Talk:David Miscavige

Semi-protected edit request on 2 May 2023

Change David Miscavige’s title from “Cleric” to “Cult Leader” 2607:FEA8:86A1:EE00:C96C:4D:4AFE:2E16 (talk) 23:24, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

 Question: The word 'cleric' appears nowhere in the article, and the page is already listed under Category:Cult leaders. What do you want changed? Tollens (talk) 23:33, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Height of David Miscavige

Height is irrelevant information to include in the infobox. This is not normal. Boomer tomb (talk) 03:11, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

The height was removed at 21:26 UTC on December 27, 2023. Boomer tomb (talk) 01:54, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Weirdness about the archives of this page

Why is archive 4 from 2014 to 2021, and archive 5 from 2017 to 2018? They shouldn't overlap. They should be in chronological order. Boomer tomb (talk) 03:13, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Looking at the edit history, a user manually created Archive 5 on 21:33, 23 August 2018 but didn't update the archive page counter from 4 to 5, so newer bot-archived threads have been going into #4. I moved the archive-5 threads into archive-4 in their correct order, blanked archive-5 and requested it be speedy-deleted. Further archives should now get added to the end of archive-4.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 11:05, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Titles

@Grorp: I just crossed-checked the references for "Captain of the Sea Org":

• Amy Scobee's book does not say this at all.
• Janet Reitman's book makes the statement but does not reference anything.

"C.O.B." (from Westbrook's book) is the only one that we can really be sure of. I'd prefer to prioritize academic sources such as Westbrook's book; these types of sources fit better with Wikipedia's NPOV and RS guidelines.

Since we can't agree on what Miscavige's currently used titles actually are, I'd suggest writing about this in a section below after sufficient research is done, but not in the introductory paragraph since it's contested. We're not even sure about whether the sources are backed by sufficient research.

Per MOS:LEAD, we are supposed to provide an accessible overview of the topic. If we have doubts about WP:V or WP:POV, then that shouldn't go in the lead section.

As a result, I've decided to put just "C.O.B." in the lead section for now. Please make discussions in the talk page, and I'm sure we can work together to improve this article.

Thanks for your work on Scientology articles by the way. I'm not opposing your edits per se, but am simply suggesting that we should collaborate in talk pages rather than making unexplained edits and reverts without discussing the reasons behind them. DjembeDrums (talk) 00:06, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

@DjembeDrums: Scobee's book absolutely says that! Below I have listed out even more sources that cover "DM", "COB" and "Captain"—with their quotes, and some screenshots for offline sources. Note that Reitman, Tobin, and Wright are journalists, not former Scientologists. Scobee and Rinder worked closely with Miscavige. As to your comment about Reitman ("makes the statement but does not reference anything"), she indeed describes her research for "Chapter 7. DM" starting on page 393 where she extensively lists the interviews and written sources she drew from.

The handles "DM" and "COB", and the title of Captain are not controversial or contentious. And because the statement "He is also referred to within the Scientology organization as "DM," "COB" and "Captain of the Sea Org"" is not contentious, there is no reason to expect or require a different standard of reliable source than Wikipedia guidelines recommend.

All of the changes were easily verifiable and should not have been reverted. And since you got the first 3 things wrong (Scobee, Reitman, and Westbrook), I am restoring the earlier version.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 05:41, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

DM

You might not find reference to "DM" in "scholarly sources" because they tend to be more formal. Based on what I read, "DM" is how he was referred to within Scientology, and is no different than calling L. Ron Hubbard "LRH". It is common in Scientology to use initials for things. Speaking of formal writing, you don't find "DM" in Rinder's book, but he uses it liberally in his online blog (one example).

1. Atack, Jon (1990). A Piece of Blue Sky: Scientology, Dianetics and L. Ron Hubbard Exposed. Lyle Stuart Books. p. 265. ISBN 081840499X. OL 9429654M. One of Miscavige's former superiors had this to say of "DM" as he is usually known:...
2. Childs, Joe; Tobin, Thomas C (2009). "Inside Scientology: High-ranking defectors provide an unprecedented inside look at the Church of Scientology and its leader, David Miscavige" (PDF). Digital Newsbook (215 pages). St. Petersburg Times. p. 214 (PDF). Archived (PDF) from the original on March 6, 2023. DM: David Miscavige, The ecclesiastical leader of Scientology since 1987.
3. Corydon, Bent (1987). "21. Hubbard's PR Biography Lies Exposed". L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?. Lyle Stuart. p. 165 (ebook). ISBN 0818404442. There was DM (David Miscavige) and... (Uploaded image of page 165)
4. Reitman, Janet (2011). Inside Scientology: The Story of America's Most Secretive Religion. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. p. 128. ISBN 9780618883028. OL 24881847M. Through these efforts, DM, as Miscavige was called, soon... (Uploaded image of page 128)
5. Scobee, Amy (2010). Scientology — Abuse at the Top. Scobee Publishing. p. 57. ISBN 9780692008010. Born April 30, 1960 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. His current position is Chairman of the Board of Religious Technology Center (COB RTC), which he assumed in 1987, some months after Hubbard's death. Among Scientologists, David is often referred to simply as his initials "DM" or "COB". (Uploaded image of page 57)

Captain

This is obviously a rank. In many organizations, including the US Navy, a person may be referred to as captain if he is in charge of a ship even if he has not actually attained the rank of captain. (See Commander (United States) § Naval and lead paragraph of Captain (United States O-6).) Hubbard patterned his Sea Org after the US Navy. Compare this photo of CAPTAIN Miscavige to US Naval Captain insignia.

1. Atack, Jon (1990). A Piece of Blue Sky: Scientology, Dianetics and L. Ron Hubbard Exposed. Lyle Stuart Books. p. 362. ISBN 081840499X. OL 9429654M. David Miscavige, by this time both a captain in the Sea Org and the head of the Religious Technology Center...
2. Reitman, Janet (2011). Inside Scientology: The Story of America's Most Secretive Religion. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. p. 139. ISBN 9780618883028. OL 24881847M. Miscavige's coup was now nearly complete. He had dubbed himself Captain of the Sea Organization and created two powerful new entities: the aforementioned RTC, which controlled and licensed L. Ron Hubbard's works, and Author Services, Inc. (ASI), which handled the proceeds. (Uploaded image of page 139)
3. Tobin, Thomas C.; Childs, Joe (June 21, 2009). "Scientology: The Truth Rundown, Part 1 of 3 in a special report on the Church of Scientology". St Petersburg Times. Archived from the original on August 5, 2009. The founder had elevated [the Broekers] to "loyal officer" status, a higher rank than Miscavige, a captain.

COB

Note that it is "COB" and not ever C.O.B.! Even Westbrook 2019 pg141 uses "COB" as a handle for the man (not just a post title). "COB" (pronounced see-oh-bee) is how the man is referred to; it is not simply a position title, like calling someone "boss" or "super"; there's an element of their position, but it refers to the person themself.

1. Childs, Joe; Tobin, Thomas C (2009). "Inside Scientology: High-ranking defectors provide an unprecedented inside look at the Church of Scientology and its leader, David Miscavige" (PDF). Digital Newsbook (215 pages). St. Petersburg Times. p. 213 (PDF). Archived (PDF) from the original on March 6, 2023. COB: Staff often refer to Miscavige as COB. He is Chairman of the Board for the Religious Technology Center, the trademark-holding body of Scientology.
2. Duignan, John; Tallant, Nicola (2008). The Complex: An Insider Exposes the Covert World of the Church of Scientology. Merlin Publishing. pp. 148, 157, 190. ISBN 9781903582848. OL 23214607M. Miscavige had since assumed the post of COB RTC or Chairman of the Board of the Religious Technology Centre the highest ecclesiastical authority in the Church of Scientology. (p.148) When I came back down a security guard, a Cherokee Indian, told me: "COB was here. You blocked his parking space." (p.157) I often saw the Chairman of the Board (COB), David Miscavige, swishing in from Ivar Avenue with his usual entourage of about twenty people. (p.190)
3. Hill, Jenna Miscavige. Beyond Belief: My Secret Life Inside Scientology and My Harrowing Escape. William Morrow and Company. p. 20. ISBN 9780062248473. OL 25424774M. From this point forward, everyone in the Church referred to him as COB, but to me, he was just Uncle Dave.
4. Rinder, Mike (2022). A Billion Years: My Escape From a Life in the Highest Ranks of Scientology. Simon & Schuster. p. 122. ISBN 9781982185763. When at ASI, Miscavige had called himself chairman of the board; he simply transferred his title to RTC to become Chairman of the Board RTC or COB RTC, often shortened to just COB. (Uploaded image of page 122)
5. Scobee, Amy (2010). Scientology — Abuse at the Top. Scobee Publishing. p. 57. ISBN 9780692008010. Born April 30, 1960 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. His current position is Chairman of the Board of Religious Technology Center (COB RTC), which he assumed in 1987, some months after Hubbard's death. Among Scientologists, David is often referred to simply as his initials "DM" or "COB". (Uploaded image of page 57)
6. Wright, Lawrence (2013). Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood and the Prison of Belief. Alfred A. Knopf. p. 249. ISBN 9780307700667. OL 25424776M. Rathbun continually urged Cruise to call "COB," as Miscavige is known in the church — Chairman of the Board.

  ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 05:41, 6 June 2024 (UTC)