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Does anyone understand just how disrespectful it is to be called by a name forced upon you to protect your freedom and then even after death to be referred to as that false, forced name rather than your true identity? Prioritise Jina before Mahsa. Show some respect. I honestly expected better from Wikipedia intellects. SolisKay (talk) 02:23, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Opening a merge discussion with reference to the previous and unresolved informal thread at Talk:Mahsa_Amini#Merge to Death of Mahsa Amini. The content is duplicated across the two articles. The biography article emphasises that the subject was a "shy, reserved resident" of her hometown who avoided politics prior to her death, and contains details about anniversaries and memorials which are missing from the "death of" article. Belbury (talk) 07:50, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This article is already starting to get lengthy and I don't think merging in an article about a person who passes Wikipedia's notability guidelines in their own right is the right choice. TarnishedPathtalk08:16, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article is currently 3200 words, falling below WP:SIZERULE. The anniversary and memorial content should definitely be in this article. If we replaced the current "Victim" section here with the "Early life" content from the biography article, that would only add around 300 extra words.
Both the death and the subject are certainly notable, but per WP:BIO1E (and other "death of" articles on Wikipedia where the victim was not a prominent public figure prior to their death) we may not need two separate articles to reflect this. Belbury (talk) 08:58, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:BIO1E: "The general rule is to cover the event, not the person. However, if media coverage of both the event and the individual's role grow larger, separate articles may become justified" emphasis mine. There is sufficient coverage of both the individual and their role in bringing about subsequent protests as well as the event of her death itself to justify separate articles. TarnishedPathtalk09:07, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see that media coverage of Mahsa Amini as an individual, unconnected to the event of her death, has grown over time. The biography article still only has a few sentences about her Kurdish name, her personality and her studies. Where her family have gone into greater detail about her politics and health, that is in response to government statements about her death.
Support there is several overlapping paragraphs including the family, death and early life. If both pages are merged it will be not necessarily bigger. Shadow4dark (talk) 15:19, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both article are notable and have there own contents which are related directly to them. It is quite natural some paragraphs be overlapping because of the nature of the subjects. It is wondering why some users want to merge these articles but there are same articles in Wikipedia like George Floyd and Murder of George Floyd and those users are not interested to merge them or even providing discussion for it. However theses articles are related to political matters in Middle east and maybe some people who are in the opposite side want to merge these articles but Wikipedia has it's own rules. ThanksAlijenabH (talk) 18:37, 4 October 2024 (UTC)— AlijenabH (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
The editor isn't mentioned there. Until such time as you start an investigation on this editor and that they are confirmed as a sock you're engaged in speculation. TarnishedPathtalk00:47, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Mahsa Amini article was created by a sockpuppet of User:Khabat4545 who used at least two eight other sock accounts to support themselves in the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mahsa Amini. I don't know if it's worth an SPI, but it's relevant context that the article creator has used single-purpose sockpuppet accounts to oppose deletion/merging in the past. I'll add an SPA template to the comment above. --Belbury (talk) 18:57, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That might be an argument for deletion if the article did not have significant edits by other none-sock editors. Given that the article has significant edits by multiple editors, who aren't socks, that isn't an argument for anything. TarnishedPathtalk23:08, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There was no {{old afd}} template on the biography article talk page, so until my previous comment I hadn't realised that this issue had previously been discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mahsa Amini in October 2022. There was a rough consensus to merge the two articles at that time, while recognising that a separate biography might be created in future once there are more good sources available describing her life story, and details about who she was as a person. Is that the case, two years on? --Belbury (talk) 18:57, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that you probably do not have any information about Iran and women in Iran and their fifty-year struggle for freedom. All sources indicate that Mahsa Amini stood against Iran's mandatory hijab law, and because of this, she was arrested and died there. Because of this courageous act, she became famous and all the women and girls of Iran try to stand and resist against the forced hijab like her since 2022. The rest of the details of her and her family's life are also given in the sources, which I suggest you study and do not judge without studying. AlijenabH (talk) 18:29, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand the context. The question is whether current sources describe her personal life in more detail than the sources did in October 2022, because that was the crux of the "merge for now" AfD closure. Belbury (talk) 13:37, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes certainly now the sources specially the persian sources give you more information in detail not only about her but about her parents. Even there are more photos and videos of her which have been recently published. AlijenabH (talk) 01:20, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comparing the October 2022 version of the biography to the current one, the only additions I can see are that:
her mother was an active member of the Parents and Teachers Association for three years at various schools
Amini did not follow the news
she did not have many friends and mostly socialized with her relatives
she was admired by her teachers as a model student
she aspired to be a doctor rather than, as the earlier version states, a lawyer
she had temporarily set aside her ambition to become a doctor
she belonged to a moderately religious, middle-class family that cherished their children
there are some sentences about how she chose to wear hijab half-heartedly, did not observe the hijab in various events such as weddings and wore traditional Kurdish clothes that do not have a hijab and partially observed hijab when traveling to tourist areas but none of these statements are adequately sourced at present
The personal life section has gone from around 300 words to around 500 words in that time. If sources since 2022 have provided more detailed information about Amini's life, not much of this has actually been added to the article. Belbury (talk) 08:34, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dear @Belbury, I am truly sorry, but your unfair criticisms are not acceptable. Firstly, the day-to-day details of her life is not necessary and even not possible to be included in the article, as no articles about famous individuals on Wikipedia contain such information. Secondly, based on the conclusions of the previous disscussion Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mahsa Amini it was recommended: The result was merge with an option to split in the near future. There is no mention of article expansion, as that is unfeasible for any of Wikipedia articles. Even they has said about George Floyd there are multiple pages about him, including the aforementioned bio bearing his name.
Moreover, upon reviewing the article's history of Mahsa Amini, I observed that numerous contents have been deleted for various reasons such as sockpuppetry, and these materials should be reinstated.
As I mentioned, there seem to be several users in the history of these articles who likely hold opposing political views and have removed a substantial amount of information from these articles. Nevertheless, I believe it is crucial and enough just to understand what makes her renowned. AlijenabH (talk) 03:04, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The only significant removal I see in the history is this edit of a user taking out 3k of "excessive non encyclopedic details" five months ago, most of which seems to be either unsourced or unsupported by the sources. Is there anything removed by that which you'd consider to be "crucial", and which can be sourced? Are there other specific removals which you think should be restored? Belbury (talk) 08:51, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All changes are in the history of both articles and it is accessible easily for everyone. The first version of Mahsa Amini was this and you can see how much her personal life information have been removed. Some destructive changes like this or this or this and this and this and this and too many other small and big changes.Some of them have been reverted but some of them never. Even the photo of infobox of Death of Mahsa Amini has been deleted whereas it is used in the persian wikipedia like this. Why did they removed this photo while it was Ok about copyright, I don't know. Also I'm wondering why some users in wiki english are determined for monthes and years to destroy the articles related to Mahsa Amini whereas there are millions of articles in this wiki which need to be improved???!!!! I think they have personal reasons for that and they are not looking for wikipedia improvement.
In persian wiki you can see there are too many articles related to Mahsa Amini including her bio and her death and Her funeral and so on. So why we must not have them in english wiki?
At the end Dear @Belbury let's finish our discussion here because there are too many things to discuss. I hope wiki english manager do the best to this articles. AlijenabH (talk) 17:11, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
