Talk:Death in Paradise (TV series)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Name the murderer?

Should we really be naming the murderer - it would be a huge spoiler for someone looking at the page to see if the show looked good, having heard about it but not watched it before. Maybe we are supplying too much information? Bruno Russell (talk) 08:18, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:How_to_write_a_plot_summary#Spoilers: "Information should not be intentionally omitted from summaries in an effort to avoid "spoilers" within the encyclopedia article." --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 12:19, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• I don't think we should show the murderer. I write a lot of these summaries and you can be subtle about it without giving the murderer away. I wrote some of the summaries here because they were often copyvio but i did not list the murderer and think they should be removed. However, if the episode list leads to an episode article then the plot summary there should give away the murderer as spoilers would be expected.REVUpminster (talk) 15:33, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

What's your justification for contravening WP guidelines, as outlined above? --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 18:00, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• I follow this part of the section you mention "However, when summarizing a plot and choosing what details to include, editors should use discretion. The advantages of exhaustive coverage of the work are in dynamic tension with the desire to preserve the artistic qualities of the work for readers.[6] Wikipedia should contain potentially "spoiling" detail where it substantially enhances the reader's understanding of the work and its impact but be omitted when it merely ruins the experience of the work of fiction for our readers" Stating the murderer in a short summary is not needed and as I said an individual episode article can be created with more detailREVUpminster (talk) 19:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. I should have read the guideline more thoroughly. Including the identity of the murderer as standalone data the way it is now in the article enhances nothing. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 20:54, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I guess if we were writing articles for each episode we would name the murderer in that case, as part of the plot summary, but here it seems unnecessary as we are only providing a brief outline of the episodes. Paul MacDermott (talk) 18:59, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Death in Paradise (TV series)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Khazar2 (talk · contribs) 23:14, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I can take this one. Thanks in advance to everybody who's worked on it! Comments to follow shortly. -- Khazar2 (talk) 23:14, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

First, let me apologize that you've had to wait so long for a review; the backlog's really been terrible at GAN lately.

This article seems like it's off to a good start in many respects; the description of the characters is particularly well-fleshed out, and some parts are well-sourced. Other areas seem to need work, however, and it appears to me overall that this will need substantial expansion and rewriting to become a GA. You may want to look at a sample series GA like Arrested Development (TV series) or 24 (TV series) to get a sense of what's usually included.

Some specific suggestions:

• The lead needs to be rewritten to better summarize the body; no new information (the show's renewal for Season 3) should be given in the lead per WP:LEAD.
• Numerous short sections should be combined or expanded per WP:LAYOUT
• The section "Theme Song" lacks sources and appears to be WP:OR
• No critical response is included, though a Google search immediately confirms that reviews exist.
• Almost no information on the show's creation/production is included, such as its inspiration, its casting, its influences, etc.
• The reliability of some blog-like sources such as tvwise.co.uk should probably be doublechecked.
• More information should be given in the citations of bare links, and the one that's written in French should be at least partly rewritten in English.
• Episode counts for characters need citation as a statistic/figure
• "Character had a major role in the most recent series (Series 2)" -- should be rewritten per WP:REALTIME; will quickly go out of date.

Since there's significant work to be done here, I'm going to close this one and not list it for GA at this time. I hope you'll consider renominating once you've addressed the above points, however--this sounds like an interesting show, and I'd love to see it get to GA. I'll do what I can to make sure it doesn't have so long a wait next time (either reviewing myself, or recruiting someone else to do so).

Thanks again for all your work, and best of luck with this one in the future! -- Khazar2 (talk) 23:40, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, shouldn't Harry the Lizard be named as a recurring character? --82.14.248.55 (talk) 21:27, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Corrected San Francisco Station: airs on KQED, not KQEH...73.170.171.202 (talk) 23:17, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Info

episode 4.4 It looks like Camille leaves for good and sergeant Cassell becomes Detective Sergeant and a new officer JP Hooper takes her place.REVUpminster (talk) 14:45, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Guest cast included?

I believe that the guest cast is incredibly relevant to this page. Not only do they feature on the opening titles, as CREDITED main characters but this listing has been done with many other pages. I see no reason to remove it. In other shows, maybe, but in this show guest cast form an integral part of the main show, and are, therefore, relevant to this page. Lorry43424 (talk) 19:35, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

The guest cast needs to be covered in prose, not a list. Adding a massive long list of actors serves no purpose to readers of this article, apart from saying "Actor x was in Episode Y", this would be far better if it were merged into the List of episodes article. Wikipedia is not a indiscriminate collection of information, a list of actors who appeared in a single episode of a show fits that bill exactly. - X201 (talk) 09:04, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

If the guest member of the cast was truly notable, then it could be worth adding them to the episode synopses at List of Death in Paradise episodes in a similar manner to List of Jonathan Creek episodes, even though that could use improvent itself by converting to prose. I would NOT recommend following the system at List of Agatha Christie's Poirot episodes which seems to forget to mention synopses at all, seemingly in favour of listing every bit-part actor!!! --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Fine, I concede. But I would appreciate some help in adding those names, according to the original list I devised, on the episode list page for Death in Paradise. Thank you. --Lorry43424 (talk) 16:37, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Should there be a separate page for characters?

The list of Characters in the show is growing slowly more complex, with 3 categories now on the page - Current, Past and Recurring. As with other shows, for example Waterloo Road, is it feasible to suggest we create a new page - 'List of Death in Paradise characters.'???Lorry43424 (talk) 08:53, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

The table only contains nine people, and the Recurring Characters section is less that two lines. I can't see a need for a separate article. - X201 (talk) 09:01, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I think you're mistaking the 'Characters' section for 'Cast.' The former, which I meant originally, is considerably larger.Lorry43424 (talk) 09:53, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Ah, yes, so I did. Its close to fork territory. - X201 (talk) 10:27, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Original language of the filming ?

In which language was filmed the series ? French or English ? Apparently the distribution was made in the UK two years before France so it would be English ?

--AXRL (talk) 00:10, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

List of characters

Shouldn't 'Harry the lizard' be included? (And why aren't there other lizards flitting around?) Jackiespeel (talk) 16:29, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

It seems that Selwyn Patterson (the commissioner) should not be termed a "Main" character: he only appears from time to time, usually briefly, and not in each episode. "Recurring" seems a better description. --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 21:41, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree, although it may be that he is listed 'officially' as main cast, by the BBC for example. The Raincloud Kid (talk) 23:23, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Should the cast list in the initial paragaph be amended?

Should the cast list in the initial paragraph be amended to include Joséphine Jobert and Tobi Bakare, given that they now comprise part of the main quartet? Younotmenotyou (talk) 15:47, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

I have rewritten with enough information for a reader to look at the article itself for the detail REVUpminster (talk) 16:49, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the cast list in the primary paragraph would consist of only those who were one of two primary characters, according to the opening titles. Lorry43424 (talk) 16:48, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Proposed merge with List of Death in Paradise Characters

Does not warrant a new page just for deaths of the characters. Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 06:47, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

What do you mean by this phrase - 'just for deaths of the characters.' Deaths? What? You confuse me. Lorry43424 (talk) 08:33, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Does no one else actually want to discuss this? If not, i'll assume there isn't an issue.Lorry43424 (talk) 18:21, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

As along term editor of this page I do not think it should have been separated as there is not enough to justify it. They do not have any references that will lead to accusations of original research and copy vio and being a TV guide.REVUpminster (talk) 19:01, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying, and I hear you. I understand you're much more experienced than me; I've only just started this, but nevertheless the list was growing far too elaborate and I, personally, think there is enough material and information to justify a new page, as the previous format was beginning to ruin the fluency and efficiency of the original page. This would not be the only television programme to have its own character page, and given that the most recent series of the programme has added a few new characters and disposed of others, perhaps it was time for this? Happy to discuss further, and reach some sort of ceasefire!Lorry43424 (talk) 21:53, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't believe there is a serious issue here. There is enough material to justify a new page, so maybe we should just leave it at that.Lorry43424 (talk) 14:57, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Factual errors

Should there be a list of factual errors / mistakes in the episodes?

E.g., in period 2, episode 3, a reference is made to President Nixon receiving two ounces of Da Hong Pao tea. This is held to be urban legend (but of course Poole may legitimately believe it)

Also, toward the end there is shown a telescope used for looking at people on the beach. But the telescope is an astronomical Newton reflector, equatorially mounted (a problem when you're using it terrestrially anywhere else than on the North Pole; ah well, at least they got the latitude right), and Camille looks through the viewfinder which is mounted in the wrong direction! As she would have found out if she had tried to use the actual telescope... 188.238.156.195 (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't really think that would be a necessary section; most TV shows will have errors of some sort that don't get a section on their pages. Maybe if there was one particularly glaring error, but there isn't one that I know of in DIP. The Raincloud Kid (talk) 16:50, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, Danny JJ still wears one or two straight stripes on his epaulettes to show seniority over Gary Carr, but Gary Carr became a sergeant, yet never wears sergeant's chevrons? Maybe there was an ep where the promotion fell through and I have forgotten it? Vince Calegon 10:13, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

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Plot holes

The series does seem to contain increasing plot holes (as distinct from 'simplifying things for the purpose of the 1 hour time slot') to the point where 'the willing suspension of disbelief' is disrupted (eg with the last episode of series 6 - no reporters to record the mayoral candidates voting, and no other early voters to disrupt the murder, and in many cases the grounds for arrest are circumstantial. 86.191.127.121 (talk) 11:26, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Do remember that this is an encyclopedia not a review or a forum. Having said that I saw the episode and, well... Britmax (talk) 12:42, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

And 'spotting the plotholes' can be part of the fun (and useful training for intending (fanfic) writers). 109.148.156.64 (talk) 11:20, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Updated characters photo

It's good that this article has a photo of the original team (Richard Poole, Camille Bordey, Fidel Best and Dwayne Myers) but wouldn't it also be good to have an updated photo alongside (beneath) it? One with Myers together with Florence Cassel, JP Hooper and either Humphrey Goodman or Jack Mooney? I'd do it myself but I am very bad at using images on Wikipedia, so if someone else knows how to do it that would be great! Thanks! The Raincloud Kid (talk) 19:21, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Island spelling

In the subtitles I saw, it was always spelled "Sainte Marie", though the characters pronounced it as "Saint Marie". Subtitling error, I suppose? 86.132.143.96 (talk) 19:44, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

In all representations within the filmed episodes it is Saint Marie such as the court house, the newspaper, festivals featured etc. It took along while to get it accepted there was no hyphen because of different media including the BBC which sometimes had it and other times not. Let us assume the subtitlers got it wrong.REVUpminster (talk) 20:25, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

They've basically sown confusion by anglifying the place. In French it's always Sainte (feminine) Marie, but in anglicising it, they should be pronouncing it like English "saint", not like the French (masculine) "saint". I've just watched an episode. Don Warrington pronounces "saint" as in English, but Danny JJ, Ben Miller and Sara Martins pronounce it as a French masculine. Sara is Portuguese, but works in France. I can't imagine what she is thinking. Vince Calegon 18:57, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Josephine Jobert recent addition

She was not in the first several seasons. GeneCallahan (talk) 03:50, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Are we too jaded/indoctrinated/white to recognize the racism here?

Surely someone, somewhere, reliable must have commented on the overt racism in this series: the master race comes in and shows all the jungle bunnies* how things are done, what intelligence is and why that master race still should have its Empire & lord over the rest of us?! (*Please pardon the atrocious expression, but that's what I think the basic racist message is!) Anyone ever seen anything on that which could be added to this article? I dearly hope so. The absence of it is an eyesore, in my honest opinion. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:05, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

I've sen no such suggestion, and my own original research would be that the English "star" is seen making frequent social faux pas, and couldn't solve the crimes without the local crew. The only overt "racism" I've seen are blatant attempts at silly anti-French comments. But each to their own view, I say. HiLo48 (talk) 23:20, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Who is "the rest of us"?. It has a British and French lead because it is an Anglo/French co-production. Danny John Jules is a Londoner. Perhaps the Madonna Grayson Perry, Daily Telegraph 2 Oct 2018, should be the next lead; unfortunately he is not black but covers everything else. REVUpminster (talk) 06:22, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Reply: everyone not British and especially not white. The show is right to be elitist British white just because it's a British production? Hm. I've seen enough of it to be able to judge fairly that the summary at the end of each episode clearly makes the point: in comparison to his little helpers we are seeing a British white übermensch superciliously, albeit with a bit of comedy (so useful in propaganda), explaining what's what to all the rest of us non-British ninnies and the non-white dodo birds staged as onlookers to speechlessly admire the Britishness and white wittiness and smarts of it all. Sad that such extraordinarily overt racism should be defended on this page. I can only hope someone finds a reliable source that deals with it (in this show) less subjectively. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:34, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

In that comment you moved from discussing the show to discussing other editors. That is rarely helpful. And once it becomes negative, as it did there, becomes quite unaccpetable. HiLo48 (talk) 22:48, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

I clearly see extraordinarily overt racism in this show. That extraordinarily overt racism, as I see it, is clearly being defended in this discussion. If reacting to that is a personal attack, I'm sorry. It was not meant to be. I have the right to my opinion. Others have a right to defend what I consider to be extraordinarily overt racism. It's sad to see it being done here. And sad that the matter seems to be considered trivial. Perhaps I'm reacting out of my background, where seriously fighting extraordinarily overt racism, more successfully than here, has been a frequent task. I thought this would be taken more seriously and will now try to find sources as per above. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:26, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

I strongly recommend you stick to discussing the topic, and NOT others editors, in any way at all. As well as it contravening policy, you have no idea of the backgrounds of other editors, and the racism they may have seen themselves. (I've seen plenty.) You are right to go seeking sources. I would be truly interested in seeing what's out there. HiLo48 (talk) 10:35, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Since I've now been SHOUTED AT, please let me clarify: I am not calling anyone a racist by noting, as I see it, that racism, for whatever reason, is being defended here. Nor have I personalized this discussion by directing any comment at anyone, such as now is being done to me. Let's stop that! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:45, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps Doctor Who is for you; with a cast trying to cover all bases for the metropolitan elite ignoring the white flight, perhaps they are all racists, from the big cities of Britain. If you live in Britain the regional news program are an eye opener. REVUpminster (talk) 22:18, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

OK, I headed off and did some Googling, with "Death in Paradise racist" as my search string. Here's the first four hits that mentioned race in any significant way at all.....

- [1] - [2] - [3] and - [lauda.ulapland.fi/bitstream/10024/62936/1/Hasan.Mohamud.pdf]

(Sorry about the formatting. Some bits of Wikipedia are still beyond me.)

These are all surprisingly positive, tending to celebrate the predominance of non-white actors in a British show. But feel free to continue the research. HiLo48 (talk) 03:54, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

'Reversing the direction (or polarity) - what proportion of victims and murderers are white? 82.44.143.26 (talk) 15:43, 14 February 2020 (UTC)