Simplistic one (talk) 06:35, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you! :) SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 06:48, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Soma link

The Soma link in the article under medications that MJ was using at time of death goes to the wrong Soma. It should link to the muscle relaxer carisoprodol (brand name: Soma or Vanadom), not the mythical soma of Hinduism . I'm not sure how to fix this myself. This is the correct link on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carisoprodol

Chiba-usako (talk) 08:27, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Fixed, many thanks. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 08:51, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Discrepancy with Childrens names

In the section "Collapse" it's stated "that Jackson's 12-year-old son, Prince Michael, was present during the resuscitation attempts." In the "family" section Prince Michael is said to been born in 2002, which would make him nine years old, while Michael Joseph is the 12-year-old, being born in 1997. --88.130.185.71 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:29, 2 July 2009 (UTC).

I've fixed it, thanks! Digitelle (talk) 17:38, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Suicides

What of the fans (I think there were 12 of them) who committed suicide in response to MJ's death? Stonemason89 (talk) 01:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Seems nothing more than a beat-up. No evidence whatsoever in reliable mainstream sources. WWGB (talk) 01:18, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Health

"Grace Rwaramba, a former nanny who looked after Jackson's children, told writer Daphne Barak that Jackson's health was seriously compromised. She said he was a drug addict, that she had had to pump his stomach more than once, and that he had stopped looking after himself, becoming dirty and unkempt.[13]"

Grace Rwaramba has issued a statement saying that she did not pump Michael Jackson's stomach and has not spoken to the Times, therefore this section should be removed completely or edited to read:

(Source: http://www.intent.com/mallikachopra/blog/statement-grace-rwaramba-regarding-michael-jackson )

"Contrary to reports that Grace Rwaramba, a former nanny who looked after Jackson's children, had told Times writer Daphne Barak that Jackson's health was seriously compromised, she has released a statement saying that she has not spoken to the Times Online and that she never pumped Michael Jackson's stomach [http://www.intent.com/mallikachopra/blog/statement-grace-rwaramba-regarding-michael-jackson ]." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chris mouland3 (talk • contribs) 08:38, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Done --X7000matrix (talk) 12:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

It's well-sourced, so it can't just be removed, and the denial is on some kind of blog. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 13:05, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

--This statement above is false. "well-sourced" does not mean that removal cannot occur. "Information which references a reputable reference work should not be removed from Wikipedia without cause." Notice the "without cause." The cause here would be "credence" and relevance. Furthermore the sources are hardly "reputable references" Wolfpeaceful (talk) 16:55, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Deepak Chopra

I find Dr Chopra's comments to be very incisive and poignant. Jackson's outcome could have been much brighter with more appropriate intervention, in both the short term and long term prior to his death. The real villain(s) in this sordid situation are gradually being exposed. WWGB (talk) 11:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

He was interviewed on CNN recently and was very impressive. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 11:17, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

AEG's Behaviour after death

Proposing the following additions to AEG section or a new section. Linked bbc articles feature evidence for the figures, quotes, as well as emotional responses.

AEG has also been accused of attempting to profit from the death of Michael Jackson, who was due to perform at London's 02 Arena in 2009/2010. While refunds of the approximately 750,000 tickets (at £55-£75 each) are available to customers that request it, the promoter has offered to send out "souvenir" tickets providing fans of the singer waive their right to the refund.[1]

Many fans believe this is an unfair proposal as customers were already due to receive the tickets, and had paid to attend the concerts. They therefore feel that a souvenir tickets is an unsuitable and expensive substitute for the live performance, and that a partial refund should also be offered, or that the monies raised donated to a charity.

The company estimates that between 40-50% of it's customers will request the original tickets in lieu of the refund, which will save the company $40 million in refunds. This is in addition to future profits from any material that forms a part of the "This Is It" concerts - the intellectual property of AEG.[2]

This has led to a sense of betrayal and exploitation by the company whose president, Randy Phillips, was quoted as saying: "Since he [Jackson] loved his fans in life, it is incumbent upon us to treat them with the same reverence and respect after his death." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Corp-editor (talk • contribs) 22:00, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Converted the links with ref tags to external links for easier access. Originally, I had to click edit to see the URLs obstructed by the ref tags. Now, I can just click on the links. ThaMoonwalker (talk) 23:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

The comments can not be used in the article - as quotes or sources for information. The comments are made by non-notable people, and some don't even provide their last name. Stripped of the comments, neither article makes any claims about how "fair" AEG is being to ticketholders. Nevertheless, the information presented in the article, not the comments section, should be incorporated in the article. ThaMoonwalker (talk) 23:57, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Tribute concert

I have begun an article on the tribute concert. 03md 00:27, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Removed for now (Quotations from public figures)

Following Jackson's death, many public figures gave press statements.

"I am heartbroken. My prayers go out to the Jackson family, and my heart goes out to his children. Let us remember him for his unparalleled contribution to the world of music, his generosity of spirit in his quest to heal the world and the joy he brought to his millions of devoted fans throughout the world. I feel blessed to have performed with him several times and to call him my friend. No artist will ever take his place. His star will shine forever."

-Mariah Carey

"I am absolutely devastated at this tragic and unexpected news. For Michael to be taken away from us so suddenly at such a young age, I just don't have the words. Divinity brought our souls together on The Wiz and allowed us to do what we were able to throughout the 80's. To this day, the music we created together on "Off The Wall," "Thriller" and "Bad" is played in every corner of the world and the reason for that is because he had it all…talent, grace, professionalism and dedication. He was the consummate entertainer and his contributions and legacy will be felt upon the world forever. I've lost my little brother today, and part of my soul has gone with him."

-Quincy Jones

"I can't stop crying over the sad news. I have always admired Michael Jackson. The world has lost one of the greats, but his music will live on forever! My heart goes out to his three children and other members of his family. God bless."

-Madonna

"I feel privileged to have hung out and worked with Michael. He was a massively talented boy man with a gentle soul. His music will be remembered forever and my memories of our time together will be happy ones."

-Paul McCartney

"I can't stop crying, this is too sudden and shocking. I am unable to imagine this. My heart is hurting. I am in prayer for his kids and the family."

-Diana Ross

"A friend of Michael's for the last 35 years, I call on people around the world to pray for him and his family in the hour. I have known Michael since we were both teens, worked with him, marched for him, hosted him at our House of Justice headquarters in New York, and we joined together to eulogize our mutual idol, James Brown. I have known him at his high moments and his low moments and I know he would want us to pray for his family."

-Al Sharpton

"I was so excited to see his show in London. We were going to be on tour in Europe at the same time and I was going to fly in to see him. He has been an inspiration throughout my entire life and I'm devastated he's gone!"

-Britney Spears

"My heart... my mind...are broken. I loved Michael with all my soul and I can't imagine life without him. We had so much in common and we had such loving fun together. I was packing up my clothes to go to London for his opening when I heard the news. I still can't believe it. I don't want to believe it. It can't be so. He will live in my heart forever but it's not enough. My life feels so empty. I don't think anyone knew how much we loved each other. The purest most giving love I've ever known. Oh God! I'm going to miss him. I can't yet imagine life without him. But I guess with God's help ... I'll learn. I keep looking at the photo he gave me of himself, which says, 'To my true love Elizabeth, I love you forever.' And, I will love HIM forever."

-Elizabeth Taylor

"I can't find the words right now to express how deeply sadden [sic] I am by Michael's passing. We have lost a genius and a true ambassador of not only Pop music, but of all music. He has been an inspiration to multiple generations and I will always cherish the moments I shared with him on stage and all of the things I learned about music from him and the time we spent together. My heart goes out to his family and loved ones."

-Justin Timberlake

I've removed these as causing more harm than good. Reach consensus in which, if any, are encyclopedic and worthy of including otherwise this certainly will be a WP:quote farm. -- Banjeboi 18:06, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

The quotes from Quincy Jones and Paul McCartney should be put back in, as their relationship with him is much older and solid than that of the other people. Grundle2600 (talk) 18:11, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Quotes from QJ and PM may be ok. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

• Quotations from people should be introduced and explained in the prose through the personal or professional relationship with each of those people. Quotations by other people should be removed, as they are a natural source of perennial contention and since their encyclopedic value is very near nil. 84.44.143.160 (talk) 18:18, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Note the professional relationships in the text. Cite them if challenged. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:25, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Truth be told, Taylor's quote could also be ok, they go way back. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:30, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree here. Certainly, Taylor, McCartney, and Jones should stay, but the others? Not so much. Unitanode 19:03, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

• I have changed my perspective, and now beleive these should not be included, in the manner they are presented here, because
• Wikipedia editors are not judges of the level of personal relationships between one individual and another.
• The body of the text does not currently convey a need for these quotes.
• Each one of these quotes may be better suited elsewhere.
• It is uneccessary to list every celebrity that comments on Michael's death. Wolfpeaceful (talk) 18:44, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I think some may be helpful if trimmed way back and integrated as we would any other article. Much of this seems filler, no disrespect intended, and pretty much what you would expect someone to say. It may be wisest to see what other things occur over the next few days and what mainstream media report as notable people in Jackson's life. Quincy Jones would be obvious for their long-term working together. I would use "To this day, the music we created [...] is played in every corner of the world [...]. He was the consummate entertainer and his contributions and legacy will be felt upon the world forever." -- Banjeboi 18:59, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

--just make sure that the mainstream media that you pull from are verifiable sources, and not The Onion. And as you said... "as we would any other article"... which is why I said "these should not be included, in the manner they are presented here". I do agree that "some" could be integrated... but how many is some? Two, three, four, five? I would think that three (if they are well integrated and trimmed) is a fair compromise. Also, when I made mention of them being more suited to other articles... the one that stood out in my mind was Macartney's quote... it would be a good match for the Say, Say, Say article in my opinion. Wolfpeaceful (talk) 19:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

• I think people here are forgetting that the man was married to Lisa Marie Presley. However long, her statement holds more than the rest. QJ should be included too, and maybe Liz Taylor as they were so close. Mc8755 (talk) 22:27, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

• I saw that we just include the quote of Al Sharpton, because he was the one to first talk to the press about the death of Jackson. --  Jonverve  ^{Talk  Contrib}  23:19, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

• I just added the quote from Al Sharpton and details about him talking to the media first, with this edit here. If you don't like it, please comment on your thoughts, and don't just delete it.   Jonverve  ^{Talk  Contrib}  23:32, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

• I moved it to the grief section where the other celebrity comments are, and shortened it a little. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 02:28, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

• I still think this Sharpton quote belongs in the media coverage area, not grief section -- just because other celebrities comments are here, does not mean this should be, remember this was an actual press conference, not just a quote carried by a news agency.   Jonverve  ^{Talk  Contrib}  12:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I think that the new Rush Limbaugh quote is the most entertaining, and of course, far more worthy of attention than justified, because of course, "El Rushbo" knows more about the situation, and has better opinions, than all of us who will ever restrain and post here instead of the article itself(???), and he therefore is a credible, notable, and appropriately-weighted source for whatever he says about Americans, politics, media, music, or anything else he talks about. If nothing else, it's good advice for Wikipedia, I guess. Steveozone (talk) 05:06, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Steveo, Nobility does not mean that which quote you think is notable in personal sentiment (i.e. "the most entertaining") should be included. Notability refers to the nature of the context of the text in the article (i.e. "what is notable within the confines of the text) Also, I wouldn't consider Limbaugh a "credible, notable, etc. source" He's simply an "opinionated" man. While we can verify what he says... we can't verify that what he says is necessarily verifiable in itself. Also, I disagree that it's good advice for wikipedia to take whatever a Radio Talk-host has to say as verbatim. Wolfpeaceful (talk) 16:40, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Hear, hear. I'm glad the irony was not lost on you ;-). I'm quite happy to see that following my comments, the original ridiculous two paragraph recap of Limbaugh's remarks was pared down substantially, although I would have been happier to see it eliminated entirely (as was much of the irrelevant "celebrity reaction" material that previously cluttered the article at the time). All for the same reasons that you've described. I take it we agree that he receives attention that is far more than justified? Steveozone (talk) 04:49, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Some initial confusion

"There was some initial confusion, with the Los Angeles Times and the BBC reporting that he was in a coma."

Why was there some initial confusion in the media. Where did coma confusion originate from. This could be covered in Death of Michael Jackson#Media coverage. QuackGuru (talk) 06:47, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not in the sources so I removed it. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 06:50, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Why was it reported he was in a coma. What caused the confusion. QuackGuru (talk) 06:56, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know. I didn't see any reports that he was in a coma. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 07:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I've seen reports where they said he was in a coma. Of course, there's so many different reports swirling around, I have no idea what's accurate. BTW, I don't think that the opening sentence is correct about MJ getting a shot of Demerol before he died. I think that the doctor is denying this and the media has backed away from this claim. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:12, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

They're now reporting that Diprivan was found in his home.[3] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:50, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I also saw that on AP, citing an anon LAPD source. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:12, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Some sources for the Coma reports: Google cache of CNN's report he was in a Coma. LA Times reporting he was found comatose, updated following confirmation of death —Preceding unsigned comment added by Corp-editor (talk • contribs) 22:10, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

A source claimed he was in a deep coma.[4] But why did the source claim he was in a coma when he was not. QuackGuru (talk) 04:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Image of Jackson

I added an image of Jackson to the section after the lead, and it was reverted after one minute. [5] What is the problem with having one image of him in an article that's about him? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 11:22, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Placement. It's in a section called "Collapse". He did not look anything like that (1990 photo) when he collapsed. WWGB (talk) 11:26, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

He did before it though. I'd like to put it back. It seems odd to have no images of him. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 11:35, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with both of you: I think for now, the free image SV put in would be ok somewhere in the article (maybe not the collapse section though), while a free image taken in the last few months of his life would be much more helpful. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:00, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I've added one of the images taken in the Staples Center on June 23 instead. I've claimed fair use for it, given how ubiquitous it is, and how we don't have an image of him where he looks the way he did at the end of his life. We'll see whether someone challenges it. I may email AEG Live and ask if they'll release it. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 06:55, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Sales info

Does anyone have any sales info for other countries, not just the US and UK. — Please comment R² 02:20, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Jordan Chandler admits he lied about molestation

I've read various reports on this, but nothing seems to be from a reliable source. If this has any backing to it, it could have merit. The article claims that since Michael died, Jordan could no longer lie (the connection to his death), but I'm highly suspicious of the various claims. I'm not going to bother posting the number of links, because I don't think they're reliable enough. Anyone care to dig up some info? Blindeffigy (talk) 11:41, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Doing some looking around, it looks to be a self-sustained rumor. People said that they've "heard" it, which is tabloid speak for "This is pure wishful thinking." The fact that there is no OR says "This is garbage." Titanium Dragon (talk) 12:23, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Join grief and tributes section? Or maybe put them closer together?

Since the two concepts are quite interlinked, would it be wise to merge the sections together, or move them next to each other? — Please comment R² 23:27, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

We could certainly move them. I think to join them would make the section too long. Also, bear in mind that this will be updated (i.e. radically tightened and/or replaced with more recent material) soon enough; we can't keep all this in the article forever. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 23:35, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks cool. — Please comment R² 23:39, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Diprivan

Should we mention MJ at the Milk of amnesia article? 76.66.193.20 (talk) 23:41, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

No. Actually, I take that back. I suppose an abuse section would be fine. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:32, 2 July 2009

(UTC)

No. Could we please wait until there is ONE official report. As of July 5, 09 there are none. If MJ actually died from propofol then eventually it would be appropriate to add one line to that article. Not yet. This is not a gossip paper, it's an encyclopedia. EtherDoc (talk) 01:21, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Downloads

Realist, how do you know the downloads were in the U.S. only? Source is here. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 23:26, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Because the title says "Michael Jackson Breaks Billboard Charts Records". Billboard=USA. Also, the entire article is about US sales. — Please comment R² 23:31, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

But wouldn't downloads be worldwide? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 23:33, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

No, each country has it's own itunes data base. That's why Number Ones topped the Itunes chart of 13 different countries. — Please comment R² 23:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay, you obviously know more about it than me. Thanks. :) SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 23:40, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

No problem, anything I can do to help :) — Please comment R² 14:28, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Article Categories

The categories "Cardiovascular disease deaths in California" and "Deaths from myocardial infarction" both appear to be inaccurate based on the information in the article, let alone sources. There is nothing in the sources or the article indicating that Jackson has been diagnosed with any cardiovascular disease, or that such disease contributed to his death. As for myocardial infarction, while it is true that "cardiac arrest" can be caused by infarction, the two are separate and different concepts. There does not appear to be anything in the article or the sources that would establish that Jackson's apparent cardiac arrest was caused by myocardial infarction (and indeed the speculation regarding drug reaction or overdose would indicate that it was not). I think that there may have been some misunderstanding of the terms in adding these categories. Steveozone (talk) 05:32, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 09:12, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

TMZ and Time Warner

I'd like to add that TMZ is owned by Time Warner, as it's being used as a source throughout this situation, by us and everyone else, so it's important to emphasize that it isn't any old website set up by a group of individuals. My edit was reverted here. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 09:12, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I edited this because it seemed to make the sentence run more smoothly. TMZ.com is already wikilinked, so there is more detail in the full article. It is worth pointing out that TMZ is not a personal blog like Perez Hilton or Matt Drudge. The TMZ report of Jackson's death at 2:44 PM is fascinating because it touched off probably the biggest single edit war in Wikipedia's history. Some wanted to run with the report, while others cautioned that it was not a traditional WP:RS. Harvey Levin (TMZ's boss) repudiated this strongly. Over at Michael Jackson there is a distrust of any tabloid source, due to endless attempts to add that he converted to Islam on the basis of a single report in The Sun.[6] The Sun and The Times are both owned by Rupert Murdoch's News International, but there is a big difference between the perceived WP:RS of the two sources.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 09:29, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. I'm always glad to see editors who care about making the writing flow well. :)

I agree about the sourcing issues. It's been interesting to watch what is being accepted and what not. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs}

Place of death

Okay, let's get some consensus on this. I changed place of death, logically, to the place where he was pronounced dead, since it can be presumed until we know otherwise that he was legally alive until legally pronounced dead. Someone has changed it back to his home. Can we decide at least until the autopsy report comes out whether to go with where it is rumoured the medics wanted to pronounce him dead, or where he actually was pronounced dead. Since we don't know for sure, my vote 100% goes for the hospital. Sky83 (talk) 10:41, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Scrap that, misread what had been written. Still, for future reference, I don't think it should be changed to died at home, since there is no evidence for it at present. Sky83 (talk) 10:46, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Michael Jackson may have been dead at the scene, but for legal purposes at the moment he was pronounced dead at UCLA Hospital. The wording of the article now reflects this.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 10:53, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

The question also involves very significant BLP issues as to those living individuals who were present at the home, so any statements of fact should be carefully sourced. Steveozone (talk) 22:18, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Order of events?

"Murray said through his lawyer, Ed Chernoff, that he fortuitously went to see Jackson on the second floor of Jackson's home, and found him in bed, not breathing. There was a weak pulse in his femoral artery, the doctor said, and Jackson's body was still warm. He began to administer CPR.[2] Chernoff told CNN's Anderson Cooper that there was no landline in the bedroom, and although Murray had a cell phone, he did not know the address of the property. Murray alerted other members of the household staff by running downstairs and speaking to security guards and the chef, which led to a delay of around 30 minutes before the emergency services were called, the lawyer said.[5]"

Is the actual order of events incorrect here? From the way this paragraph describes it 1)Murray found him not breathing 2)He found a weak pulse on MJ 3) He started CPR 4) He ran downstairs to tell someone to call 911. If that's the correct order then it doesn't make any sense. If he was found in the home not breathing, but he had a pulse then there would have been no need for CPR. That's not cardiac arrest - that sounds like respiratory arrest. I'm assuming that by "CPR" the sources mean rescue breathing or related techniques. Once you start performing CPR you don't stop until EMS arrive. This paragraph makes it seem as if Murray stopped in the middle of CPR, ran downstairs, and then, I'm assuming, returned to the second floor to continue CPR. I doubt that, as a cardiologist, he would do that. I know that there are no sources available (yet) that have the correct order of events, but I'm thinking that it should have gone like this: 1) Murray found MJ not breathing 2) Murray checked his pulse 3)Murray ran downstairs to ask for help 4)Murray returned upstairs and started CPR. Maybe I'm just not understanding it correctly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.174.86.53 (talk) 17:05, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

• For now the only source is Chernoff, Murray's lawyer. See his old CNN Anderson Cooper interview for detailed chronology.

  SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: How long did he actually perform CPR on Mr. Jackson before he realized he needed to make a phone call?
  CHERNOFF: Well, it would have been five minutes, maybe, 10 minutes. [...] He then ran downstairs at some point, yelled for help, got the chef, who was in the kitchen, to get security up there. By the time security got up there, then the call was made immediately. This entire time, with the exception of him running downstairs, he was performing CPR on Michael Jackson.

  I agree with you, strange story. Maybe Chernoff don't understand something correctly. Trycatch (talk) 21:41, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
• I agree that questions are raised as to what exactly happened from the moment that the Dr. recognized a problem. I would think, though, that at this point any discussion of such questions beyond stating the reports from reliable sources will inevitably involve speculation and OR. For instance, I'd speculate that one cannot continue rescue breathing forever without taking steps to ensure that more effective lifesaving resources are brought to the scene and a plan is in place to transport to a proper facility, and that if no one else is immediately present and taking those steps, then at an appropriate time, rescue breathing must be interrupted to take those steps. That principle is in fact inherent in CPR training in the US. Nevertheless, IMHO any questions as to whether that principle was properly implemented in this case are premature until more information, from reliable sources, is made available. Steveozone (talk) 22:15, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

B class?

I think this article is a B class already, thoughts? Great job everyone :) — Please comment R² 22:42, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Removing well-sourced material

Realist, you're removing material that is properly sourced. Can you say here what your objection is, rather than continuing to remove it? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 02:35, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Why is the following relevant to this article

Stuart Backerman, Jackson's publicist between 2002–2004, told The Vancouver Sun that, after the police raid on Jackson's Neverland Ranch on December 22, 2003, in connection with the child abuse allegations, Jackson turned to the Nation of Islam for help, on the advice of his nanny, Grace Rwaramba, and his brother, Jermaine. Louis Farrakhan and his son-in-law Leonard Muhammad, the Nation of Islam's chief-of-staff, arrived from Chicago, at first to provide security, but they also "took over Michael's business and isolated everybody," according to Backerman, who resigned as a result.[35]

Dr. Tohme Tohme, a Lebanese businessman also reportedly affiliated with the Nation of Islam, has acted as a personal adviser. Ian Halperin writes that Tohme has said at various times that he was the ambassador of Senegal, a Saudi Arabian billionaire, and an orthopaedic surgeon, though he has no medical degree. He was named in a March 2009 affidavit in Los Angeles Superior Court, where he was alleged to have contacted an auctioneer of Jackson's memorabilia, invoked "Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam's" interest in Jackson's life, and said that if the auctioneer did not do as Tohme requested, "lives are at stake and there will be bloodshed."[16][28]

I just don't see the significance in the slightest. — Please comment R² 02:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The relevance to the death is that news organizations are drawing a link between Jackson's death and the people he surrounded himself with, alleging that they didn't act in his interests, financially, emotionally, or in terms of his physical health. The material is well-sourced to mainstream publications in connection with the death. Why do you object to it? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 02:42, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't see a link to the death, the section doesn't explain that the media are making these links, maybe it's not explained properly. The section itself doesn't seem to have anything to do with his death. The section doesn't explain how these people are "bad", "greedy" or controversial. All the section tells us is that a religious group had connections to Jackson in his final years, but the section does not explain how or if it links to his death. — Please comment R² 02:52, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

We don't have to explain that the media is drawing the link, because it's obvious from the sources. We don't want an article that says, "The NYT reported X, the LA Times said Y, and the W/Post published Z." In-text attribution is appropriate for anything that only one organization has reported, but if it's widely reported, then not. The Nation of Islam link is that they reportedly isolated him from everyone else in his final years. That might clearly impact on his death. Whether true or not, I have no idea, but it has been published in multiple reliable sources. All we do is publish what the mainstream sources are saying in relation to his death. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 02:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

When I wrote about you removing large amounts of material, I wasn't only referring to the Nation of Islam. You went through the article today and practically decimated it without explanation. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 03:00, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

For example, why did you remove this quote, cited to Ian Halperin?

His staff said he was worried about the London concerts. "He wasn't eating, he wasn't sleeping and, when he did sleep, he had nightmares that he was going to be murdered," one of them told Halperin. "He was deeply worried that he was going to disappoint his fans. He even said something that made me briefly think he was suicidal. He said he thought he’d die before doing the London concerts. He said he was worried that he was going to end up like Elvis. He was always comparing himself to Elvis, but there was something in his tone that made me think that he wanted to die, he was tired of life. He gave up. His voice and dance moves weren't there any more. I think maybe he wanted to die rather than embarrass himself on stage."

SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 03:07, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Jackson and other family members have spoken out against him. He claims to have got into the inner circle of the Jackson family, who highly refute everything he says or even that they know him. Hardly passes WP:RS in my opinion. — Please comment R² 03:40, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

We can't have a situation where someone rejected by the Jacksons ipso facto ceases to be a reliable source. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 03:43, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

But what makes him reliable? He is a tabloid journalist. The notion that he actually got into the Jackson fold is laughable. He's releasing a book just after the death, come on. His claims carry no weight, even Rolling Stone have rebuked him as a liar, after he claimed they gave him an important journalism award. — Please comment R² 03:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The problem for us is that his material's being widely reported, and his book is coming out of July 7, which will give him more coverage. It's difficult for us to say we're deciding that a source other news organizations are publishing is not worth mentioning. What we can do is note where people are saying such-and-such isn't true, as we did with the nanny story, for example (which wasn't Halperin but which I believe you also removed). SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 04:13, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Rolling Stone didn't "rebuke him as a liar." They wrote, "The first line of Halperin’s biography reads 'Ian Halperin is also a former winner of the Rolling Stone magazine Award for Investigative Journalism.' This came as news to us, so we looked in our own archives and discovered this claim has been greatly exaggerated: He did win an RS honor, but it was the College Journalism Award in 1985 and it was split among the staff at Concordia University's student newspaper in Montreal." They called his claims about Jackson's health "intriguing" and noted that Jackson had been seen in a wheelchair. [7] SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 04:17, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Can you say why you removed from the collapse section: "It was widely reported that he had received an injection of Demerol at 11:30 a.m., though his physician, cardiologist Conrad Murray, has said he neither furnished nor prescribed Jackson with Demerol"? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 04:41, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

You also removed some references, including the tape of the emergency call. Can you say why? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 04:55, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

"New York Congressman Peter King published a video on YouTube in which he spoke out against the excessive media coverage of the death of Jackson, stating that it was inappropriate that the media should glorify the life of a "child molestor" and "low-life" simply because he "may have been a good singer" and "did some dancing"[59]."

This part also should be deleted .... Elmao (talk) 17:48, 6 July 2009 (UTC)