Talk:Danielle Laidley

Gender transition retconning

I'm not an expert on Wiki guidelines but I'm not sure if Dani's article makes sense as it is.

The introduction states that "Laidley transitioned into a woman in December 2019." Dani's article detailing her playing and coaching career from 1987 through to 2015 uses she/her pronouns, which I don't think is correct. As far as I can tell there is no public evidence to suggest that Dani considered herself to be a woman during her professional career; the news article cited states that "She was ... undergoing a gender transition that began in December last year (2019)."

I think that using pronouns that Dani had not adopted at the time is misgendering her every bit as much as calling her a man today would be. The earliest available evidence that Dani had adopted she/her pronouns was an article from 2020 which stated that her transition began in 2019. The article should refer to Dani's professional AFL career using her name at the time, Dean, and the he/him pronouns she was using at the time (unless she reveals in the future that the article's facts were incorrect and she was a woman prior to 2019).

I'm looking at Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's article as my basis for this; Kareem changed his name from Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor Jr. His Wikipedia article refers to him as Alcindor while describing his history until the date he changed his name, with the article calling him Abdul-Jabbar from then on. This is the same treatment that should be afforded to Dean/Dani Laidler's page.

The page is now protected from revisions so I don't know if I'm able or allowed to correct it but I believe there should be some consensus before doing so either way.

106.69.36.182 (talk) 09:00, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

I’d say SOME pronoun use is needed in this article at least, “Laidley did X, Laidley did Y” just isn’t very good writing. Steve0377 (talk) 11:21, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree. I've replaced some of the "Laidley"s with she or her. Hopefully it reads more naturally this way. I saw some hidden text in the article that said the editor was avoiding pronouns to prevent the text from being confusing, but her name change and transition are clearly addressed in the lead so it doesn't seem to me that there's really much risk of that. Squeakachu (talk) 04:04, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

@SiberianCat: My reading of the first paragraph at MOS:GENDERID is that we should use language that fits the subject's identity as it is now, and that when the transition took place doesn't matter. It doesn't say anything specifically about repetitive use of someone's name to avoid having to use pronouns, but to me this article does not seem consistent with how other articles on living persons are written. Squeakachu (talk) 18:10, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

@Squeakachu: I was editing based on the style used for the Decathlon Career of Caitlyn Jenner, which has frequent use "Jenner" (Jenner trained, Jenner was, etc, rather than "she trained" and "she was"). I'll contact North Melbourne Football Club and ask for Laidley's preferred gender pronoun for pre-transition playing and coaching career. SiberianCat (talk) 02:07, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I see. If there's consensus that that's how we should be writing about trans athletes I won't argue the point, however little I may like it. Thank you for the explanation, I appreciate it. Squeakachu (talk) 06:10, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I wrote and published a book in 2013 about West Australian football, Laidley is mentioned - I'm not going to publish a second edition just to change the "his" to "her". In the present article, it is ludicrous to say Laidley debuted in the VFL in 1987 as a "she" - she's are not permitted to play in the VFL/AFL (as at 15/12/2021).

Just for avoidance of doubt, let me quote the first paragraph of MOS:GENDERID (policy on pronouns and names of trans/gender non conforming people):

Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with the name and gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person, waiter/waitress/server) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. This holds for any phase of the person's life, unless they have indicated a preference otherwise.

In regards to the unsigned comment, you are free to write whatever you want in your own biography, but there is policies on Wikipedia that have to be followed.MarkiPoli (talk) 11:42, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Proposal: move to Danielle Laidley

Danielle has a memoir coming out in August 2022. There is now enough coverage using the name Danielle Laidley that it might now be appropriate to move the article to that namespace. She was referred to as Danielle at the recent reunion of the 1996 AFL Grand Final players presented before the North Melbourne versus Sydney game on 7 August 2022. Danielle's instagram account also is @daniellemaylaidley07 with she/her pronouns. Storm machine (talk) 07:52, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 27 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 06:12, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

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Dani Laidley → Danielle Laidley – (Common name of subject) Cjhard (talk) 05:11, 27 January 2024 (UTC) Cjhard (talk) 05:11, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Women has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:09, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Australia has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:09, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Support per nom. APM (talk) 17:42, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Personal life section

The article uses the phrase "she admitted this" in regard to her gender transition 'admitted' sounds like there is a crime in transitioniong -I propose changing this to 'disclosed' or 'announced'. As the article is locked cant make the edit. What are peoples thoughts? Kregan88 (talk) 12:31, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

You may propose a formal edit request(click for instructions). I think it says admitted because this person was outed by a police officer("In May 2020, Laidley was outed as transgender after a police officer leaked photographs of her in police custody.") and she said it was accurate. Claiming the leaked information is accurate is an admission, not a disclosure. 331dot (talk) 12:35, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I have shuffled the wording a bit. See what you think, and feel free to suggest alternative tweaks. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 09:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

10:27, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I think thats much better -more objective. Cheers Kregan88 (talk) 10:29, 5 May 2024 (UTC)