Talk:Daughter of Emperor Xiaoming of Northern Wei/GA2
GA Review
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Reviewer: Madalibi (talk · contribs) 06:36, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
I will review the article in the next few days. Madalibi (talk) 06:36, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Ok, I'm back. Here is my first round of comments. I will eventually check the primary sources to see if the text stays close to what they say. Madalibi (talk) 13:01, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- It is reasonably well written.
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- It is factually accurate and verifiable.
- a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
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There are a few more issues with the article that I would like to address before promoting to GA, but I will do that tomorrow! Madalibi (talk) 16:20, 31 January 2014 (UTC) |
New (and last) round of comments
[edit]HYH.124: Here is a new round of comments, which will also be the last. This time I paid careful attention to the Chinese text cited in the references to see if it supports the information presented in the article. I found more issues than expected, so the new list ended up being quite long...
Note 3, an article on Yuan Cha, is a phony publication that simply copies the Wikipedia article on Yuan Cha. Because Wikipedia cannot be a source for itself, that reference should be removed.- Hi, it was actually a book and not any "article". You do not assume that the book was violating Wikipedia's copyright just because the book cannot be previewed. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 13:55, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
- What I mean is that this "book" consists of "High Quality Content by WIKIPEDIA articles", as it presents itself. The text that follows is copied from the Wikipedia article on Yuan Cha! Anyway that sentence already has a source, so I deleted this one. Madalibi (talk) 11:50, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
- It was indeed my mistake for not noticing it. Thank you! Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 13:43, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
- What I mean is that this "book" consists of "High Quality Content by WIKIPEDIA articles", as it presents itself. The text that follows is copied from the Wikipedia article on Yuan Cha! Anyway that sentence already has a source, so I deleted this one. Madalibi (talk) 11:50, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
- Hi, it was actually a book and not any "article". You do not assume that the book was violating Wikipedia's copyright just because the book cannot be previewed. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 13:55, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
She eliminated all who disagreed with her rule...
: the text says 太后多以事害焉, so "all" is exaggerated.- "She eliminated who disagreed with her rule" does not sound correct either... "Eliminated all" means she eliminated those who disagreed with her rule. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 08:56, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- Rephrased to "successfully eliminated many of her opponents". Madalibi (talk) 11:50, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
- "She eliminated who disagreed with her rule" does not sound correct either... "Eliminated all" means she eliminated those who disagreed with her rule. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 08:56, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
according to some historians in ancient China
: this is too vague, as well as misplaced in the sentence. Could you review the note about this issue above and refer to the secondary source instead? If you want to refer to official histories, you could say "According to the Book of Wei, an official history of the Wei dynasty compiled by...., the Empress Dowager...."- The statement is no longer there. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 12:27, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Please add characters for Yuan Yi.- Done. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 12:27, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Emperor Xiaoming gathered the people to oppose her...
: "the people" is too vague. Your source gives names like Yuan Cha and Liu Teng 劉騰. Yuan Cha should definitely be mentioned. And didn't Yuan Cha have the Empress Dowager removed from her post? This should also be mentioned, if only briefly, as well as the date of her return to power....causing deep hatred from his mother
: the text you cite only says 嫌隙屡起, which is nowhere near "deep hatred".- 胡氏多免黜: this part of the citation makes no sense on its own.
After several failed attempts to overthrow the empress dowager...
: well the emperor and Yuan Cha succeeded in doing that after they killed Yuan Yi.When she learned about the plot, she discussed strategies with the officials who supported her
: only one official is mentioned here, so "the officials" will not do; more seriously, the passage from the Book of Wei that you cite after this sentence (郑俨虑祸,乃与太后计) does not support the information! Chapter 13 of the Book of Wei sas that when she heard that Erzhu Rong crossed the Yellow River she had her hair tonsured! You can probably find more specific information in other chapters of the Book of Wei.As these events were occurring...
: do we know when Erzhu Rong crossed the Yellow River?- The original text was 适逢, which I thought it should mean the above. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 14:00, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
diverting the attention of officials so she could secretly carry on her plan to kill the emperor
: once again the context of the citation is different from what the text of the article is saying. 陰與太后謀鴆帝 means that Zheng Yan 鄭儼 and Xu He 徐紇 plotted with the empress because they knew Erzhu Rong was coming to Luoyang and were afraid that doom would fall upon them for having supported the dowager. Your source is not tying this to the daughter of Emperor Xiaoming as you do. Also here, Sima Guang was probably relying on the Book of Wei (ch. 13), which says that 肅宗之崩,事出倉卒,時論咸言鄭儼、徐紇之計. But instead of stating that court opinion attributed the emperor's death to Zheng's and Xu's plot, Sima Guang presents the plot as a certainty. And your text makes a connection Sima doesn't make, by tying the plot to the succession issue. "Diverting attention from officials" is just invented out of thin air!The chapter number of 北史 is missing from note.He was killed by Empress Dowager Hu, who colluded with officials from her faction to poison his wine
: this is not what the sources say. Book of Wei says that most people at court attributed the emperor's death to Zheng Yan and Xu He (see previous point). Chapter 13 of History of the Northern Dynasties, simply says that Zheng Yan, fearing reprisals, plotted again to have the emperor poisoned (復陰行鴆毒). The next sentence simply states that, "on the second month of that year [Wutai 1], Emperor [Xiao]ming died suddenly" (其年二月,明帝暴崩). No connection is made between the plot and the emperor's death. Making such a link would probably constitute original research. You should stick very close to the sources and avoid drawing your own conclusions!because the child was not yet a year old, the era name was not changed
: can you find a reference for the claim that the reign name was not changed because the child was less than one year old? After all Yuan Zhao was more than one year old and his reign era Wutai was also not changed.- This was a mistake and I Fixed it. It was because the year of her father's reign have not ended. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 13:52, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
- General comment: after reading the primary sources, I realize you barely mention any names. To give more flesh to the article, and for the sake of "completeness" (one of the criteria for GA), please add a few names! You should also add dates: when was Yuan Yi killed?
- I noticed that your comments are so comprehensive that they can already be applied to FAs! I added Yuan Yi's death year and the source to support it. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 16:19, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Yuan became the Emperor de jure
: I missed this one on first reading. In the article's last section, you present the views of scholars who disagree with this claim, so you can't present this as a fact here, especially with no source to support it.Just a few hours later...
: if one of your sources says "a few days later", you can't choose to disregard it or confine it to a note. You should present the two statements even-handedly, perhaps concluding the Sima Guang chose to rely on the Book of Wei for this.To exert her power as the highest ruler of Northern Wei, she addressed herself as Zhen...
: the passage that supports this information talks about the beginning of Hu's regency, right after the ascension of Emperor Xiaoming in 515. This sentence doesn't belong here, but in the first section....made officials address her as "Your Majesty"...
: the Chinese text cited says that 羣[not"戝"]臣上書曰陛下, not that they were ordered to. This passage originally came from Book of Wei ch. 13. It was simply copied into Beishi 北史 ch. 13.- Fixed. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 08:01, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
his son's death
: her son's death?- Fixed. Thank you! Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 12:28, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
The series of events involving his son's death and the installation of the infant girl and the three-year-old Yuan Zhao on the throne occurred to ensure the continuity of her regency.
: this unreferenced sentence is actually best referenced by the sentence 钊始生三岁,太后欲久专政,故贪其幼而立之, which appears at the end of the first sentence of that paragraph.- Done. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 10:54, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
two emperors at the same time
: reference?They were delivered to his camp at Heyin
: I should have asked this before, but where is Heyin?- Isn't it "the south coast of the Yellow River"? Well, it is actually referring to the Heyin County. See [3]. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 08:32, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- I remember seeing an English-language source giving the location. Maybe look up "Heyin" and "Erzhu Rong" on Google Books? Madalibi (talk) 12:56, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Isn't it "the south coast of the Yellow River"? Well, it is actually referring to the Heyin County. See [3]. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 08:32, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Erzhu later massacred over two thousand officials
: this sounds a bit dry. Officials who had helped the empress dowager? You are citing two secondary sources here: can you use them to flesh out this sentence a little?- Done. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 16:07, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
"Heyin" refers to the south coast of the Yellow River
: reference?- How can I cite sources to notes that are shown as footnotes?
- Have you tried using the usual note format? Madalibi (talk) 12:56, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- How can I cite sources to notes that are shown as footnotes?
Gao Huan and Yuwen Tai were generals during the Erzhu Rong era who respectively controlled Eastern Wei and Western Wei following the split of the dynasty, while Erzhu controlled the northern part of the empire
: you should probably put this in the text rather than in a note (with a reference of course).- I put this in the text but do not know where I can find references? Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 08:48, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Done, reference cited. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 13:01, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Official historical records have never listed her as a legitimate sovereign because she was a puppet under Empress Dowager Hu and reigned for less than a day.
You need a reference for this explanation.Criteria of notability for academics are fairly stringent (see WP:NACADEMICS), so I doubt these two researchers would deserve their own article: remove red links under Cheng Yang and Luo Yuanzhen?- Agree and removed. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 12:53, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Romance of Dynasties (历朝通俗演义): 通俗 in that title should also be translated.- Did not know how to translate, so I translated "Popular". Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 16:02, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Suzong, Emperor Xiaoming, Yuan Xu (510-518)
: should be 528- Fixed. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 07:10, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
I don't think the lists of longest reigning monarchs and emperors belongs in the "See also".- Done. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 13:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
- Chapter numbers are missing from notes 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 29. Madalibi (talk) 12:56, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- @HYH.124: In the current (25 May 2014) version of the article, chapter numbers are missing from notes 18, 20, 21, and 32. Madalibi (talk) 07:50, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
We've come too far to stop, so let's work on this new set of issues so that we can finally promote the article! Madalibi (talk) 06:28, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- @Madalibi: Some comments resolved, some replied. Huang (talk in public in private | contribs) 09:58, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- Hi HYH.124, and thank you for making all these modifications! I'm a bit busy in real life, so I might need a few days to check them all out. In the mean time, feel free to continue on your improvements. Cheers! Madalibi (talk) 02:49, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Conversation
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- The result was not listed. HYH.124 (talk) 11:42, 18 March 2014 (UTC)