Talk:Dada Bhagwan

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At this time, this article has no third party reliable sources explaining the notability of this person. It is written in a glowing advertising style, referenced only by self-published web sites. Are there any neutral external third party sources that could be used as sources for an article? Weregerbil 09:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am working on reducing the advertising style of the page and will look into neutral sources. Sethie 02:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See: The Intimate Other: Love Divine in Indic Religions by Anna S King and JL Brockington p198 onwards. --Simon D M (talk) 15:15, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article reads like an advertisement and does not seem to be a balanced account. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.177.170 (talk) 20:56, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Self-realization

I've proposed moving some content about this tradition's view of Self-realization from that article onto this page. Discussion is on the self-realization article's talk page. - Owlmonkey (talk) 19:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, the Self-realization article was converted to a disambiguation page and the following content was removed. I'd just ask that the editors here who know this material well can make sure that none of the following is lost by incorporating it into this article as appropriate. Thank you. - Owlmonkey (talk) 21:50, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For Self realization, a living enlightened medium in the form of an Avatar (Gnani Purush) is required. According to Gnan Vidhi teachings, such enlightened beings are seldom born. However, when such beings are around, they are able to procure liberation for anyone who seeks it.
In Gnan Vidhi, Self-realization begins by asking the questions Who am I? What is the real truth? What is this whole world about? What or who is God?
In Gnan Vidhi, self realization is realizing the God is within each of us, and God is realized through enlightenment. It is said that when one achieves self-realization, it is like turning on a light switch, with the light instantly displacing the darkness. Similarly, it takes no time for the self enlightened being to dispel ignorance with the light of Knowledge.

Reinstating Original Page Name

Greetings to all editors who have been working to improve this page. I have made some changes today related to the name order of Dada Bhagwan and Ambalal Muljibhai Patel. Because this page's focus is on Dada Bhagwan, i.e. the spiritual leader, I believe this is more appropriate. Kindly see these other wikipedia pages organized in the same way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramahansa_Yogananda, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Vivekananda If you agree with this premise, are any of you able to change the page name back to its original format of "Dada Bhagwan"? Thanks for your input! P.S. I have also reinstated information pertaining to Dada Bhagwan museums and historical sites. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vorajinesh (talk • contribs) 13:04, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The sources you presented for museums were not reliable. Please read WP:RS. Also, most sources discuss him as A. M. Patel, so that is a more appropriate title. --Rahul (talk) 18:26, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted recent changes

I have removed the line "Dada Bhagwan is recognized as a spiritual leader within Gujarat, India.". The given reference "Dada Bhagwan Road". do not support this claim. Also, the person should be addressed by his name "A.M. Patel" and not with the honorific "Dada Bhagwan" in my opinion. I request other editors to please comment here before making these changes again. --Rahul (talk) 13:36, 12 April 2014‎ (UTC)[reply]

Clarification for Previous Changes

Actually want to understand the reason why we can not have the honorific name as "Dada Bhagwan", because as per this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pramukh_Swami the honorific name given here is "pramukh swami maharaj" though his name is "shantilal patel".Also Dada Bhagwan is famous name and people recognize him as Dada Bhagwan not as A.M.Patel. so then why we cannot have "Dada Bhagwan" ? Can you please give the better clarification for this ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Easyspirituality (talk • contribs) 13:02, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We cannot use Dada Bhagwan because most reliable sources use his name A.M. Patel. See for example Flügel, Peter (2005) 'Present Lord: Simandhara Svami and the Akram Vijnan Movement.' In: King, Anna S. and Brockington, John, (eds.), The Intimate Other: Love Divine in the Indic Religions. New Delhi: Orient Longman, pp. 194–243. Also, don't edit war. Discuss and reach a consensus before reverting again. --Rahul (talk) 17:34, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes that is fine but Peter has not only used A.M.Patel but also mentioned 'Dada Bhagwan'. So we can't judge on the basis of one book,as there are lot many books where 'Dada Bhagwan' is used. see this link : http://www.dadabhagwan.org/spiritual-media/books/. so if we compare the books then there are more books having 'Dada Bhagwan' name. so currently he is famous as 'Dada Bhagwan' name only, so why not to have 'Dada Bhagwan' ? --- Easyspirituality (talk)

The manual of style of wikipedia clearly says that "After the initial mention of any name, the person should generally be referred to by surname only, without an honorific prefix such as "Mr", "Mrs", "Miss", or "Ms", or by a pronoun." See: Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biographies#Subsequent_use. The other many books that you mention were not reliable sources. See WP:RS. --Rahul (talk) 05:09, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Talk is not about to have the honorific prefix such as "Mr", "Mrs", "Miss", or "Ms", it is to have the spiritual name "Dada Bhagwan". Moreover "pramukh swami maharaj" is used though his name is "shantilal patel" on the page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pramukh_Swami. So not getting, why we can't have "Dada Bhagwan"? --- Easyspirituality (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 05:53, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am not interested in what the pramukh swami maharaj page does or does not. The point is, the spiritual name "Dada Bhagwan" is not used in most reliable sources. I gave you an example, Flugel uses his name A.M. Patel. If you can show some reliable sources to use the name Dada Bhagwan, we can discuss further, but until then, we will use Patel. Also, be sure to read WP:RS to help identifying reliable sources. --Rahul (talk) 06:25, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thats what I am thinking if you are not interested in Pramukh swami page then why are you bothering about 'Dada Bhagwan' page. also Flugel used A.M.Patel and Dada Bhagwan both names so if you consider that as reliable source then you must consider 'Dada Bhagwan' name. From Pramukh swami page, it seems that wiki allowing to have spiritual name so we can go ahead with 'Dada Bhagwan'. --- Easyspirituality (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 09:38, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Flugel mentions that the disciples of A.M. patel calls him Gnani Purush, Dada Bhagwan or pratyaksha atmagyani. We can also mention that the disciples call him so. However, when referring to the subject, Flugel uses his full name. I have also shown Wikipedia policy which asks us to use last name. --Rahul (talk) 13:11, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki is allowing spiritual name 'Pramukh Swami' to use although his name is Shantilal Patel then why are you bothering about 'Dada Bhagwan' page? --- Easyspirituality (talk)

Response to third opinion request:

I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on Ambalal Muljibhai Patel and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes.

First, I see that some edit warring has been happening on the way that A.M.Patel / Dada Bhagwan is named in the prose of the article. Please stop this. It won't solve the problem.
How the subject is referred to after the first mention in the article is subject to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies#Subsequent use. Inserting the initials A.P., or using the name that does not serve as the article title, is wrong. The use of surname alone is perfectly respectful and is the norm in academic and encyclopedic writing.
The article title is a different matter, and this is probably quite a close call. Please note that the title of the Pramukh Swami article is irrelevant here, as Wikipedia considers each case on its own merits. The relevant policy for article titles is Wikipedia:Article titles, and especially its Use commonly recognizable names section:
One thing the policy says is "Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural." Later it says: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." However, please note the use of the word prefer in these quotes. It isn't an absolute rule, as the policy also says: "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources."

To some extent, I think you're making more of an issue of this than you need. There is a redirect page Dada Bhagwan, so readers can find the article by searching on either name. Hence, what you're really debating is your own preferences. But if you do wish to pursue it, the discussion needs to aim to establish what accurate, unambiguous name is used in the majority of reliable English-language sources for this person.

It would be good if some others who know the sources could give their views. But this page has less than 30 watchers. If you don't get more opinions, you could consider using the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard or raising and advertising an RFC. Regards, Stfg (talk) 12:40, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am responding to this discussion with no former edits made on this page. I agree with the former response that the editors here are debating only for their preferences. For justification and removing the looming confusion, I actually used the Google adwords tool where my exploration showed maximum search count for 'Dada Bhagwan', not A.M. Patel. This makes Dada Bhagwan a more popular term, which means the readers can find the relevant information based on that name as the keyword. Therefore, the consensus depends truly on the basis of preference or choice. Regards,Gracie Collins (talk)1:13, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Gracie Collins. May I just remind everyone that the policy calls for the name most commonly used in reliable sources. Google adwords and other such tools don't evaluate sources for reliability, so no conclusions can be drawn from the counts they give. --Stfg (talk) 09:32, 30 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 26 May 2014. The result of the move review was 'Closure endorsed'.

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. If there's more move warring, I'll move protect upon request. --BDD (talk) 18:08, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dada Bhagwan → Ambalal Muljibhai Patel – Ambalal Muljibhai Patel is more commonly used name. In reliable sources, such as Flügel, Peter (2005) 'Present Lord: Simandhara Svami and the Akram Vijnan Movement.' In: King, Anna S. and Brockington, John, (eds.), The Intimate Other: Love Divine in the Indic Religions. New Delhi: Orient Longman, pp. 194–243., this name is used to refer to the subject. However, Dada Bhagwan (which literally means "Lord Grandfather") is a title that his disciples gave him. This is not commonly used in reliable sources. Hence, in my opinion, the article title should be changed. --Relisted. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:56, 8 May 2014 (UTC) --Rahul (talk) 04:13, 30 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note to closer - I recommend admin closure only, as there has been some toing and froing on this issue, including a move-over-redirect even after the 3O request. For this reason, whatever the decision, would the closer please consider whether move protection should be applied to this page? --Stfg (talk) 09:36, 30 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually more commonly used name is "Dada Bhagwan" and not the Ambalal Muljibhai Patel. FLugel, Peter mentions both names in 'Present Lord: Simandhara Svami and the Akram Vijnan Movement.'. Also there are many other source such as Desperate Endeavors - a Hollywood film is made with the name and fame of Dada Bhagwan which is clearly mentioned in 'Times of India', 'The Indian Express'and 'Hindustan Times'. Another source, the spiritual Science Museum - A creation of pyramid spiritual societies movement (India) honored "Dada Bhagwan" in the category of '21st/20th Century departed Spiritual Scientists/Masters' with the Dada Bhagwan name. Even, the standing committee of Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation passed a resolution - renaming the stretch between Visat crossroads and Sabarmati crossroads as 'Dada Bhagwan road' and Zundal circle as Dada Bhagwan circle, which is retrieved in the Times of India. Rick Archer, interviewer at the batgap also refers his name as "Dada Bhagwan" in the 'Batgap interviews with Deepakbhai Desai'. So I would request to maintain the page name as "Dada Bhagwan". Vorajinesh (talk) 11:19, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Justification for not renaming the page title

Dada Bhagwan - I have already added one reliable source in the reference list - 'Spiritual Science Museum' - A creation of pyramid spiritual societies movement (India), which reveals the popularity of Dada Bhagwan name. Moreover this link - http://en.cyclopaedia.net/wiki/Dada-Bhagwan will give you better idea about more popularity of Dada Bhagwan name. vorajinesh (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:56, 30 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Neither of them is reliable source. "http://en.cyclopaedia.net/wiki/Dada-Bhagwan" actually uses excerpt from Wikipedia. --Rahul (talk) 13:47, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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